Next steps for me...

bright eyed · 11-01-2007, 12:28 PM

Ok,
Soooo...i've nearly maxed out my 403b (must be some lame psych reason i haven't - only off by like $50 a check) and started my Roth. yay for me.

Questions:

*Should I max my 403b next year w/ any raise/bonus - OR - put it in after tax investment (more mutual funds? what are other options?).

*Suzie on Oprah said something about Roth being better than 401k and only invest up to your match - but to me it seems the tax benefits don't match (and i recall some of you saying the same thing when i complained about the fees before)? However, my 403b stinks w/ the 1.2 annuity fee on top of each funds fees (about .4-.9 each).

Anyhow, that point is a little moot, since i will max the Roth, so i'm asking what to do with the raise/ bonus - which i'd usually split and put half in my 403b and the rest in my savings. Since i'm almost maxed out, i need new options.

What say ye?

**Want2retire** · 11-01-2007, 12:31 PM

So, can you max out your Roth and max out your 403b, and then buy some Vanguard index funds with the taxable account you set up with leftover raise/bonus money?

Money going into a 401K is pre-tax, so your AGI is lower and that can be a tax advantage during high income years. Suze was talking about the advantages of having a substantial Roth IRA once you retire, because it is a great place to put your taxable bonds and REITs and such instead of putting them in taxable accounts.

The maximum for a Roth was only $5K this year.

bright eyed · 11-01-2007, 12:33 PM

Yes, just wondering if there was any reason not to!

I think it was because I'd heard in a few places about not maxing the 401/403 thing, but i'm so close anyway, i guess i'm wringing my hands over a few bucks.

**Want2retire** · 11-01-2007, 12:39 PM

Well, some people like having money in taxable accounts as opposed to a 401K (I know nothing about 403b's) because you have more control over what the investments are, and no problems with penalties and such if you retire in your 40's.

For someone like me, who is 59 already, the penalty is not an issue. So, I have been maxing out both. Lately I paid off my house and got a promotion, so the excess is going into taxable. Here I am, two years short of ER and I am just starting my taxable investments! (grin) Oh well. There are so many individual differences in approach.

**Want2retire** · 11-01-2007, 12:46 PM

Oh, I'll bet I know what you are thinking of. She mentioned that if you pay off your whole 401K too early in the year, you might not get all of the match. I think you have to contribute at least 5% or so each pay period to get the match for that pay period. At least, it works that way at my work.

TeeRuh · 11-01-2007, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Want2retire

Oh, I'll bet I know what you are thinking of. She mentioned that if you pay off your whole 401K too early in the year, you might not get all of the match. I think you have to contribute at least 5% or so each pay period to get the match for that pay period. At least, it works that way at my work.

Will vary by company. At MegaTech I maxed out my 401 in February. The small (2% I think) company match is trickling in each payday. So I'm getting it all just spread over 12 months. I intend to do the same thing in 2008 though I don't intend to work all year. I'll get my 20.5K pre-tax money in and a few months of company match.

I think the main thing for 403/401 decision is whether you are also getting good investment options. The options in my 401K are good enough and cheap enough that I will probably keep it when I bail in 6 months.

t.r.

lucija · 11-01-2007, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bright eyed

Ok,
Soooo...i've nearly maxed out my 403b (must be some lame psych reason i haven't - only off by like $50 a check) and started my Roth. yay for me.

Questions:

*Should I max my 403b next year w/ any raise/bonus - OR - put it in after tax investment (more mutual funds? what are other options?).

*Suzie on Oprah said something about Roth being better than 401k and only invest up to your match - but to me it seems the tax benefits don't match (and i recall some of you saying the same thing when i complained about the fees before)? However, my 403b stinks w/ the 1.2 annuity fee on top of each funds fees (about .4-.9 each).

Anyhow, that point is a little moot, since i will max the Roth, so i'm asking what to do with the raise/ bonus - which i'd usually split and put half in my 403b and the rest in my savings. Since i'm almost maxed out, i need new options.

What say ye?

There's no tax benefit NOW when investing in ROTH, however, you do gain on-going benefit (no yearly tax) and tax-free withdrawals later on...

Normally, general rule is to invest in 401k/403b up to a match, then ROTH, then back to 40xx - much depends on your circumstances.

Are your only 403b options annuities with total expense ratios hovering around 2%? Those fees seem pretty steep to me... enough to make me wonder whether you would be better of sticking to taxable/ROTH only.

Does your employer provide any match? Can you self-direct to some other options? Are you planning to stick around with this company for a while?

bright eyed · 11-01-2007, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lucija

There's no tax benefit NOW when investing in ROTH, however, you do gain on-going benefit (no yearly tax) and tax-free withdrawals later on...

Normally, general rule is to invest in 401k/403b up to a match, then ROTH, then back to 40xx - much depends on your circumstances.

Are your only 403b options annuities with total expense ratios hovering around 2%? Those fees seem pretty steep to me... enough to make me wonder whether you would be better of sticking to taxable/ROTH only.

Does your employer provide any match? Can you self-direct to some other options? Are you planning to stick around with this company for a while?

I think that's what Suze was talking about since she was giving advice to a young person starting out - 401 up to match, then roth etc.

In my case my 403b's fee is the 1.2 plus the fee of each fund (.4 and up)

I asked this group about that a while back and some said they'd run and go for the after tax, and some said the tax benefit (lowering my income) was worth the higher fees...

Our match is now 6%

but i'm already contributing way over that and I don't think I can lower what i contribute anyway...I'll be around here for at least the next few years, beyond that I don't know.

cute fuzzy bunny · 11-01-2007, 05:30 PM

How good are the 403b offerings?

I gave up on ours when I couldnt stomach the high fees plus the bad underperforming fund choices.

You only have to pay the tax once. You pay the fees on the balance each and every year.

2% over 15 years is a lot worse than 15-20% once.

If you have good fund choices, load it up. At least get the match. Then fund a roth to the max. Then start adding to your taxable account. If the fund choices stink, I'd fund only to the match, fund a roth, then taxable.

bright eyed · 11-01-2007, 05:54 PM

the offerings are not that great, it is hard to find funds with low fees...

i shifted everything in February to a couple of fidelity funds and the index funds (ING index funds)...which i'm not sure are great or not...their fees are lower than the other offerings and their returns are ok.

Thx for the pt on the 2% annually vs one time...that helps clarify what to think about it.

but as i said, i don't think i can reduce what i currently give, but it gives me pause about increasing or sticking bonuses in there.

i believe my fed tax rate is 28%.

cute fuzzy bunny · 11-01-2007, 06:01 PM

So then you're at 15 years minus underperformance vs other choices for a break even.

Now, next question is what are your options for distribution? Do they require that you take a lump sum or annuitization? Is there a fee or charge for lump sum conversion to an IRA? Do they waive or reduce the fee after a certain time period, many do so after ten years but some only for the money thats been there for ten years or longer.

If you're going to get whacked for a fee to get your money out at the end, factor that in as well. Unless you're a fan of VA's.

bright eyed · 11-01-2007, 06:29 PM

These are the funds available...i'm looking at the 400+ page prospectus to try to answer the other questions you posed...

Variable Investment Options (The Funds)*

AIM V.I. Capital Appreciation Fund (Series I)
AIM V.I. Core Equity Fund (Series I)
American Century

® Income & Growth Fund
(Advisor Class)(1)(2)

Calvert Social Balanced Portfolio
Capital One Mid Cap Equity Fund
(Class A Shares)

(1)

EuroPacific Growth Fund

® (Class R-4)(1)

Evergreen Special Values Fund (Class A)

(1)(2)

Fidelity

® VIP Contrafund® Portfolio
(Initial Class)
Fidelity® VIP Equity-Income Portfolio
(Initial Class)
Fidelity® VIP Growth Portfolio (Initial Class)
Fidelity® VIP Midcap Portfolio (Initial Class)(3)

Fidelity

® VIP Overseas Portfolio (Initial
Class)(2)

Franklin Small Cap Value Securities Fund
(Class 2)
ING AllianceBernstein Mid Cap Growth
Portfolio (Class S)
ING American Century Large Company Value
Portfolio (S Class)
ING American Century Small-Mid Cap Value
Portfolio (S Class)
ING Baron Asset Portfolio (S Class)
ING Baron Small Cap Growth Portfolio
(S Class)
ING BlackRock Large Cap Growth Portfolio
(Class I)
ING Columbia Small Cap Value II Portfolio
(S Class)
ING Davis Venture Value Portfolio (S Class)
ING Evergreen Health Sciences Portfolio
(Class S)
ING FMR

SM Diversified Mid Cap Portfolio
(Class S)**
ING FMRSM Large Cap Growth Portfolio
(Class I)**(4)

ING Fundamental Research Portfolio (S Class)
ING GET U.S. Core Portfolio

(5)

ING Global Resources Portfolio (Class S)
ING JPMorgan Emerging Markets Equity
Portfolio (Class S)
ING JPMorgan International Portfolio (I Class)
ING JPMorgan Mid Cap Value Portfolio
(S Class)
ING JPMorgan Small Cap Core Equity Portfolio
(Class S)

(4)

ING JPMorgan Value Opportunities Portfolio
(Class S)
ING Julius Baer Foreign Portfolio (Class S)
ING Legg Mason Partners Aggressive Growth
Portfolio (I Class)
ING Legg Mason Partners Large Cap Growth
Portfolio (I Class)
ING Legg Mason Value Portfolio (Class S)
ING Lord Abbett Affiliated Portfolio (Class I)
ING Marsico Growth Portfolio (Class S)
ING Marsico International Opportunities
Portfolio (Class S)
ING MFS Total Return Portfolio (Class S)
ING MFS Utilities Portfolio (Class S)
ING Neuberger Berman Partners Portfolio
(S Class)
ING OpCap Balanced Value Portfolio (S Class)
ING Oppenheimer Global Portfolio (I Class)
ING Oppenheimer Main Street Portfolio

®

(Class S)
ING Oppenheimer Strategic Income Portfolio
(I Class)
ING PIMCO High Yield Portfolio (Class S)
ING PIMCO Total Return Portfolio (S Class)
ING Pioneer Equity Income Portfolio (Class I)

(6)

ING Pioneer Fund Portfolio (Class I)
ING Pioneer High Yield Portfolio (I Class)
ING Pioneer Mid Cap Value Portfolio (Class I)
ING Solution 2015 Portfolio (S Class)

(7)

ING Solution 2025 Portfolio (S Class)

(7)

ING Solution 2035 Portfolio (S Class)

(7)

ING Solution 2045 Portfolio (S Class)

(7)

ING Solution Income Portfolio (S Class)

(7)

ING Stock Index Portfolio (Class I)
ING T. Rowe Price Capital Appreciation
Portfolio (Class S)
ING T. Rowe Price Diversified Mid Cap Growth
Portfolio (I Class)
ING T. Rowe Price Equity Income Portfolio
(Class S)
ING T. Rowe Price Growth Equity Portfolio
(I Class)
ING Templeton Foreign Equity Portfolio
(S Class)
ING Templeton Global Growth Portfolio
(Class S)
ING Thornburg Value Portfolio (I Class)

(4)

ING UBS U.S. Large Cap Equity Portfolio
(I Class)
ING UBS U.S. Small Cap Growth Portfolio
(S Class)
ING Van Kampen Comstock Portfolio (S Class)
ING Van Kampen Equity and Income Portfolio
(I Class)
ING Van Kampen Growth and Income Portfolio
(Class S)
ING Van Kampen Real Estate Portfolio (Class S)
ING VP Balanced Portfolio, Inc. (Class I)
ING VP Financial Services Portfolio (Class I)
ING VP Global Science and Technology
Portfolio (Class I)
ING VP Growth and Income Portfolio (Class I)
ING VP Growth Portfolio (Class I)
ING VP Index Plus International Equity Portfolio
(Class S)
ING VP Index Plus LargeCap Portfolio (Class I)
ING VP Index Plus MidCap Portfolio (Class I)
ING VP Index Plus SmallCap Portfolio (Class I)
ING VP Intermediate Bond Portfolio (Class I)
ING VP International Equity Portfolio (Class I)
ING VP International Value Portfolio (Class I)
ING VP MidCap Opportunities Portfolio
(Class I)
ING VP Money Market Portfolio (Class I)
ING VP Real Estate Portfolio (Class I)
ING VP Small Company Portfolio (Class I)
ING VP SmallCap Opportunities Portfolio
(Class I)
ING VP Strategic Allocation Conservative
Portfolio (Class I)
ING VP Strategic Allocation Growth Portfolio
(Class I)
ING VP Strategic Allocation Moderate Portfolio
(Class I)
ING VP Value Opportunity Portfolio (Class I)
ING Wells Fargo Disciplined Value Portfolio
(Class S)

(4)

ING Wells Fargo Small Cap Disciplined
Portfolio (Class S)
LKCM Aquinas Growth Fund

(1)(3)

Lazard Mid Cap Portfolio (Open Shares)

(1)(8)

Lord Abbett Series Fund - Growth and Income
Portfolio (Class VC)
Lord Abbett Series Fund - Mid-Cap Value
Portfolio (Class VC)
Neuberger Berman Socially Responsive Fund

®

(Trust Class)

(1)

New Perspective Fund

® (Class R-4)(1)

OpCap Mid Cap Portfolio

(8)

Oppenheimer Developing Markets Fund
(Class A)

(1)(2)

Oppenheimer Main Street Small Cap Fund

®/VA
Pax World Balanced Fund (Individual Investor
Class)(1)

PIMCO VIT Real Return Portfolio
(Administrative Class)
Pioneer Emerging Markets VCT Portfolio (Class
I)

(8)

Pioneer Equity Income VCT Portfolio (Class I)
Pioneer Fund VCT Portfolio (Class I)
Pioneer High Yield VCT Portfolio (Class I)
Pioneer Mid Cap Value VCT Portfolio
(Class I)
Templeton Global Bond Fund (Class A)

(1)

The Growth Fund of America

® (Class R-4)(1)

Wanger International Small Cap

(8)

Wanger Select
Wanger U.S. Smaller Companies
Washington Mutual Investors Fund

SM (Class
R-4)(1)

* The following funds are only available to a limited number of participants who did not participate in the fund substitution

RetireeRobert · 11-01-2007, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bright eyed

the offerings are not that great, it is hard to find funds with low fees...

i shifted everything in February to a couple of fidelity funds and the index funds (ING index funds)...which i'm not sure are great or not...their fees are lower than the other offerings and their returns are ok.

Thx for the pt on the 2% annually vs one time...that helps clarify what to think about it.

but as i said, i don't think i can reduce what i currently give, but it gives me pause about increasing or sticking bonuses in there.

i believe my fed tax rate is 28%.

I would not be so sure about not being able to reduce the amount/or pay % going into your 401/403 deferrals. I think you probably have to have that option.

Better check you plan docs. Then reduce the deferral amount/pay% if you think that the best course. I would still defer enough to get the maximum employer match amount though.

cute fuzzy bunny · 11-01-2007, 07:47 PM

Ugh, dont you hate those documents? Mine was >500 pages. And they change stuff in it every year and wont just tell you what changed.

Looks like the same fund picks I had to choose from, except we didnt have any of those ING funds.

I wanted to buy some Wanger Small Cap just to say I owned it.

But I held my nose and put most of the money into an S&P 500 index option they had which was only 75bp, then factored that equity holding into my AA.

bright eyed · 11-01-2007, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RetireeRobert

I would not be so sure about not being able to reduce the amount/or pay % going into your 401/403 deferrals. I think you probably have to have that option.

Better check you plan docs. Then reduce the deferral amount/pay% if you think that the best course. I would still defer enough to get the maximum employer match amount though.

Yeah, I'll look into it for sure...i've only casually discussed that w/ our finance person, but i will follow up...

bright eyed · 11-01-2007, 08:28 PM

Apparently there is a class action suit pending against ING, one part of the claim is because of collab between the teachers union and ING to market the plan, the other part is this (and pertains to me!)

<<In addition, despite its fiduciary and other duties to Plan participants, ING engaged in revenue sharing kickbacks with mutual fund companies, whereby ING selected funds based on the payments it would receive rather than an objective and prudent evaluation of the merits of the funds and the best interests of Plan participants. ING’s selection of high-cost funds instead of widely known and available low-cost, high-quality alternatives substantially diminished Plan participants’ retirement savings.>> case and firm info here ERISAfraud.com - ING

what to do, what to do...i also know they made it very terrible for us to switch to another provider so we didn't...my annoyance is at least validated, if not fueled!

11-01-2007, 12:28 PM	#1
bright eyed Thinks s/he gets paid by the post Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,579	Next steps for me... Ok, Soooo...i've nearly maxed out my 403b (must be some lame psych reason i haven't - only off by like $50 a check) and started my Roth. yay for me. Questions: Should I max my 403b next year w/ any raise/bonus - OR - put it in after tax investment (more mutual funds? what are other options?). Suzie on Oprah said something about Roth being better than 401k and only invest up to your match - but to me it seems the tax benefits don't match (and i recall some of you saying the same thing when i complained about the fees before)? However, my 403b stinks w/ the 1.2 annuity fee on top of each funds fees (about .4-.9 each). Anyhow, that point is a little moot, since i will max the Roth, so i'm asking what to do with the raise/ bonus - which i'd usually split and put half in my 403b and the rest in my savings. Since i'm almost maxed out, i need new options. What say ye? __________________ If i think of something clever to say, i'll put it here...

11-01-2007, 12:31 PM	#2
Want2retire Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: New Orleans Posts: 6,033	So, can you max out your Roth and max out your 403b, and then buy some Vanguard index funds with the taxable account you set up with leftover raise/bonus money? Money going into a 401K is pre-tax, so your AGI is lower and that can be a tax advantage during high income years. Suze was talking about the advantages of having a substantial Roth IRA once you retire, because it is a great place to put your taxable bonds and REITs and such instead of putting them in taxable accounts. The maximum for a Roth was only $5K this year. __________________ Dreaming of retirement.... " - - my greatest skill has been to want but little - - " (Henry David Thoreau, in Walden) Last edited by Want2retire; 11-01-2007 at 12:38 PM.

11-01-2007, 12:33 PM	#3
bright eyed Thinks s/he gets paid by the post Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,579	Yes, just wondering if there was any reason not to! I think it was because I'd heard in a few places about not maxing the 401/403 thing, but i'm so close anyway, i guess i'm wringing my hands over a few bucks. __________________ If i think of something clever to say, i'll put it here...

11-01-2007, 12:39 PM	#4
Want2retire Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: New Orleans Posts: 6,033	Well, some people like having money in taxable accounts as opposed to a 401K (I know nothing about 403b's) because you have more control over what the investments are, and no problems with penalties and such if you retire in your 40's. For someone like me, who is 59 already, the penalty is not an issue. So, I have been maxing out both. Lately I paid off my house and got a promotion, so the excess is going into taxable. Here I am, two years short of ER and I am just starting my taxable investments! (grin) Oh well. There are so many individual differences in approach. __________________ Dreaming of retirement.... " - - my greatest skill has been to want but little - - " (Henry David Thoreau, in Walden)

11-01-2007, 12:46 PM	#5
Want2retire Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: New Orleans Posts: 6,033	Oh, I'll bet I know what you are thinking of. She mentioned that if you pay off your whole 401K too early in the year, you might not get all of the match. I think you have to contribute at least 5% or so each pay period to get the match for that pay period. At least, it works that way at my work. __________________ Dreaming of retirement.... " - - my greatest skill has been to want but little - - " (Henry David Thoreau, in Walden)

11-01-2007, 05:30 PM	#9
cute fuzzy bunny Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ... Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Losing my whump Posts: 22,527	How good are the 403b offerings? I gave up on ours when I couldnt stomach the high fees plus the bad underperforming fund choices. You only have to pay the tax once. You pay the fees on the balance each and every year. 2% over 15 years is a lot worse than 15-20% once. If you have good fund choices, load it up. At least get the match. Then fund a roth to the max. Then start adding to your taxable account. If the fund choices stink, I'd fund only to the match, fund a roth, then taxable. __________________ Many an optimist has become rich by buying out a pessimist

11-01-2007, 05:54 PM	#10
bright eyed Thinks s/he gets paid by the post Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,579	the offerings are not that great, it is hard to find funds with low fees... i shifted everything in February to a couple of fidelity funds and the index funds (ING index funds)...which i'm not sure are great or not...their fees are lower than the other offerings and their returns are ok. Thx for the pt on the 2% annually vs one time...that helps clarify what to think about it. but as i said, i don't think i can reduce what i currently give, but it gives me pause about increasing or sticking bonuses in there. i believe my fed tax rate is 28%. __________________ If i think of something clever to say, i'll put it here...

11-01-2007, 06:01 PM	#11
cute fuzzy bunny Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ... Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Losing my whump Posts: 22,527	So then you're at 15 years minus underperformance vs other choices for a break even. Now, next question is what are your options for distribution? Do they require that you take a lump sum or annuitization? Is there a fee or charge for lump sum conversion to an IRA? Do they waive or reduce the fee after a certain time period, many do so after ten years but some only for the money thats been there for ten years or longer. If you're going to get whacked for a fee to get your money out at the end, factor that in as well. Unless you're a fan of VA's. __________________ Many an optimist has become rich by buying out a pessimist

11-01-2007, 06:29 PM	#12
bright eyed Thinks s/he gets paid by the post Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,579	These are the funds available...i'm looking at the 400+ page prospectus to try to answer the other questions you posed... Variable Investment Options (The Funds)* AIM V.I. Capital Appreciation Fund (Series I) AIM V.I. Core Equity Fund (Series I) American Century ® Income & Growth Fund (Advisor Class)(1)(2) Calvert Social Balanced Portfolio Capital One Mid Cap Equity Fund (Class A Shares) (1) EuroPacific Growth Fund ® (Class R-4)(1) Evergreen Special Values Fund (Class A) (1)(2) Fidelity ® VIP Contrafund® Portfolio (Initial Class) Fidelity® VIP Equity-Income Portfolio (Initial Class) Fidelity® VIP Growth Portfolio (Initial Class) Fidelity® VIP Midcap Portfolio (Initial Class)(3) Fidelity ® VIP Overseas Portfolio (Initial Class)(2) Franklin Small Cap Value Securities Fund (Class 2) ING AllianceBernstein Mid Cap Growth Portfolio (Class S) ING American Century Large Company Value Portfolio (S Class) ING American Century Small-Mid Cap Value Portfolio (S Class) ING Baron Asset Portfolio (S Class) ING Baron Small Cap Growth Portfolio (S Class) ING BlackRock Large Cap Growth Portfolio (Class I) ING Columbia Small Cap Value II Portfolio (S Class) ING Davis Venture Value Portfolio (S Class) ING Evergreen Health Sciences Portfolio (Class S) ING FMR SM Diversified Mid Cap Portfolio (Class S) ING FMRSM Large Cap Growth Portfolio (Class I)(4) ING Fundamental Research Portfolio (S Class) ING GET U.S. Core Portfolio (5) ING Global Resources Portfolio (Class S) ING JPMorgan Emerging Markets Equity Portfolio (Class S) ING JPMorgan International Portfolio (I Class) ING JPMorgan Mid Cap Value Portfolio (S Class) ING JPMorgan Small Cap Core Equity Portfolio (Class S) (4) ING JPMorgan Value Opportunities Portfolio (Class S) ING Julius Baer Foreign Portfolio (Class S) ING Legg Mason Partners Aggressive Growth Portfolio (I Class) ING Legg Mason Partners Large Cap Growth Portfolio (I Class) ING Legg Mason Value Portfolio (Class S) ING Lord Abbett Affiliated Portfolio (Class I) ING Marsico Growth Portfolio (Class S) ING Marsico International Opportunities Portfolio (Class S) ING MFS Total Return Portfolio (Class S) ING MFS Utilities Portfolio (Class S) ING Neuberger Berman Partners Portfolio (S Class) ING OpCap Balanced Value Portfolio (S Class) ING Oppenheimer Global Portfolio (I Class) ING Oppenheimer Main Street Portfolio ® (Class S) ING Oppenheimer Strategic Income Portfolio (I Class) ING PIMCO High Yield Portfolio (Class S) ING PIMCO Total Return Portfolio (S Class) ING Pioneer Equity Income Portfolio (Class I) (6) ING Pioneer Fund Portfolio (Class I) ING Pioneer High Yield Portfolio (I Class) ING Pioneer Mid Cap Value Portfolio (Class I) ING Solution 2015 Portfolio (S Class) (7) ING Solution 2025 Portfolio (S Class) (7) ING Solution 2035 Portfolio (S Class) (7) ING Solution 2045 Portfolio (S Class) (7) ING Solution Income Portfolio (S Class) (7) ING Stock Index Portfolio (Class I) ING T. Rowe Price Capital Appreciation Portfolio (Class S) ING T. Rowe Price Diversified Mid Cap Growth Portfolio (I Class) ING T. Rowe Price Equity Income Portfolio (Class S) ING T. Rowe Price Growth Equity Portfolio (I Class) ING Templeton Foreign Equity Portfolio (S Class) ING Templeton Global Growth Portfolio (Class S) ING Thornburg Value Portfolio (I Class) (4) ING UBS U.S. Large Cap Equity Portfolio (I Class) ING UBS U.S. Small Cap Growth Portfolio (S Class) ING Van Kampen Comstock Portfolio (S Class) ING Van Kampen Equity and Income Portfolio (I Class) ING Van Kampen Growth and Income Portfolio (Class S) ING Van Kampen Real Estate Portfolio (Class S) ING VP Balanced Portfolio, Inc. (Class I) ING VP Financial Services Portfolio (Class I) ING VP Global Science and Technology Portfolio (Class I) ING VP Growth and Income Portfolio (Class I) ING VP Growth Portfolio (Class I) ING VP Index Plus International Equity Portfolio (Class S) ING VP Index Plus LargeCap Portfolio (Class I) ING VP Index Plus MidCap Portfolio (Class I) ING VP Index Plus SmallCap Portfolio (Class I) ING VP Intermediate Bond Portfolio (Class I) ING VP International Equity Portfolio (Class I) ING VP International Value Portfolio (Class I) ING VP MidCap Opportunities Portfolio (Class I) ING VP Money Market Portfolio (Class I) ING VP Real Estate Portfolio (Class I) ING VP Small Company Portfolio (Class I) ING VP SmallCap Opportunities Portfolio (Class I) ING VP Strategic Allocation Conservative Portfolio (Class I) ING VP Strategic Allocation Growth Portfolio (Class I) ING VP Strategic Allocation Moderate Portfolio (Class I) ING VP Value Opportunity Portfolio (Class I) ING Wells Fargo Disciplined Value Portfolio (Class S) (4) ING Wells Fargo Small Cap Disciplined Portfolio (Class S) LKCM Aquinas Growth Fund (1)(3) Lazard Mid Cap Portfolio (Open Shares) (1)(8) Lord Abbett Series Fund - Growth and Income Portfolio (Class VC) Lord Abbett Series Fund - Mid-Cap Value Portfolio (Class VC) Neuberger Berman Socially Responsive Fund ® (Trust Class) (1) New Perspective Fund ® (Class R-4)(1) OpCap Mid Cap Portfolio (8) Oppenheimer Developing Markets Fund (Class A) (1)(2) Oppenheimer Main Street Small Cap Fund ®/VA Pax World Balanced Fund (Individual Investor Class)(1) PIMCO VIT Real Return Portfolio (Administrative Class) Pioneer Emerging Markets VCT Portfolio (Class I) (8) Pioneer Equity Income VCT Portfolio (Class I) Pioneer Fund VCT Portfolio (Class I) Pioneer High Yield VCT Portfolio (Class I) Pioneer Mid Cap Value VCT Portfolio (Class I) Templeton Global Bond Fund (Class A) (1) The Growth Fund of America ® (Class R-4)(1) Wanger International Small Cap (8) Wanger Select Wanger U.S. Smaller Companies Washington Mutual Investors Fund SM (Class R-4)(1) * The following funds are only available to a limited number of participants who did not participate in the fund substitution __________________ If i think of something clever to say, i'll put it here...

11-01-2007, 07:47 PM	#14
cute fuzzy bunny Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ... Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Losing my whump Posts: 22,527	Ugh, dont you hate those documents? Mine was >500 pages. And they change stuff in it every year and wont just tell you what changed. Looks like the same fund picks I had to choose from, except we didnt have any of those ING funds. I wanted to buy some Wanger Small Cap just to say I owned it. But I held my nose and put most of the money into an S&P 500 index option they had which was only 75bp, then factored that equity holding into my AA. __________________ Many an optimist has become rich by buying out a pessimist

11-01-2007, 08:28 PM	#16
bright eyed Thinks s/he gets paid by the post Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,579	Apparently there is a class action suit pending against ING, one part of the claim is because of collab between the teachers union and ING to market the plan, the other part is this (and pertains to me!) <<In addition, despite its fiduciary and other duties to Plan participants, ING engaged in revenue sharing kickbacks with mutual fund companies, whereby ING selected funds based on the payments it would receive rather than an objective and prudent evaluation of the merits of the funds and the best interests of Plan participants. ING’s selection of high-cost funds instead of widely known and available low-cost, high-quality alternatives substantially diminished Plan participants’ retirement savings.>> case and firm info here ERISAfraud.com - ING what to do, what to do...i also know they made it very terrible for us to switch to another provider so we didn't...my annoyance is at least validated, if not fueled! __________________ If i think of something clever to say, i'll put it here...