New retiree story and recommendation for a good brokerage/bank

[kyounge1956]

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Originally Posted by swampwiz (snip)I suppose the question could be posed as to whether or not I should have given up my search earlier than the 18 months. I don't think that there is any reasonable guidance to this question.

Yes, that question could and should be posed. I think some reasonable guidance is this: keep looking until you find a job, and keep working until the debt is paid. I have been in the situation of looking and looking and finding nothing, so I know it can be extremely discouraging, but IMO, unless actually unable to work, a person who owes money should not consider retirement, and especially not early retirement, until the debt is paid back.

If I understand your situation correctly, you have a grant that can only be used for housing expenses. That gives you a way to cut your expenses while working, and pay down your debts faster than you would be able to if you had to pay rent or a mortgage payment at the same time. Even if it takes you ten years to repay the $120K, you'll still be retiring earlier than the majority of people are able to, and if your portfolio grows at 7% it will be nearly twice the size it is now, even if you don't add to it in the interim.

[swampwiz]

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Originally Posted by kyounge1956 Yes, that question could and should be posed. I think some reasonable guidance is this: keep looking until you find a job, and keep working until the debt is paid. I have been in the situation of looking and looking and finding nothing, so I know it can be extremely discouraging, but IMO, unless actually unable to work, a person who owes money should not consider retirement, and especially not early retirement, until the debt is paid back. If I understand your situation correctly, you have a grant that can only be used for housing expenses. That gives you a way to cut your expenses while working, and pay down your debts faster than you would be able to if you had to pay rent or a mortgage payment at the same time. Even if it takes you ten years to repay the $120K, you'll still be retiring earlier than the majority of people are able to, and if your portfolio grows at 7% it will be nearly twice the size it is now, even if you don't add to it in the interim.

I cannot use the grant to spend on rentals, only on a house. And once I have bought the house and properly furnished it, I will have virtually nothing left.

I guess what you are saying is that I should go through Chapter 7 and then voluntarily agree to continue to pay off the debt. Since I have the opportunity to completely erase my debt in Chapter 7, what logical reason would there be for me to pay off the debt, aside from somewhat salvaging my credit score? Is a good credit score worth $100K?

Now from an ethical and moral POV , I suppose that it is good karma to pay off all creditors properly - but does that extend to such institutions that have tried to trip me up and screw me over at every turn, and that have made reckless decisions with their own capital (to enhance shareholder value and to pay obscene executive bonuses) such that the government that I help support with my taxes had to bail them out so that financial infrastructure would not completely explode? Should I feel guilty that these institutions made cold hard investment decisions on me that happened to turn out poorly at this time? I'm just a number to them. I think that it would be much better karma to take the money that I would save from paying back my creditors and put it to good use helping destitute folks in Africa or India out of their squalor, etc.

But it doesn't matter. I have learned that this is a dog eat dog world, and I need to take care of #1, since no one knows how to care of him like I do. With this debt out the way, I can start the last leg of my working life with no burden, to work and save enough to give me a decent retirement.

[kyounge1956]

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Originally Posted by swampwiz (snip)I guess what you are saying is that I should go through Chapter 7 and then voluntarily agree to continue to pay off the debt. Since I have the opportunity to completely erase my debt in Chapter 7, what logical reason would there be for me to pay off the debt, aside from somewhat salvaging my credit score? Is a good credit score worth $100K?

What I am saying is that you should repay what you borrowed, whether or not you declare bankruptcy. I've never been as deep in debt as you are, so I don't know the best way to get out again, but I bet there are people on this forum who can make extremely practical suggetions on how it could be done. If your library has a copy of a book called The Richest Man in Babylon, you might find the stories "The Camel Trader" and "The Clay Tablets" of interest. There are probably reputable credit counseling services that could assist too.

The logical reason to do this is that when you borrowed the money, you promised to pay it back. If repaying improves your credit score, that's frosting on the cake.

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Now from an ethical and moral POV , I suppose that it is good karma to pay off all creditors properly - but does that extend to such institutions that have tried to trip me up and screw me over at every turn, and that have made reckless decisions with their own capital (to enhance shareholder value and to pay obscene executive bonuses) such that the government that I help support with my taxes had to bail them out so that financial infrastructure would not completely explode?

YES. Nobody forced you to borrow the money. The fact that you disagree with the use your creditors plan to make of the profits isn't a valid reason not to repay them.

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Should I feel guilty that these institutions made cold hard investment decisions on me that happened to turn out poorly at this time? I'm just a number to them. I think that it would be much better karma to take the money that I would save from paying back my creditors and put it to good use helping destitute folks in Africa or India out of their squalor, etc. But it doesn't matter. I have learned that this is a dog eat dog world, and I need to take care of #1, since no one knows how to care of him like I do. With this debt out the way, I can start the last leg of my working life with no burden, to work and save enough to give me a decent retirement.

I'm not a Hindu, so I don't know whether it's better karma or not, and it may be a moot point anyway. If I understand what you've written earlier in the thread, you will be living at near poverty level so as to be eligible for state medical coverage. At that income, you won't be in a position to help anyone out of their squalor.

What you've written sounds to me as if you have already decided not to repay. If you will excuse me for saying so, I think that would be cutting off your nose to spite your own face. It sounds as if you are willing to live near the poverty level for the rest of your life, to avoid paying off these debts, when the same or even a lesser degree of deprivation would enable you to pay them off in much less time. That ten years I mentioned in my previous comment wasn't just a number I pulled out of a hat—I did a rough estimate earlier today of what it would take to pay off $120K. I make a bit less than the $40 an hour you mentioned earlier in the thread as a threshold at which you would feel able to repay. Like you, I'm single, so let's assume our basic expenses—food, utilities, transportation, etc—are similar. If I had somewhere to live with neither mortgage nor rent, I could redirect the principal and interest I'm currently paying on my mortgage toward debt reduction. At present, I'm making the maximum contribution (including over-50 catchup) to my tax-deferred retirement plan at work, and I could also use that money. Altogether, that's about $2385 a month that could go toward paying down debt, and at 10% interest, that monthly payment would get rid of a $120,000 debt in under six years. Unless the interest rate is over 21%, the $120K could be paid back in less than ten years. You could also, during that time, be putting $500 a month into a Roth IRA (I do). I tithe to my local church, but if you don't, you could put that money into your retirement account.

In ten years or less, you could be debt free, you'd have a nest egg that's much more likely to support you during a lengthy retirement than the one you have now, you would no longer be facing a future of enforced quasi-poverty, and you'd still only be 54, which is early retirement in anyone's book.

I encourage you as strongly as I can to stop trying to think of reasons not to repay, and instead start thinking of ways that you can.

[Milton]

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Originally Posted by swampwiz I suppose that it is good karma to pay off all creditors properly - but does that extend to such institutions that have tried to trip me up and screw me over at every turn, and that have made reckless decisions with their own capital (to enhance shareholder value and to pay obscene executive bonuses) such that the government that I help support with my taxes had to bail them out so that financial infrastructure would not completely explode? Should I feel guilty that these institutions made cold hard investment decisions on me that happened to turn out poorly at this time?

It's possible to rationalize virtually anything, if you try hard enough.

[REWahoo]

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It is only an ethical movement which can rescue us from the slough of barbarism, and the ethical comes into existence only in individuals.

-Albert Schweitzer

[M Paquette]

Hmm... I think here we have an example of why investing via prosper.com and similar peer-to-peer lending mechanisms can be risky.

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When I borrowed the money, I made a promise that subject to the bankruptcy law, that I would pay back the debt. Well, by going bankrupt, I will have kept my promise, since bankruptcy allows a debtor to legally change the promise.

By this reasoning, swampwiz should be jumping onto prosper.com and getting every penny he can, since his plan says he will have kept my promise.


This seems perilously close to intentional default fraud.

[queeneev]

I can't say what I really want to, so I'll just say....1) wow, and 2) shame on him. Methinks swampwiz may not return here, since no one really "felt the love" for his plan. I hope he learned a little something.

[Milton]

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Originally Posted by queeneev Methinks swampwiz may not return here, since no one really "felt the love" for his plan. I hope he learned a little something.

Perhaps the "desirable" Eastern European ladies will be more sympathetic ... especially if they don't speak English.

[randyman65]

Unfortunately, many other feels the same way that he does: that he deserves to be paid more, that he shouldn't have to pay his debts, that "the system" will provide him.

Unfortunately, as we all know, there is no "system". Its my money, your money, and that of our grandchildren. I'm already helping people to buy new cars and giving $8,000 to people who can't save money for a down payment. I get the feeling that many of us will not only have to sacrifice to finance our own retirement, but that of those who didn't save for later in life and have been "cheated" by Wall Street. I have received no more formal education in finance than anyone else in this country, but I do understand the relentless rules of humble arithmetic. Pensions aren't free, welfare isn't free, and healthcare isn't free. Its just easier to pretend it is when the gov't is one hannding out someone else's money.

[SciFiFan53]

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Originally Posted by randyman65 Unfortunately, many other feels the same way that he does: that he deserves to be paid more, that he shouldn't have to pay his debts, that "the system" will provide him. Unfortunately, as we all know, there is no "system". Its my money, your money, and that of our grandchildren. I'm already helping people to buy new cars and giving $8,000 to people who can't save money for a down payment. I get the feeling that many of us will not only have to sacrifice to finance our own retirement, but that of those who didn't save for later in life and have been "cheated" by Wall Street. I have received no more formal education in finance than anyone else in this country, but I do understand the relentless rules of humble arithmetic. Pensions aren't free, welfare isn't free, and healthcare isn't free. Its just easier to pretend it is when the gov't is one hannding out someone else's money.

I agree completely. The OP is/was a pathetic excuse to try to justify a really ugly way to run away from responsibility. If this is the way that even a fraction of people feel today, we better all run for the hills - and get your survival stuff together!

[randyman65]

I recall images on TV in NYC of people lined up around the block the day before bankruptcy reform took place. I also recall the difficulty of gettingmy first credit card, the extensive interview for my first car loan, and once getting refused for a loan because my credit union thought it would be too much debt for me (it would have been).

The point being that at one time, financial institutions could not palm their bad loans off on someone else and had to take on the risk themselves, and that at one time people were expected to be able to reasonably pay their debts.