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Old 10-28-2008, 09:10 AM   #161
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I am dying (which I guess is the best way to own a VA) to see Art spin how great VA when it turns out the insurance companies didn't probably hedge "the guarantee you can't lose money in VA feature."

It seems me that with absurdly low rates for T-Bills and the 40% market decline, and record volatility. it would be virtually impossible for an insurance company to offer a product that promise to capture "75% of the upside of the market", but will guarantee that you get your money back in 10 years. Brewer started a thread on how to replicate a VA using options, and CDs. Any insurance company that wrote a VA several years ago during times low volatility and high CD rates is hosed trying to duplicate this now.

I predict that state insurance funds are the next victim.
You guys try so hard to discredit me that you don't even take the time to read my posts, or that article for that matter.
I've stated numerous times that if the product fails, I'll be the first to admit it, but why work so hard to bury the product before it's dead? No matter what happens, the clients will still get back their remaining funds, so worst off, they'll be in the same boat anyone else is with their mutual funds currently.
I haven't tried to "spin" a thing. I've merely pointed out that you all are slamming a product that quite possibly could turn out to have been the best decision you should have made. If I'm willing to admit if the product doesn't work, why are so many of you out there unwilling to admit it may?
BTW, brewster's creation would be just about as expensive to structure, and with no tax deferral, no death benefit, no guaranteed income for life, and no step ups. All he created was an index fund with insurance and you laud that?
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Old 10-28-2008, 09:14 AM   #162
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Ask those same people how they feel about it when the market is up
So, if the market's up, you're going to be up also. Possibly more, just depends on the mutual funds you selected. However, you're not currently paying capital gains and you can move within the portfolio without creating a taxable event. Then of course, there are the quarterly (and sometimes daily) lockins of highest value.
So, assuming your funds outperformed, you gave up some return to protect your money for life. How are you feeling currently about your funds?
I realize that you all have the need to fit in with "the cool guys", but just like in high school, they really don't care about you at all. Think for yourselves. Have an open mind.
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Old 10-28-2008, 10:09 AM   #163
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Ask those same people how they feel about it when the market is up
Not as thrilled, but can you tell me with certainty when the market will recover, so I can buy stocks at the right time?
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Old 10-28-2008, 10:22 AM   #164
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FD, are y'all selling these or something? Just checking.
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Old 10-28-2008, 11:21 AM   #165
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FD, are y'all selling these or something? Just checking.
Not at the moment I wouldn't think. However, having bought one in the last year sure makes me feel better.
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Old 10-28-2008, 11:33 AM   #166
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So, if the market's up, you're going to be up also. Possibly more, just depends on the mutual funds you selected.
Didn't you just say a few posts ago that your upside was limited?
If that is not the case, my apologies.

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How are you feeling currently about your funds?
I realize that you all have the need to fit in with "the cool guys", but just like in high school, they really don't care about you at all. Think for yourselves. Have an open mind.
Again, since you ask, I feel great. My income stream continues to increase, I can buy more stock at a lower price for an even larger income stream in the near future, and I don't have to pay anyone 2% or more in fees (is that one time, or on an annual basis)?

I do have an open mind, what I have seen of VAs is definately not for me. They may be good for someone else, but they are a really bad deal for this investor.
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Old 10-28-2008, 11:35 AM   #167
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Not as thrilled, but can you tell me with certainty when the market will recover, so I can buy stocks at the right time?
No, if you are looking for the very bottom, I can't.
But I lay pretty darn good odds that in 10 years the market will be a lot higher than it is now
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Old 10-28-2008, 11:38 AM   #168
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No matter what happens, the clients will still get back their remaining funds, so worst off, they'll be in the same boat anyone else is with their mutual funds currently.
Not true, someone earlier in this thread laid out exactly what happened to them. They ended up getting only a fraction of the worth and that was after a legal mess I wouldn't want to deal with.
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Old 10-29-2008, 10:15 AM   #169
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Didn't you just say a few posts ago that your upside was limited?
If that is not the case, my apologies.



Again, since you ask, I feel great. My income stream continues to increase, I can buy more stock at a lower price for an even larger income stream in the near future, and I don't have to pay anyone 2% or more in fees (is that one time, or on an annual basis)?

I do have an open mind, what I have seen of VAs is definately not for me. They may be good for someone else, but they are a really bad deal for this investor.

No, I said if you went with brewsters plan your upside is limited, not with a VA. It would be limited with an Indexed annuity as well, but I wouldn't recommend those to anyone.
And again, if you have a large portion of cash available to invest now then you're one of the smart ones. I also was liquidating some since June, but if you're buying on the downtrends, unless you have unlimited cash flow, at some point that runs out.....or you sell something else at a loss.
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Old 10-29-2008, 10:16 AM   #170
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Not true, someone earlier in this thread laid out exactly what happened to them. They ended up getting only a fraction of the worth and that was after a legal mess I wouldn't want to deal with.

Sorry, but if you read that story, it was someone who knew someone. As far as my research indicates, no one has ever lost their own investment in a VA. Of course, there is the chance someone is creating stories just to fit in with the cool kids.
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Old 10-29-2008, 10:18 AM   #171
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As the holder of an annuity from the defunct Executive Life Assurance Co. HATRED does not begin to express my attitude. But I will moderate myself and refer you to dozens of posts by 2B.
So Art, are you calling CuppaJoe a liar? Just wondering....
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Old 10-29-2008, 10:34 AM   #172
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So Art, are you calling CuppaJoe a liar? Just wondering....
Well Sarah, I didn't recall who had said what, and of course I'll now receive another point deduction from the moderators to be sure, but lets just say I'd hate to see an industry unfairly defiled.
BTW, there's already another thread where the creator of the thread threw out his "oooops" towards VUL's.

Ya know Sarah, I realize I'm not making any friends around here, but what the heck if it at least gets people around here to think or even ask questions then that's fine. So far on this site, I've given out some good stock picks (which some people have been kind enough to thank me for in private), foretold of the coming doom caused by hedge funds, and recommended VA's when the market was up and you could lock in values. I'm not sure how much more is necessary before people at least think to themselves, "hmmmmm, perhaps I could use professional advice"?
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Old 10-29-2008, 10:40 AM   #173
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Well, speaking as one of those who gets their checks based on folks that look for that professional advice, I totally agree. But I spent 3 years earning that CFP and getting to run numbers on those annuities, and I don't see much value in them for most folks.

And I'm not piling on, just pointing out that your broad brush might take into account who you are claiming makes stuff up. No mod action, just pointing out that Cuppa is not one of those that has been giving you a hard time about annuities.
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Old 10-29-2008, 10:59 AM   #174
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Well Sarah, you may not see a value to them. However, if they do pay off as promised you might want to alter your viewpoint. I've never used a broad brush, as I've stated quite plainly that the product isn't right for everyone. I don't use it for everyone. However, with that said, it also shouldn't constantly be written on here that it's not right for ANYONE. People are going to need pensions in the future, probably more so than they did in the past because in all likelihood they will live longer. Back when they merely were a death benefit product, they weren't all that useful, however now with living benefits they've taken on a completely different value. Even guys like Scott Burns and Moshe Milevsky (who hated the products) are now admitting to their benefits.
Heck, there are certain people out there who have no need for social security or medicare! Where are all the threads knocking those?
FWIW, I think there's a decent chance insurance companies rescind living benefits. I think their actuaries misfigured or were coerced to approve products. All JMO.
As to cuppa joe, I didn't mean to be bagging on you. I would just need to see in writing where an insurance company didn't pay back the clients money. It just doesn't seem feasible.
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Old 10-29-2008, 01:06 PM   #175
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Art, for your information Executive Life Insurance Company which CuppaJoe mentioned was a large California insurer and it failed. You can read about it plenty of places by doing a Google search. Executive Life Insurance Company - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There was lots of ugliness and complications after the failure.
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Old 10-29-2008, 01:41 PM   #176
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I've never used a broad brush, as I've stated quite plainly that the product isn't right for everyone. I don't use it for everyone. However, with that said, it also shouldn't constantly be written on here that it's not right for ANYONE.
The second part of that paragraph seems to be a very good example of you using a broad brush which you denied doing in the first part
A number of people have stated that VAs have a place for some people. I myself have. I have also stated it isn't right for me and why.

So let me get this straight, with your VA I get to lock in the peak value at any time, have no limit on the upside but can never loose money.
Are their any withdrawal penalties? What are ALL the fees. I know you mentioned the 2%, is that one time, or annual and what are other fees?
Or, is their a prospectus on the internet you can link to.
You really sound like a used car salesman, and it frankly is sounding too good to be true. So if you want to show me the evidence, I'll do the research to see what the real story is.
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Old 10-29-2008, 01:46 PM   #177
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Art, for your information Executive Life Insurance Company which CuppaJoe mentioned was a large California insurer and it failed. You can read about it plenty of places by doing a Google search. Executive Life Insurance Company - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There was lots of ugliness and complications after the failure.

Martha, I never said no insurance company has failed. Why oh why do I keep getting misquoted? I said that according to my research, no one has ever not gotten back their invested dollars.
For the record, there have been quite a few failed insurance companies over the years. I believe there have bee more than one company out of Canada that failed.
One more time, IF an insurance company does fail, your investment dollars are kept in a separate account. It is the guarantee that MAY become questionable from that point.
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Old 10-29-2008, 01:57 PM   #178
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The second part of that paragraph seems to be a very good example of you using a broad brush which you denied doing in the first part
A number of people have stated that VAs have a place for some people. I myself have. I have also stated it isn't right for me and why.

So let me get this straight, with your VA I get to lock in the peak value at any time, have no limit on the upside but can never loose money.
Are their any withdrawal penalties? What are ALL the fees. I know you mentioned the 2%, is that one time, or annual and what are other fees?
Or, is their a prospectus on the internet you can link to.
You really sound like a used car salesman, and it frankly is sounding too good to be true. So if you want to show me the evidence, I'll do the research to see what the real story is.
Zathras, first off, I don't have "my" insurance company". There are many different products and they offer different benefits with their own little twist. Some people are in need of income for life and could care less about leaving anyone anything. In that case, I might suggest one product. On the other hand, some people are ONLY worried about leaving money for their heirs, and for that there is something else.
If I were trying to sell anything, I'd have a link and means to reach me. In fact, I probably have become overly protective of the product because so many choose to attack it. As I've mentioned, it's just one part of investing worth looking into for some people.
So, with that said, I'll try to answer your questions.....

.....actually, I started typing out your answers then changed my mind. I'd prefer not to discuss products publicly, as I don't want to cross over any questionable lines as to advertising or soliciting. If you care to, you can send me a PM and I'll try to answer your questions, although I don't want them reprinted publicly. I'd suggest instead you do seek out someone you feel you may be able to trust in the industry. Again, I'm not here to solicit clientele.
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Old 10-29-2008, 02:07 PM   #179
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Martha, I never said no insurance company has failed. Why oh why do I keep getting misquoted? I said that according to my research, no one has ever not gotten back their invested dollars.
For the record, there have been quite a few failed insurance companies over the years. I believe there have bee more than one company out of Canada that failed.
One more time, IF an insurance company does fail, your investment dollars are kept in a separate account. It is the guarantee that MAY become questionable from that point.
I did not mean to imply that you said no insurer failed. If you poke around about Executive Life you will see that it took years for payouts and policy holders and annuity holders were not all made whole.
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Old 10-29-2008, 02:18 PM   #180
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.....actually, I started typing out your answers then changed my mind. I'd prefer not to discuss products publicly, as I don't want to cross over any questionable lines as to advertising or soliciting. If you care to, you can send me a PM and I'll try to answer your questions, although I don't want them reprinted publicly. I'd suggest instead you do seek out someone you feel you may be able to trust in the industry. Again, I'm not here to solicit clientele.
Fair enough, I wouldn't want you to cross any lines either
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