My response to shuttered "Busted a stealth wealth magnate today" thread

[pb4uski]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Senator Agreed. But when a BUSINESS does a transaction, cash is not preferable. A $6500 cash transaction borders on money laundering. The BUSINESS also needs to pay sales tax on any purchases, whether it is a vehicle, a couch or a lawn mower - even if purchased from a private individual. The government loses the ability to track income and expenses if you use cash.

You obviously don't know the definition of money laundering if you think a business buying a piece of equipment in cash from someone via craigslist is money laundering. In the case of cars I have sold there is a bill of sale and that would be their documentation.

Also, BOTH individuals and businesses need to pay sales tax on purchases from a private individual and in the case of vehicles that need to be registered, sales tax would be collected when the buyer registers the vehicle.

As a seller on craigslist, I would not take a check from an individual or a business who I don't know, so the buyer needs to bring cash (though I like the idea of meeting the buyer at their bank and having the bank issue me a cashier's check).

As I'm sure you know each paper currency says on it "This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private" so it is perfectly legal to do cash transactions. While the government may lose the ability to track income and expenses if you use cash, the government isn't entitled to track income and expenses. Rather, each taxpayer (individuals and businesses) are obligated to report their income and expenses when they do their tax returns and have appropriate supporting documentation for said income and expenses.

[dixonge]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FUEGO That dollar amount didn't surprise me at all. For higher priced cars ($12-15k+), I might expect buyers to offer something safer like a cashier's check drawn on a bank while I watched. But can't imagine it being a big deal for lesser amounts. It's not like we're trading cash in a back alley at night (with the lightning flashing overhead). We were inside a bank, covered with camera surveillance, middle of the day, bright outside, not in a dangerous part of town.

We sold a CRV several years back, got $11k for it. Buyer met us in a town halfway between our home and his. 90-minute drive for us. We met at a bank. We negotiated a slight discount. He pulled out a check and a plastic bag full of cash. We went inside and he had everything converted to a cashier's check for us, so we didn't have to drive back home with stacks of cash in our lap (or worry about counterfeit bills). It was to be used for an employee to drive around the state of Texas in.

I also sold a big pickup truck a few years ago. Buyer flew in from a city around 500 miles away, started it up. Gave it the once-over, waved his taxi off, then tossed cash on the driver's seat. I signed the title and bill of sale, he drove off. He also only had one arm. He owned a construction company and his employees had managed to total the previous vehicle.

I also sold a car on eBay Motors. A used car dealer in Ohio paid a driver to fly down and pick the car up and drive it back. Paid by PayPal if I remember correctly.

None of these types of transactions caused me so much as a raised eyebrow. There are a million stories out there. Most are legitimate scenarios.

[Lakewood90712]

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Originally Posted by REWahoo Where else: https://www.amazon.com/Mens-Crushabl...ds=porkpie+hat

I always called them "Popeye Doyle hats" from the French Connection.

[papadad111]

Cash gives negotiating leverage. It's amazing how I can still haggle the price down on a car or lawnmower or hobby toy by a few hundred bucks once the cash comes peeling out.

Cash is king. It's the only way I roll when buying or selling stuff. Too much forgery of cashiers checks, stolen credit cards and the like.

Either bring cash or don't bother showing up ...

[Senator]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pb4uski You obviously don't know the definition of money laundering if you think a business buying a piece of equipment in cash from someone via craigslist is money laundering. In the case of cars I have sold there is a bill of sale and that would be their documentation. Also, BOTH individuals and businesses need to pay sales tax on purchases from a private individual and in the case of vehicles that need to be registered, sales tax would be collected when the buyer registers the vehicle. As a seller on craigslist, I would not take a check from an individual or a business who I don't know, so the buyer needs to bring cash (though I like the idea of meeting the buyer at their bank and having the bank issue me a cashier's check). As I'm sure you know each paper currency says on it "This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private" so it is perfectly legal to do cash transactions. While the government may lose the ability to track income and expenses if you use cash, the government isn't entitled to track income and expenses. Rather, each taxpayer (individuals and businesses) are obligated to report their income and expenses when they do their tax returns and have appropriate supporting documentation for said income and expenses.

100% correct. And if a business is audited by the IRS, and they say all the business expense are done in cash, it makes for a much more difficult audit. Receipts would help explain expenses, and you only need a receipt for transactions over $75.

I could have a MUCH higher income if I could use that method of accounting for all my expenses. "Yep, IRS agent, the last $100K of my expenses were all expenses under $75. All miscellaneous business expenses..."

That's when the IRS assigns an income level to you, and you pay the amount they say. Or just disappear and open up a new company.

[pb4uski]

My dad had an all cash business when I was growing up... a car wash that operated on quarters (no credit cards back in those days)... never a problem (not even an inquiry IIRC). There are many other businesses that do transactions in mostly cash and it is rarely a problem. As a practical matter, an IRS agent isn't going to bite off a dispute that they have no chance of proving in tax court so unless there is some angle to prove unreported revenue they are not going to waste their time with it.

[Senator]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pb4uski My dad had an all cash business when I was growing up... a car wash that operated on quarters (no credit cards back in those days)... never a problem (not even an inquiry IIRC). There are many other businesses that do transactions in mostly cash and it is rarely a problem. As a practical matter, an IRS agent isn't going to bite off a dispute that they have no chance of proving in tax court so unless there is some angle to prove unreported revenue they are not going to waste their time with it.

Car washes and laundromats are well known to the IRS. They look at the vending machines, and water usage, and assign you a profit if you do not show one.

The IRS has detailed water statistics from many businesses, and many types of water using machines. They can tell how many cycles were used, and see how much you are charging. They know what expenses similar businesses have.

The IRS only goes to tax court of you take them there. It is very expensive. More likely, you get a large IRS bill and pay it, as it is the lesser or the two evils. Even if you win in tax court, you lose.

[H2ODude]

Quote:

Originally Posted by papadad111 Cash gives negotiating leverage. It's amazing how I can still haggle the price down on a car or lawnmower or hobby toy by a few hundred bucks once the cash comes peeling out. Cash is king. It's the only way I roll when buying or selling stuff. Too much forgery of cashiers checks, stolen credit cards and the like. Either bring cash or don't bother showing up ...

Absolutely. My only big cash experience was when selling my motorcycle. Guy showed up (said he owned a pawn shop, he did in fact know what he was doing). I think I'd just run an ad in the paper. I was asking I believe $11k or something like that. We couldn't come to terms but as he was walking away he whipped out $10k cash in 100's and said he could take it right there if I'd just sign the title over. I would not have agreed to that price if there would have been a meeting at a bank or checks involved. But to just sign the title and take cash and be done with it, SOLD. IIRC the wad was $10k exact so he knew what he was going to pay, although I suppose he had some extra in his pocket.

[ivinsfan]

Car Wash business all cash, watch out now we have entered into "Breaking Bad" territory

[jfn111]

Just before I retired I sold our two Harleys using Craigslist. Both sales were over $10,000. The first bike sold the guy paid in $100 dollar bills and the second sale we both had accounts at Wells Fargo so we met at the bank and they transfered from his account to mine.
I told anyone who called Cash Only!

[pb4uski]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Senator .....The IRS only goes to tax court of you take them there. It is very expensive. More likely, you get a large IRS bill and pay it, as it is the lesser or the two evils. Even if you win in tax court, you lose.

If what you state was correct then the tax court dockets would be close to empty..... safe to say, they are not. Though I give you credit for the strength of your convictions.

[ivinsfan]

I agree with Senator if you have to go all the way to tax court, even if you win it's a hollow victory after all the stress, tax accountant fees and legal fees, it's not like you can get IRA to pay your court fees.

[Senator]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pb4uski If what you state was correct then the tax court dockets would be close to empty..... safe to say, they are not. Though I give you credit for the strength of your convictions.

If it was that easy, there would not be as many IRS tax liens...

Figure a minimum of $5K for attorneys and accountants, likely much higher. Maybe you can argue the case yourself, maybe not. That is where a settlement comes in.

Do not forget, there are plenty of sovereign citizens that pay no income tax. If that was not legal, there would not be as many doing it.

[Frankie1926]

Admins on this board can be a little overzeoulous...


Sent from my iPad using Early Retirement Forum

[Gumby]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frankie1926 Admins on this board can be a little overzeoulous...

Perhaps that's an issue you'd like to take up with one of us by private message.

[ivinsfan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frankie1926 Admins on this board can be a little overzeoulous... Sent from my iPad using Early Retirement Forum

That's not really true,keeping this board civilized is their number one goal and one of the reasons it continues to flourish..after you hit a few thousand posts you can walk that tightrope yourself...

[Sunset]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Senator If it was that easy, there would not be as many IRS tax liens... Figure a minimum of $5K for attorneys and accountants, likely much higher. Maybe you can argue the case yourself, maybe not. That is where a settlement comes in. Do not forget, there are plenty of sovereign citizens that pay no income tax. If that was not legal, there would not be as many doing it.

My understanding is that the sovereign citizen claim to therefore not pay taxes or speeding tickets for attend trial for criminal actions consistently fails in tax/regular court.
Naturally that does not mean people won't try it as the promise of not paying taxes is attractive to many, even if it turns out to be wrong.

[MichaelB]

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBzJGckMYO4