Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 02-25-2011, 09:59 AM   #41
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
MasterBlaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,359
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinanceDude View Post
Well, to start with, get rid of the stupid subsidies for ethanol. Ethanol is one of the most energy intensive renewbale fuels out there, you have to use a ton of OIL to make ethanol, and a lot of water. Plus, you are using food crops to make a gasoline alternative that many experts feel damages modern engines...........
Ethanol is the new de-facto farm sudsidy. There is a political theme there also in support of midwest "red" states.

The other issue with Ethanol is that we are raising the demand for commodity food prices by making Ethanol. Some poor people and poor people in poor nations are double struggling now.

__________________

__________________
MasterBlaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 02-25-2011, 11:40 AM   #42
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,268
Quote:
Originally Posted by travelover View Post
This sounds bad, but what if we had to pay what Europeans pay now?
You realize that the main reason Europeans pay so much for gas is because it is taxed to the Nth degree to pay for Socialized Medicine and other things like that that we don't have, right?
__________________

__________________
utrecht is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2011, 11:51 AM   #43
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
travelover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,879
Quote:
Originally Posted by utrecht View Post
You realize that the main reason Europeans pay so much for gas is because it is taxed to the Nth degree to pay for Socialized Medicine and other things like that that we don't have, right?
No, I thought they just didn't know how to shop.

Seriously, my point was that we have much lower fuel costs than most of the western world. I'm sure we can (and will) argue endlessly what the true cost is once all the incidentals like wars, subsidies, etc are factored in.
__________________
Yes, I have achieved work / life balance.
travelover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2011, 12:16 PM   #44
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,816
Quote:
Originally Posted by In-control View Post
There are alot of projections and tipping points. Below is a good article on the topic. What really burns me, ha ha, is the resistance to seeking, using, alternative energy. I believe that we should end the subsities that Oil gets and give it to all the alternatives. Sure it is painful now - but so is being held hostage by dictators. A mixed solution of Solar,Wind, Wave, Nuclear, Bio etc... is continually proposed and loses all of its momendum because it costs more then Oil, but what is the real cost of our dependance? Add the ME wars to the price of a gallon of gas as a war tax @ the pump and we will be driven away from oil! We, mankind, tend to wait till the crises is upon us before acting, rather than avoiding it and taking the actions years ahead to avoid it. Seems pretty stupid to me.

End of Cheap Oil @ National Geographic Magazine

Cheers
I agree with the bold. If we put a $1/gallon tax on crude oil, we wouldn't need to subsidize alternative sources or conservation, we could just let the market work out the details. If we had done this back in the 1970's when it was first suggested, we possibly wouldn't have the ME wars today.
__________________
Independent is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2011, 05:34 PM   #45
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 11,971
Quote:
Originally Posted by In-control View Post
I believe that we should end the subsities that Oil gets and give it to all the alternatives. Sure it is painful now - but so is being held hostage by dictators.
There's no question it sounds sensible, but what would the $ impact be on a gallon of gasoline, order of magnitude at least? If it's substantial, the short term consequences to the US economy could be significant, and not at a particularly good time. I'm not disagreeing, but I can see why it might not be a good idea to implement quickly. OTOH, I am suspecting the subsidies may be trivial in the overall.
__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 60% equity funds / 35% bond funds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 2.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2011, 06:00 PM   #46
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,275
Quote:
Originally Posted by In-control View Post
What really burns me, ha ha, is the resistance to seeking, using, alternative energy.


What resistance? I'm always researching alternatives, and I keep finding them to be expensive, bulky, unreliable, etc. I'm eager to take on any renewable - but it has to make economic sense for me.




Quote:
I believe that we should end the subsities that Oil gets and give it to all the alternatives.
Just get rid of all subsidies. See the other posts on ethanol. This is what happens when we let Congress try to play in a technical field. Let the market decide. Which alternatives? I've seen cases where someone had a potentially better idea, but since other renewables got the subsidies, they couldn't compete. Maybe we lost out on the 'big one'?


Quote:
Sure it is painful now - but so is being held hostage by dictators. A mixed solution of Solar,Wind, Wave, Nuclear, Bio etc... is continually proposed and loses all of its momendum because it costs more then Oil, but what is the real cost of our dependance? Add the ME wars to the price of a gallon of gas as a war tax @ the pump and we will be driven away from oil!
OK, tell me. What is the cost per gallon? I have no idea. I doubt that if the US stopped using oil, that things would change for us in the ME. I think we are worried because they have money and they don't like us. They can sell to others, and they might like us even less if we stopped buying their products.


Quote:
We, mankind, tend to wait till the crises is upon us before acting, rather than avoiding it and taking the actions years ahead to avoid it. Seems pretty stupid to me.
People go about their daily lives. If gas is affordable today, do you really think that most people are going to stop and think - what happens if our supplies dwindle, etc? They have other things to worry about. If it is a problem, our leaders should be educating us and showing some leadership.

By the way - what is the crisis?

Here's some reading for you - renewables may not be all you think they are cracked up to be.

David MacKay FRS: Sustainable Energy - without the hot air: Contents

-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2011, 06:48 PM   #47
Dryer sheet wannabe
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 12
Read $20 Per Gallon: How the Inevitable Rise in the Price of Gasoline Will Change Our Lives for the Better ...by Christopher Steiner. It offers an insight to the plights of higher oil prices in our future.
__________________
MC1550 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2011, 09:01 AM   #48
Recycles dryer sheets
DFA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Earth
Posts: 311
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyfishnevada View Post
Maybe this would be good for the country in the long run. Not only would it make alternative energy sources more attractive to investors and consumers, but we might start drilling fro our own oil as a stop gap. Both create jobs and opportunity here at home. I would rather see the U.S. producing our own energy rather than depending in others, both friendly and unfriendly, for our energy.

Totally agree here; lets invest in the USA for jobs and energy the heck with the Middle east. Lets get creative like we were many years ago.

Go USA!!
__________________
DFA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2011, 12:01 PM   #49
Moderator
ziggy29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,612
I like the free market as much as the next guy, but I don't think energy policy can completely follow the free-market model. I say that because by the time alternatives make obvious economic sense, it will have already hit the fan so hard that we may not be able to afford the investment in an alternative infrastructure (even less than we can now), and because any private sector development would take years to bear fruit.

Plus, I see energy security and independence as a very real and legitimate national security and sovereignty issue. If we allow our dependence on foreign oil to go on because the alternatives don't yet make economic sense, oil producing nations that hate us can take us down without firing a shot.
__________________
"Hey, for every ten dollars, that's another hour that I have to be in the work place. That's an hour of my life. And my life is a very finite thing. I have only 'x' number of hours left before I'm dead. So how do I want to use these hours of my life? Do I want to use them just spending it on more crap and more stuff, or do I want to start getting a handle on it and using my life more intelligently?" -- Joe Dominguez (1938 - 1997)

RIP to Reemy, my avatar dog (2003 - 9/16/2017)
ziggy29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2011, 12:05 AM   #50
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Ed_The_Gypsy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: the City of Subdued Excitement
Posts: 5,293
There is an end to everything, Ziggy. Open land, plentiful clean water, cheap oil, good jobs. If the population of the earth keeps increasing--and it will--we will deplete resources one at a time, and lose species one at a time. We will become vulnerable to all kinds of upsets. Meanwhile, buy XOM.
__________________
my bumpersticker:
"I am not in a hurry.
I am retired.
And I don't care how big your truck is."
Ed_The_Gypsy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2011, 08:31 AM   #51
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 11,971
Great post as usual, and I can't dispute the possibilities you suggest. But FWIW...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy29 View Post
I like the free market as much as the next guy, but I don't think energy policy can completely follow the free-market model. I say that because by the time alternatives make obvious economic sense, it will have already hit the fan so hard that we may not be able to afford the investment in an alternative infrastructure (even less than we can now), and because any private sector development would take years to bear fruit.
Certainly possible and it may be short-sighted, but how on earth would we support incentives for alternative energy in the foreseeable future with the deficits we're running from here to 10 years out at least? Even if we could, I'm highly skeptical of our federal government selecting what to incentivize (we can't incentivize every alternative), the same people who have given us ethanol from corn and to a lesser extent fuel cell cars.

I'm still optimistic alternative energy technology (and scale-up) will coincide with the economics well enough that we get through, 'invisible hand' etc. However, we are definitely gambling on this as compared to most other developed nations, and ultimately someone will prove right and someone wrong.

Plus, I see energy security and independence as a very real and legitimate national security and sovereignty issue. If we allow our dependence on foreign oil to go on because the alternatives don't yet make economic sense, oil producing nations that hate us can take us down without firing a shot.
Except they need our $ even more than we need their oil to maintain their governments, many ME countries have little besides oil. If anything they are more addicted than we are, otherwise they'd have taken us down a while ago. When one OPEC reduces production, another steps in to increase thanks to the additional revenues.
__________________

__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 60% equity funds / 35% bond funds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 2.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Oil up $25 a barrel today? shotgunner FIRE and Money 14 09-22-2008 08:22 PM
Well oil is over 91 a barrel heading to 100+. newguy88 Other topics 18 10-28-2007 06:29 PM
Oil is over 78 dollars a barrel newguy88 Other topics 9 08-01-2007 10:13 AM
$85 a barrel Oil?? Maximillion FIRE and Money 11 02-24-2006 07:42 PM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:50 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.