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Old 05-21-2009, 01:48 PM   #61
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I don't actually use Pace Picante Sauce - you can get Tiger Sauce in Kansas City.

New Orleans - and here I thought it was Baton Rouge.

Man ya gotta read the fine print on everything nowadays.

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heh heh heh -
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Old 05-21-2009, 02:10 PM   #62
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I don't actually use Pace Picante Sauce - you can get Tiger Sauce in Kansas City.

New Orleans - and here I thought it was Baton Rouge.

Man ya gotta read the fine print on everything nowadays.

.

heh heh heh -
Aha - it took me some digging online, but the secret is out.
The real source of Pace Picante Sauce is CSC, aka the Campbell Soup Company, 1 Campbell Place Camden, NJ
NEW JERSEY!!!!!
My sense of reality has been shattered.
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Old 05-21-2009, 02:30 PM   #63
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Aha - it took me some digging online, but the secret is out.
The real source of Pace Picante Sauce is CSC, aka the Campbell Soup Company, 1 Campbell Place Camden, NJ
NEW JERSEY!!!!!
My sense of reality has been shattered.
Yeah. Pace used to be a Texas company. Then it was bought by a company from New Jersey - LOL!

Audrey
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Old 05-21-2009, 02:42 PM   #64
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Get a rope...

Which is exactly what the Pace family and employees wanted to do to the guy who sold it back in 1994 for a tidy sum of $1.1B. This might give you a hint as to why:

Quote:
Pace family members (there are 15 living by our count) didn't get a dime of the proceeds--Goldsbury pocketed all of it.
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Old 05-21-2009, 02:57 PM   #65
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opppsss... never mind...
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Old 05-21-2009, 07:42 PM   #66
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The Road to Bankruptcy - Megan McArdle

as posted on bogleheads: There is more to Andrews' book/story than was revealed ... until now.
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Old 05-21-2009, 08:59 PM   #67
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The Road to Bankruptcy - Megan McArdle

as posted on bogleheads: There is more to Andrews' book/story than was revealed ... until now.
Great find. This guy married a credit cheat, perhaps to gain some knowledge of how to best game the system. Then he reverses the situation: Andrews and wife are victims, not grifters, and writes what may become a really big book. Can anyone still believe what writers write? Nonfiction non technical writing is almost all BS, shaped to whatever POV the writers and his/her editors think will sell. Facts are a very elastic concept.

I like this comment from the linked article:

"Andrews' desire to shield his wife is understandable--hell, laudable.
Except that wasn't all he was doing -- he was protecting the coherence and relevance of his narrative and, therefore, the commercial viability of his book. "Family on the brink of financial disaster due to ridiculously lax mortgage lending" matches the zeitgeist and does have a bit of the 'everyman' quality.
But "family driven to bankruptcy by the chronic irresponsibility of spendthrift second wife" doesn't work the same way. Although it does make you wonder if there are any new regulatory opportunities for our ambitious, paternalistic new masters in Washington.
We're apparently going to have new regulations to protect college students from credit cards -- should we also consider new regulations to protect middle-aged men from ill-advised divorces and remarriages? After all, a middle-aged man can get himself in one hell of a lot more life-destroying trouble with child-support, alimony, and a second family than a college student with a Visa card."

That idea for a law to protect middle aged men from second marriages sounds timely. My Irish grandmother used to say, "There's no fool like an old fool." And she definitely was not talking about old women.

Ha
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Old 05-21-2009, 11:09 PM   #68
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Now he's been given time on The Newshour, fer cryin' out loud.
For One Reporter, a Personal Journey Through the Mortgage Meltdown | Online NewsHour | May 21, 2009 | PBS

And Paul Solman, erratic as ever, let him off easy. The NYT guy is gleefully, giddily lusting after other people's hard-earned disposable dollars to bail him out of his self-inflicted predicament. Don't give him a cent!
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Old 05-22-2009, 01:26 AM   #69
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After seeing how completely unrepentant he was on the NewsHour and then reading the Atlantic business, I am truly disgusted with this guy. I am sorry they eliminated debtors prison because quite frankly that is where and his wife belong.

Since he wasn't required to document anything, he may not have committed perjury but in my mind he is action is almost criminal. I was so disgusted that I wrote this comment to Paul Solman, on the NewsHour website.

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Dear Mr Solman

You are normally one of my favorite reporters, not just on the News Hour, but period. You do a great job in explaining economic issues.

I think you did a great disservice to the public, in giving a scam artist like Ed Andrews and his serial dead beat wife a platform to hawk his book.

A bit of Googling would have revealed that his wife Patty has declared bankruptcy twice in the last decade. A remarkable feat as clearly demonstrated in this Atlantic article The Road to Bankruptcy - Megan McArdle.

There are many real victims in this crisis, auto workers and dealers, people who were wiped out due to illness etc.

Ed and Patty aren't victims. Despite incomes in the top 10-20% of all households, the chose to live beyond their means. Knowing full well if their "gamble" failed that we the taxpayers and responsible members of society would suffer the consequences.

I am sorry they aren't in jail. I see little difference between a guy who robs a Best Buy of a big screen TV and these two who borrow money with no intention of paying it back.

I hope you do a follow up on this story, with the additional information that was uncovered, either on air or on the website.
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Old 05-22-2009, 07:13 AM   #70
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For better or worse Ed Andrews is one of their own as far as journalists and media types are concerned. This helps him get favorable press on media outlets for awhile. Now that another cat is out of the bag, he will probably learn that even bad press is beneficial to him.
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Old 05-22-2009, 08:01 AM   #71
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He should go on Oprah. She would chew him up and spit him out.
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Old 05-22-2009, 08:31 AM   #72
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If one must eat picante sauce from a jar, try this:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg joet_medium_jar.jpg (66.8 KB, 253 views)
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Old 05-22-2009, 09:00 AM   #73
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clifp, Solman's piece was produced before McArdle's piece appeared, so Google would not have helped him. But now Andrews can write a sequel to his book and maybe other journalists can start pointing fingers at each other.

It is all rather amusing to me. Probably a movie will be in the works as well.
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Old 05-23-2009, 01:23 AM   #74
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clifp, Solman's piece was produced before McArdle's piece appeared, so Google would not have helped him. But now Andrews can write a sequel to his book and maybe other journalists can start pointing fingers at each other.

It is all rather amusing to me. Probably a movie will be in the works as well.
To the credit of Paul Solman/Newshour they did have a follow up with Andrews about the bankruptcy and posted it on the website and even flagged the update on tonight's program. Precisely what I asked them to do. So journalism ethics isn't completely dead.

I found Mr. Andrews response to be predictably evasive and misleading.

Quote:
These bankruptcies did occur, but they had nothing to do with our mortgage woes. They were both tied to old debts from before we were married or bought a house. They had nothing to do with my ability to get a mortgage; nor did they have anything to do with our subsequent financial problems....

The first bankruptcy in 1998, five years before Patty and I got together. It occurred because Patty's former husband, a producer of TV commercials in Los Angeles, didn't file income tax returns for five years. Patty, who was a stay-at-home mom and wasn't earning money, was blindsided. She had been signing returns, but he hadn't actually been filing them.
/
Since back taxes are not discharged during bankruptcy. It is clear there were other debts involved and not being ableto ditch the payment of taxes, forced them to ditch their other debts. Once again showing the Patty and/or ex-husband is living beyond her means.

Quote:
Patty's second bankruptcy stemmed from a loan she received from her sister, while Patty was still living in Los Angeles. At the time, she was caring for four children, working for very modest pay, and receiving almost no child support from her ex-husband. (Despite multiple court orders, he remains chronically delinquent on untold thousands of dollars.)
This begs the question of what kind of person borrows money from her sister and than pisses her off enough that she follows them across country to sue them,and than rather than paying back the sister declare bankruptcy.

I and I'm sure everybody on this board, and most everybody in America knows that lenders were criminally irresponsible in their lending practices. But this case reinforces my belief that for every financially ignorant person tricked in taking a mortgage they didn't understand, there were numerous people who lack any morals and shameless exploited the system.

Ed Andrews and Patty redifine chutzpah in my mind. These people aren't victim, if anyone has been victimized it is Patty's sister and we the American taxpayer.

My SWAG (Scientific Wild Ass Guess) is that this couple cost most people on this board about $.05 in increased debt/taxes. Now a nickel is no big deal but if there are million people like this couple that is $5,000 per board member which is real money in my book.

We can pass a zillion new laws, hire an army of regulators and overseers, get outraged about every greedy CEO and AIG financial product employee and crucify every mortgage broker.

However, if the American public doesn't look at Ed and Patty and yell for shame, and treat them with contempt they deserve we are doomed to repeat the last few years.
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Old 05-23-2009, 07:03 AM   #75
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Mr. Ha, you provocateur. I am very nearly riled. If there'd been such a law 23 years ago, my husband would not have been able to marry his Amethyst, and he swears he would've stayed alone.

And why slap at the woman for being a "second wife"; she's his wife, period. She's a shameless jerk, all right, but not because she came along too late to marry him first.

>>But "family driven to bankruptcy by the chronic irresponsibility of spendthrift second wife" doesn't work the same way.

>>That idea for a law to protect middle aged men from second marriages sounds timely. My Irish grandmother used to say, "There's no fool like an old fool." And she definitely was not talking about old women.

Ha
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Old 05-23-2009, 07:04 AM   #76
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However, if the American public doesn't look at Ed and Patty and yell for shame, and treat them with contempt they deserve we are doomed to repeat the last few years.
Actually, for real change to occur, it is the people who have screwed up who need to feel a sense of shame. The rest of us can yell "shame" until we are blue in the face, but it will have no effect unless it is internalized by the malefactors. I don't think this couple will ever really be ashamed of their behavior, nor will many others like them.

Here is an interesting Christian Science Monitor article regarding the increase of of shamelessness in our society.

When good things happen to bad people | csmonitor.com
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Old 05-23-2009, 08:28 AM   #77
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I saw Edmund Andrews on "On the money " last night . What a spineless wuss ! Why someone ( who is probably also a flake ) would move across the country to be with him is beyond me .
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Old 05-23-2009, 09:22 AM   #78
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clifp: Look how you influenced the news! Good stuff!

Andrews would've have been less of scumbag in my mind if he had mentioned the bankruptcies in his book and NYT article. Journalists should be held to the same standards they hold politicians and criminals.

Gumby: Thanks for the CSM link. It was from 2003 yet just as timely today.
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Old 05-23-2009, 12:55 PM   #79
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Actually, for real change to occur, it is the people who have screwed up who need to feel a sense of shame. The rest of us can yell "shame" until we are blue in the face, but it will have no effect unless it is internalized by the malefactors. I don't think this couple will ever really be ashamed of their behavior, nor will many others like them.

Here is an interesting Christian Science Monitor article regarding the increase of of shamelessness in our society.

When good things happen to bad people | csmonitor.com
Isn't shamelessness just the other side of the now universally acclaimed "non-judgmentalism"?

This from the CSM article:

In the past 20 years or so, a sense of shame has become less common. At the same time, cultural observers have noticed changes in the way people relate to societal rules. They point to a rising sense of individualism that has people caring less about what others think, and is fed by the public's willingness to ignore bad behavior if it makes good entertainment.

Isn't this a habit that is highly praised on this board? Look at the advice given on another current thread when a man's family doesn't just think that his paln to quit work is cute and fuzzy. How many people have in effect said, if your family and friends disagree with you want to do- however sensible they may or may not be-ignore them or ditch them?

Doesn't this independence flow from the same well as the shamelessness lamented in the above article?

I say you get one if you want the other. Judging implies standards, as does shame. No judgments=no standards=no shame.

Ha
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Old 05-26-2009, 06:26 AM   #80
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Interesting insight ha, hadn't made that connection, makes sense...
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