Now I know it's gonna get worse

[BLS53]

In their position, would we be expected to save either?

A significant minority on this board share your same opinion about government-funded pensions with COLAs. No matter how difficult or costly the sacrifice...


"Wimps"? My goodness. I'd think that most teachers, especially retired military teachers, would be challenged by the prospect of earning the respect of a roomful of kids who still know how to question everything.

I agree that unions can be good or bad, and that the "bad" employees tend to see unions as a crutch more than the good ones, but a union's only reason for existence is: management.

I'm not a member of the anti-COLA government pension, SS is welfare crowd. I believe anyone who works the majority of their adult life, is entitled to a modest, dignified retirement. Maybe not at 50 or 55, but at least in their 60's.

I see the teacher retirement system as dysfunctional. The rate of return is all out of whack, compared to SS, or other DB plans where SS taxes are paid. The TRS deduction in most states, is only a percent or two above what one would pay in FICA taxes for SS. A straight SS retirement at 62, is around $1500 a month. Yet a teacher can retire at 55, with 3 or more times that amount.

Teaching doesn't compare to the challenges of the military. Maybe the typical 22 year old with limited life experience finds the classroom intimidating. Most who hang around for a few years, eventually go on cruise control for the next 30 years.

When I grew up in the 1960's, there were a significant number of good teachers in their 60's, even 70's. You don't see that anymore. The unions have made the pensions so lucrative, that even outstanding teachers who enjoy the work, retire at the earliest date possible.

 

[Notmuchlonger]

"I believe anyone who works the majority of their adult life, is entitled to a modest, dignified retirement. Maybe not at 50 or 55, but at least in their 60's."

No matter what the job eh..Then you head towards communism..That worked out really well didn't it White plates and gray plates on sale at Walmart comrade.

 

[BLS53]

"I believe anyone who works the majority of their adult life, is entitled to a modest, dignified retirement. Maybe not at 50 or 55, but at least in their 60's."

No matter what the job eh..Then you head towards communism..That worked out really well didn't it White plates and gray plates on sale at Walmart comrade.

I know, the government can just euthanize everyone over 60, who doesn't have at least $1 million in assets.

Will that satisfy you?

 

[Notmuchlonger]

I know, the government can just euthanize everyone over 60, who doesn't have at least $1 million in assets.

Will that satisfy you?

No I was thinking along the lines of this.

YouTube - Logan's Run- Orgy Scene

Been awhile since a Logan's run reference..thanks

 

[BLS53]

No I was thinking along the lines of this.

YouTube - Logan's Run- Orgy Scene

Been awhile since a Logan's run reference..thanks

Jenny Agutter was smokin' hot. Get hold of the Austrailian film Walkabout, where she's runnin' around the outback naked.

 

[Hal3]

I have a hedge fund I would like to sell them - only 10 Billion for the entire fund. Most of the portfolio is pittosporum but there are also positions in rosmarinus and podocarpus. It has been growing at about 20% per year.

 

[haha]

Several of your points are well taken. The retired military guys I know (both officer and enlisted) who went into teaching as a second career almost unanimously describe teaching as "the hardest and most challenging - but most satisfying - job I've ever had." So I presume they're either "doing it right" or their military careers were a cake walk. And I doubt the latter is true.

I want to agree with what you say. It's just that it has almost nothing to do with what is required or usually demonstrated on the teaching job. Retired military officers are a tiny minority of public school teachers, and will always be such.

I'm sure there is somewhere in Mexico City an honest beat policeman. Does that change the overall reality of what it is to be a policeman in Mexico City?

Ha

 

[BLS53]

Nobody's saying teaching is not a noble profession. The reality is that teaching does not require scarcity of talent or aptitude. A large percentage of the population has the ability to become an effective teacher. Possible exceptions are math and science where the Bell Curve begins to skew. Accordingly, math and science is where most of the teacher shortages exist.

The propaganda and media spin from the unions, fosters the idea that teachers are unigue. With skill levels congruent with those that can hit a major league fastball, or perform brain surgery. I challenge that belief.

 

[friar1610]

I want to agree with what you say. It's just that it has almost nothing to do with what is required or usually demonstrated on the teaching job. Retired military officers are a tiny minority of public school teachers, and will always be such.

I'm sure there is somewhere in Mexico City an honest beat policeman. Does that change the overall reality of what it is to be a policeman in Mexico City?

Ha

My last post on this topic since we seem to sorta agree and sorta not agree...

I submit that retired military folks are not the only competent teachers around. I agree there are some "no-loads" in the profession. But I tend to think there are probably more dedicated, hard-working teachers around than you think there are. I can't quantify what I believe any more than you can what you think. We probably won't reach agreement which is why I say this is my last post on the topic.

BTW, I've found it's unusual on the web to have a discussion with someone with whom you disagree who isn't calling you a ***hole by the 2nd or 3rd post, so thanks for a civil debate.

 

[haha]

My last post on this topic since we seem to sorta agree and sorta not agree...

I submit that retired military folks are not the only competent teachers around. I agree there are some "no-loads" in the profession. But I tend to think there are probably more dedicated, hard-working teachers around than you think there are. I can't quantify what I believe any more than you can what you think. We probably won't reach agreement which is why I say this is my last post on the topic.

BTW, I've found it's unusual on the web to have a discussion with someone with whom you disagree who isn't calling you a ***hole by the 2nd or 3rd post, so thanks for a civil debate.

Actually, I hope you will still consider this a civil debate, but I think that my opinion is easily supported. Not by inputs, but by analysis of the output- student achievement, which in America is abysmal any way it is measured. And it is even more shockingly inadequate when you consider how much more we spend on education than most (or perhaps any) other counties in the world

It's like healthcare- doesn't matter what anyone says about how many wonderful things our doctors and hospitals do, the bottom line so to speak is that our US life expectancy stinks compared to even much poorer countries.

Ha

 

[BLS53]

Actually, I hope you will still consider this a civil debate, but I think that my opinion is easily supported. Not by inputs, but by analysis of the output- student achievement, which in America is abysmal any way it is measured. And it is even more shockingly inadequate when you consider how much more we spend on education than most (or perhaps any) other counties in the world

It's like healthcare- doesn't matter what anyone says about how many wonderful things our doctors and hospitals do, the bottom line so to speak is that our US life expectancy stinks compared to even much poorer countries.

Ha

We have a system that caters to the honor student at one end, and the learning disabled at the other end. Neither student is going to be influenced much by the public education system. They will excel or fail regardless of the quality of the schools they attend. The overlooked, are the students in the middle who could be raised to a higher level by a more dedicated education system. For instance, how many students of above average ability, are "tracked" and deemed incapable, after having difficulty with beginning Algebra?

 

[friar1610]

Actually, I hope you will still consider this a civil debate, but I think that my opinion is easily supported. Not by inputs, but by analysis of the output- student achievement, which in America is abysmal any way it is measured. And it is even more shockingly inadequate when you consider how much more we spend on education than most (or perhaps any) other counties in the world

It's like healthcare- doesn't matter what anyone says about how many wonderful things our doctors and hospitals do, the bottom line so to speak is that our US life expectancy stinks compared to even much poorer countries.

Ha

OK - one more response and then that's it.

A rhetorical question: to what degree are the results you mention (with which I don't disagree) the result of:

• Teacher incompentence
• Lower standards demanded by "the system"

My experience with teachers (since my kids graduated from HS m any years ago ago) has ben limited. However, I'm the chairman of a scholarship committee for an organization that gives bucks to kids going off to college. In that capacity I meet with teachers from time to time. My sense is that the teachers are generally very dedicated and want to do a good job.

I think there is so much BS put on the shoulders of teachers these days (teach diversity, take time out for so many "celebrations" during the year, teach anti-drunk driving, etc.) that teachers don't have the time to concentrate on truly academic stuff which, I would agree, accounts for the bad showing you mention.

Remember the days of TQM and the apostle of it (Deming)? One of his major points was that most employees want to do a really good job but that the systems within which they work inhibit their ability to reach their goals. I think that's very much the case with education in this country. The troops with "boots on the ground" (teachers) would probably do a great job if left unfettered. But they have so many "requirements" to deal with in the classroom that the reason they went into the profession in the first place gets subverted. That makes the minority of them say "screw it" - I'll just go through the motions. IMO, the majority soldier on and try to do a good job in spite of the system.

I mentioned in an earlier post that I seriously considered teaching as a 2nd career after the military. I didn't do it because the pay wasn't high enough for what I knew I would have to do. But now I do it for free as a volunteer. When the imposed BS gets to be too much (which it rarely does because they are happy to have me) I tell them what I will do to help the students and under what circumstances I will do it. They always agree because they are getting a good deal in having me for free. Unfortunately, public school teachers don't have that option.

 

[haha]

OK - one more response and then that's it.




A rhetorical question: to what degree are the results you mention (with which I don't disagree) the result of:

• Teacher incompentence
• Lower standards demanded by "the system"

My experience with teachers (since my kids graduated from HS m any years ago ago) has ben limited. However, I'm the chairman of a scholarship committee for an organization that gives bucks to kids going off to college. In that capacity I meet with teachers from time to time. My sense is that the teachers are generally very dedicated and want to do a good job.

I think there is so much BS put on the shoulders of teachers these days (teach diversity, take time out for so many "celebrations" during the year, teach anti-drunk driving, etc.) that teachers don't have the time to concentrate on truly academic stuff which, I would agree, accounts for the bad showing you mention.

Remember the days of TQM and the apostle of it (Deming)? One of his major points was that most employees want to do a really good job but that the systems within which they work inhibit their ability to reach their goals. I think that's very much the case with education in this country. The troops with "boots on the ground" (teachers) would probably do a great job if left unfettered. But they have so many "requirements" to deal with in the classroom that the reason they went into the profession in the first place gets subverted. That makes the minority of them say "screw it" - I'll just go through the motions. IMO, the majority soldier on and try to do a good job in spite of the system.

I mentioned in an earlier post that I seriously considered teaching as a 2nd career after the military. I didn't do it because the pay wasn't high enough for what I knew I would have to do. But now I do it for free as a volunteer. When the imposed BS gets to be too much (which it rarely does because they are happy to have me) I tell them what I will do to help the students and under what circumstances I will do it. They always agree because they are getting a good deal in having me for free. Unfortunately, public school teachers don't have that option.

Look, I am not trying to get you to post, I post for whoever might want to read it. So please, suit yourself on this.

Also I am not trying to discover who is at fault with an education system that we agree is dysfunctional. I would point out that the teachers' union is immensely powerful, so it is kind of disingenuous of them to always hide behind someone else. Without a powerful teachers' union for example we might consider just closing the whole mess down and do vouchers. It couldn’t get much worse, could it?

Ha

 

[ziggy29]

Nobody's saying teaching is not a noble profession. The reality is that teaching does not require scarcity of talent or aptitude. A large percentage of the population has the ability to become an effective teacher. Possible exceptions are math and science where the Bell Curve begins to skew. Accordingly, math and science is where most of the teacher shortages exist.

I would contend that there are shortages in math and science teachers because there are actually a large number of higher-paying jobs in these fields (and associated fields like engineering) as opposed to some other academic disciplines. If a lot of the private-sector math, science and engineering jobs went away, you'd see a lot more people with those backgrounds looking at going into teaching.

 

[lets-retire]

I would contend that there are shortages in math and science teachers because there are actually a large number of higher-paying jobs in these fields (and associated fields like engineering) as opposed to some other academic disciplines. If a lot of the private-sector math, science and engineering jobs went away, you'd see a lot more people with those backgrounds looking at going into teaching.

From what I recall of math in high school it seemed to be the best class for teachers. If they developed their tests and assignments correctly they could easily and quickly grade them during their break period. They never assigned any written papers that took lot of time to grade. At the high school level math was a simple A+B=C. Not much fuzzy thinking involved.

 

[W2R]

From what I recall of math in high school it seemed to be the best class for teachers. If they developed their tests and assignments correctly they could easily and quickly grade them during their break period. They never assigned any written papers that took lot of time to grade. At the high school level math was a simple A+B=C. Not much fuzzy thinking involved.

If your science classes did not assign any written papers or essays on their tests, then they differ from all such classes that I either took (in grade school, junior high, high school, and afterwards) or taught (physical science, physics, and algebra in private high schools while between my graduate degrees). Even math tests had a few short answer questions as "gimmes" for the more verbally oriented kids. I spent about 2 hours each night grading algebra homework (which means going through the equations on 90-100 papers, figuring out where the student made a mistake, commenting on that, and deciding on fair and equitable scores for various more common types of mistakes, and noting what I need to talk about more on the next day, and recording grades). Then I got to develop new homework sheets and tests and work through them to create answer sheets for the next night.

Break period? I had one but usually ended up doing other work-related things during that time such as checking on lab material availability or keeping up those stupid bulletin boards, going over my grade book to see how students were doing, or helping students who needed extra help and had a study hall that period or any one of a number of other tasks. I must have made copies of tests, handouts, and homework sheets for the students during that time too, [-]though I don't actually remember doing that. [/-] and I remember doing that on half broken mimeograph or multilith machines (this was back in the dark ages).

Before and after school? We had to patrol the hallways and grounds.

Lunch? I was required to police them at that time as well and to pretend that I enjoyed eating the fattening cr*p that was served, since nobody was allowed to bring lunch at those particular (private) schools.

I was never made for teaching and really respect those who make the effort to do a good job in teaching our children. Good teachers are all heroes in my opinion. I was not a very good teacher and I thank my lucky stars every day that I am not a teacher!! It is an awful, awful, AWFUL job, at least for me. I only did it for about a year on a temporary basis, so I didn't even get a paid summer out of it. At least I learned that it wasn't my cup of tea and got out of it fast, which was probably a benefit for all involved.

 

[lets-retire]

If your science classes did not assign any written papers or essays on their tests, then they differ from all such classes that I either took (in grade school, junior high, high school, and afterwards) or taught (physical science, physics, and algebra in private high schools while between my graduate degrees). Even math tests had a few short answer questions as "gimmes" for the more verbally oriented kids. I spent about 2 hours each night grading math homework (which means going through the equations, figuring out where the student made a mistake, commenting on that, and deciding on fair and equitable scores for various more common types of mistakes, and noting what I need to talk about more on the next day, and recording grades). Then I got to develop new homework sheets and tests and work through them to create answer sheets for the next night.

Break period? I had one but usually ended up doing other work-related things during that time such as checking on lab material availability or keeping up those stupid bulletin boards, going over my grade book to see how students were doing, or helping students who needed extra help and had a study hall that period or any one of a number of other tasks. Before and after school? We had to patrol the hallways and grounds.

Like I stated this is from my high school. Yes in sciences we did have short essay questions, but not in math. If we did have a short answer question in math it was literally a one or two word answer, nothing longer than a sentence for the over achievers. At my high school we had six periods, instructors only taught five, so there was another three hours per day for the instructors to grade papers and review their lesson plans for the next day. When dealing with 150 students I could see where it would take the "extra" time to actually grade the homework and tests, but surely overtime should not be required.

All of the math classes I took involved the same teaching pattern. 20-30 minutes of instruction/going over homework then 20-30 minutes of completing homework. My instructors used a textbook and assigned homework out of it, so they did not have to develop any homework assignments.

 

[W2R]

Like I stated this is from my high school. Yes in sciences we did have short essay questions, but not in math. If we did have a short answer question in math it was literally a one or two word answer, nothing longer than a sentence for the over achievers. At my high school we had six periods, instructors only taught five, so there was another three hours per day for the instructors to grade papers and review their lesson plans for the next day. When dealing with 150 students I could see where it would take the "extra" time to actually grade the homework and tests, but surely overtime should not be required.

All of the math classes I took involved the same teaching pattern. 20-30 minutes of instruction/going over homework then 20-30 minutes of completing homework. My instructors used a textbook and assigned homework out of it, so they did not have to develop any homework assignments.

So much for homework being done at home! And didn't your math teacher require that you answer all short answer questions in complete sentences, rather than in one or two words? And if overtime is not required to grade 150 papers, do you think they did it in the car while driving home after work? I think what we are illustrating is that being a math/science teacher can be different at different schools.

Also, there is that old saying about walking in another man's moccasins. Teaching is (can be?) a miserable job!! Anyone with other saleable skills who goes into teaching is doing it out of love for the children, in my opinion (little brats! IMO).

 

[lets-retire]

So much for homework being done at home! And didn't your math teacher require that you answer all short answer questions in complete sentences, rather than in one or two words? And if overtime is not required to grade 150 papers, do you think they did it in the car while driving home after work? I think what we are illustrating is that being a math/science teacher can be different at different schools.

Also, there is that old saying about walking in another man's moccasins. Teaching is (can be?) a miserable job!! Anyone with other saleable skills who goes into teaching is doing it out of love for the children, in my opinion (little brats! IMO).

Allowing us to do a portion of the homework in class allowed us to work on our own and ask question when we were really screwed up. In the words of my math instructors, "This is Math not English, keep your answers short." The instructors had three hours of non-class time during the day to grade papers or do whatever they needed to do for class. Most completed short tasks and graded papers while we were doing assignments in addition to the non-class time.

I definitely wouldn't want to be a teacher in todays schools, unless I taught an elective. I can't tell you how many times I get a surprised reaction form my kid's instructors when I complained to them about not receiving enough feedback. I even had to write a letter to the principle due to the lack of feedback from the teachers. After that I received daily e-mails about his behavior, and surprisingly noticed a marked improvement, when my wife and I were allowed to be part of the solution.

 

[HFWR]

At my high school we had six periods, instructors only taught five, so there was another three hours per day for the instructors to grade papers and review their lesson plans for the next day.

All of the math classes I took involved the same teaching pattern. 20-30 minutes of instruction/going over homework then 20-30 minutes of completing homework. My instructors used a textbook and assigned homework out of it, so they did not have to develop any homework assignments.

Twenty minutes of instruction? No wonder kids can't do math...

 

[ladelfina]

funny teaching/finance story I just heard: an accountant is interviewing a recent graduate and is quizzing them about characteristics of invoices (as opposed to other crazy similar documents that have to be emitted).

An invoice is subject to IVA (what is called VAT -"value added tax"- elsewhere in Europe).

The candidate, in a moment of unintended philosophy, declared "an invoice is subjective"!!

"soggetta all'IVA" => "soggettiva"


oooookk

---
We never did any homework in any class (public schools; I graduated in 1977). Nor did we go over homework, unless there had been some class-wide failure of comprehension. Guess we were quite lucky!

lets-retire.. I'm glad you're able to keep better tabs on your kid.. but I also can't imagine how a teacher can spend time composing daily e-mails for 30+ kids. That in itself could conceivably be an extra couple of hours/day!

 

[lets-retire]

HFWR--IIRC the math required to graduate high school was simple math. I skipped that and went straight into Algebra. Since I always took elective math I figure (now) that the instructor expected us to be motivated enough to study to gain a thorough understanding of the material.

ladelfina--You're correct all of those e-mails would be a daunting task. The only reason I became involved is the DW and I would hear nothing, then one day we would receive an e-mail complaining that for the last several weeks the kid had been a terror. My response always was if he is doing something wrong tell me about it that day not days or weeks later. We monitor his grades closely on-line and if we see a negative trend we contact the instructor, to see how we can be of assistance. We also request parent/teacher conferences when they are offered. That is normally when we receive the surprised looks.

 

[HFWR]

HFWR--IIRC the math required to graduate high school was simple math. I skipped that and went straight into Algebra. Since I always took elective math I figure (now) that the instructor expected us to be motivated enough to study to gain a thorough understanding of the material.

Actually, I was trying to figure where the three hours came from...

I took two years of algebra, a year of geometry, and a semester each of trig and calc in HS, but the minimum requirements were much less. (Don't remember...) One of my pet peeves from HS was the two-track system, one called "academic", presumably for those headed to college, and "commercial", as it was called then, which included such rigorous coursework as home ec, woodshop, and bookkeeping. I support a vocational alternative for those not destined for "higher education", though it should still be academically challenging. But I took four years of math, and four years of science, and was competing on the gpa scale with folks who took basketweaving...

Oh, and I wouldn't want to be a teacher, for love nor money.

 

[lets-retire]

One of my pet peeves from HS was the two-track system, one called "academic", presumably for those headed to college, and "commercial", as it was called then, which included such rigorous coursework as home ec, woodshop, and bookkeeping. I support a vocational alternative for those not destined for "higher education", though it should still be academically challenging. But I took four years of math, and four years of science, and was competing on the gpa scale with folks who took basketweaving...

We had a few of the brains trying to get the ranking system modified at our school. One or two of the top ten in my graduating class took the minimum to graduate, similar to the commercial program you describe. These people received all of the honors as if they worked extremely hard in very difficult classes. I have no doubt they worked moderately hard to obtain the grades they did, but they bumped people who actually took extremely difficult academic classes and suffered lower GPA's because of it. It didn't seem fair to rank someone who took underwater basket weaving above someone who was taking advance placement classes when the person taking the more advanced classes scored .1 grade points lower.

The valedictorian in my class had something like a 3.98 or 3.99. He was taking the highest level of classes offered in our school starting his junior year. His senior year he could not take a full course load, because there was nothing left to take, unless he took freshmen level classes. We had several classes together (but I scored much lower than him), until he started taking the Advanced Placement classes.

 

[CitricAcid]

lets-retire, a lot of schools nowadays weight the classes such that an extra 0.33 or 0.50 or whatever is added onto the GPA of an honors or AP class. Also, when you are comparing GPAs for colleges or whatever the hell else you need them for, colleges look a lot more at your schedule and then you GPA rather than the other way around. Also, SAT/ACTs count a lot.