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Old 11-10-2008, 05:00 PM   #61
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If you want to renounce any of the products and services that other people's kids will be making available to you, go right ahead and refuse to pay taxes that benefit children. And when you are old, be sure that you go to doctors and dentists who are aliens and hence have not used any services paid for by you. And ditto the trash collectors, the people who turn you over in the nursing home to avoid your bedsores, and .....

People who raise children, especially intelligent well educated children, are giving those who don't a massive free ride.

Ha
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You are missing something. You won't be consuming cash; you will be consuming real goods and services made and performed by real humans.

A common fallacy is to assume that the real economy equates to the monetary enonomy. It does not.

Likewise the real generational problem in much of the western world is not the amount of cash or assets in retirement or retiree medical programs, it is the number of young well trained workers.

I am certainly not advocating that everyone should have children, or that many people without children of their own don't do much to create a skilled and socialized follow-on generation. But it is annoying when people prattle the selfish and ill-informed line that you were taking. Where do you think your Doctors will come from, if not from the school system? You think that their own parents, in addition to feeding, clothing, and housing them, buying their medical care and physically and emotionally caring for them, should also be sole support of public schools? So that you can purchase the goods and services provided by somone else's children?

Ha
Stop going on and on about fallacious arguments, when you keep presenting a false dichotomy. It's not a choice between 1) schools paid for by everyone's property taxes and 2) Dumb kids. We may get both, you know. The US was able to provide essential goods and services long before we had property taxes pay for schools, and I wouldn't expect that to change if we directed the cost of education more toward the direct recipients of this investment.
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Old 11-10-2008, 05:02 PM   #62
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You do know (take it from a guy who knows the Saint's have never made it to the Superbowl) there is a nagging possibility neither the 'lame duck' outgoing pol's nor the newly victorious incoming have a clue as to the real cause of the current 'unpleasantness' or any ideas to fix it that will actually work.

Here's hoping Turbo Tax stays in business - the updates aren't too expensive, and I can afford any forth coming 'elegant solutions.'

heh heh heh - Saint's lost to the Dirty Bird's, weather's getting nippy like winter, and soo far still jaded enough to sleep night's in my 15th yr of ER.

Pat's still have a good team and Pssst Wellesley, SEC yield 5.8%, sometimes ER gets bumpy but somebody's got to do it - soldier on! .
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Old 11-10-2008, 06:28 PM   #63
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I can agree with this.
It always bothers me to hear people say "but rich people (people with capital) create jobs", as if "jobs" can be created out of nothing. The requirements for a job are a consumer who is willing to pay for something and a worker who is willing to do the work to produce it. Sometimes, it doesn't take much financial capital at all to get the work done - think of all the self-employed people with modest investments in their businesses. Sometimes it takes a lot of capital to buy the tools that will make the worker more productive.
But there is no reason to think that the person who provides the capital needs/deserves a better deal than the one who provides the labor.
Capital and labor are like water and ice - the same thing at different states.

Politicians like to point out the differences for class warfare and confuse the issues.

Labor earns money - tax the income
Labor saves (capital) money - tax the interest/dividends/cap gains
Labor put money (capital) into a business - tax the profits of the business and (possibly) the distribution to the owners - their income

Money is being taxed.

Water and ice.

How much and where it is taxed in the process is a legislative determination intended to meet the goals of the legislature.
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Old 11-10-2008, 07:10 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Abreutime View Post
Stop going on and on about fallacious arguments, when you keep presenting a false dichotomy. It's not a choice between 1) schools paid for by everyone's property taxes and 2) Dumb kids. We may get both, you know. The US was able to provide essential goods and services long before we had property taxes pay for schools, and I wouldn't expect that to change if we directed the cost of education more toward the direct recipients of this investment.
You miss my point. I agree that for the most part public schools are miserable failures. I would favor vouchers, since everyone obviously cannot pay for school. I also would favor a more controlled Euro type system, where you come out prepared to do something.

My mainpoint is that raising children to adulthood is the main task of each generation, which is mainly though not entirely done by the class called parents.

Parents themselves benefit from this effort, but so do all others.

And I will go on about it as much as I want to.

Ha
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Old 11-10-2008, 07:14 PM   #65
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Capital and labor are like water and ice - the same thing at different states.
This is not true. In manufacturing and agriculture capital can substitute to a great extent for labor. This is much less true in service industries. That is why service prices continue on up while manufactured goods get cheaper.

Ha
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Old 11-10-2008, 07:25 PM   #66
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This is not true. In manufacturing and agriculture capital can substitute to a great extent for labor. This is much less true in service industries. That is why service prices continue on up while manufactured goods get cheaper.
Ha
My comments did not address the issue of the the percentage of labor and capital in a particular industry. It was discussing taxes.
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Old 11-10-2008, 07:28 PM   #67
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My comments did not address the issue of the the percentage of labor and capital in a particular industry. It was discussing taxes.
Well, you fooled me.
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Capital and labor are like water and ice - the same thing at different states.
ha
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Old 11-10-2008, 07:45 PM   #68
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Well, you fooled me.
ha
I couldn't do that. You can only do that by not reading the post I was replying to.

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But there is no reason to think that the person who provides the capital needs/deserves a better deal than the one who provides the labor.
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Old 11-10-2008, 07:52 PM   #69
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Capital and labor are like water and ice - the same thing at different states.
So if we accept this, then we should accept that labor and capital should be treated equally by our tax code.
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