Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 09-04-2009, 03:26 PM   #61
Moderator Emeritus
Nords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,616
Quote:
Originally Posted by bosco View Post
... perhaps it is better that you borrow the book from the local library when it becomes available, before you waste more of your time and money, and mine too.
Sounds like Otar is implying that he's happy to let people share their copies with others, especially after he ends up in print.
__________________

__________________
*
*

The book written on E-R.org, "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement", on sale now! For more info see "About Me" in my profile.
I don't spend much time here anymore, so please send me a PM. Thanks.
Nords is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 09-04-2009, 04:58 PM   #62
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
clifp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,450
While I can't excuse his arrogant response, I think your problem is unusual. I used PayPal to purchase the book last night. The whole process took a couple of minutes, and then a few more minutes to download, no more difficult than ordering from Amazon.

I have some sympathy for his not so subtle brush off. Their are companies, ING direct comes to mind, that routinely tell customers who take up to much customer service to go elsewhere. Of course with internet this can be a dangerous strategy as Bosco is clearly demonstrating.
__________________

__________________
clifp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2009, 05:29 PM   #63
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Bikerdude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,901
Some 'engineering' types have poor people skills.
__________________
“I guess I should warn you, if I turn out to be particularly clear, you've probably misunderstood what I've said” Alan Greenspan
Bikerdude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2009, 05:32 PM   #64
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 11,017
I had no problem downloading this last week but I know it is getting very heavy traffic. Perhaps the technical glitches are causing a big headache for Otar. It doesn't excuse his rudeness, but it illustrates why people who get annoyed easily need to delegate their marketing!
__________________
Meadbh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2009, 08:01 PM   #65
Full time employment: Posting here.
bosco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 987
I looked around a bit on the Boglehead site. He seems to have been helpful when a download for which he has received payment has a glitch. In my case, it was the receipt of payment that seems to have been the problem.

He almost implies that I never clicked the payment button on his website. Oh well....life goes on. I do appreciate the sympathy. I'm still curious about the book, but not enough to deal with that again.

I've not had problems with Amazon, or other online providers, and do all my banking and bill payment online, so not sure what the PayPal issue is. My connection is a bit slow here (cellular modem), and Paypal's seemed so as well. So maybe it was a timing out issue. They obviously received my info, or they wouldn't have been able to post the temp. authorizations.
__________________
I have an inferiority complex, but it's not a very good one.
bosco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2009, 02:08 AM   #66
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
clifp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,450
Bosco, here is the silver lining beside saving yourself 3.95, you also a great deal of anxiety.

Ok I am about 100 pages into the book. I've started to wonder which flavor of cat food will taste best when my portfolio is depleted in 15 years as I realize that as 1999 retiree I hit the jackpot since my sequence of returns (i.e. really bad bear market) is one of the worst in history. Switching to a more conservative AA won't help because the median depletion rate for all AA is the same.

Well somebody please tell me that this book has a happy ending. Death panels are looking better and better. I am tempted to go look for a J*b or w*rk of course they don't really exist in today's economy. Any reporter wanting to do a multimillionaire feeling destitute story, I am your man.
__________________
clifp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2009, 04:45 AM   #67
Dryer sheet aficionado
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 30
I don't want to necessarily defend Mr. Otar's response, but I wonder if the interaction could be somewhat explained by culture. I have spent substantial time in each country, and I enjoy visiting USA for the exemplary customer service anywhere I choose to spend a nickel. It's just not the same in Canada, IMO. We are more European, in a sense, where the customer may not always be right, and patience with retailers is required. Many Canadian customers will just abandon their efforts if they can't get anywhere with a retailer knowing that complaining may not do much. Lodging formal complaints and letters can be entirely ineffectual at times, whereas I know in America, a verbal or letter of complaint is taken very seriously even if it is baseless (not saying that your issues with Otar's service are baseless, Bosco).

More obvious is that Otar is trying to run this by himself from his basement. He likely does not have retail experience, and as an engineer by training, likely has little patience for certain minutae in life like malfunctioning software applications.

That being said, and it might be a bit of a stretch in view of the level of arrogance in the final response, but is it possible that the expectations by the consumer (Bosco) to have the problem in purchasing the book solved by the retailer (Otar) be partly explained by subtle cultural differences between our two countries?

michelle (who is trying to give this gentleman some benefit of doubt, but admits it is a rather ambitious endeavour )
__________________
michelle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2009, 07:53 AM   #68
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
target2019's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,705
Quote:
Originally Posted by bosco View Post
I've not had problems with Amazon, or other online providers, and do all my banking and bill payment online, so not sure what the PayPal issue is. My connection is a bit slow here (cellular modem), and Paypal's seemed so as well. So maybe it was a timing out issue. They obviously received my info, or they wouldn't have been able to post the temp. authorizations.
Paypal is less than perfect, and I do think your dial-up had something to do with the problem. Still, no excuses are acceptable. I am wondering how your account got charged the wrong amount? That is something that should not happen, but of course computers and programmers and users have all been known to make mistakes.
FYI, I am pretty good at "testing" systems, and seem to find many flaws in online systems, without trying.
Best wishes.
__________________
target2019 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2009, 07:55 AM   #69
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
target2019's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,705
Quote:
Originally Posted by clifp View Post
I am tempted to go look for a J*b or w*rk of course they don't really exist in today's economy. Any reporter wanting to do a multimillionaire feeling destitute story, I am your man.
Why not write a book? It seems to work for many!
__________________
target2019 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2009, 08:06 AM   #70
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
target2019's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,705
Quote:
Originally Posted by michelle View Post
More obvious is that Otar is trying to run this by himself from his basement. He likely does not have retail experience, and as an engineer by training, likely has little patience for certain minutae in life like malfunctioning software applications.

That being said, and it might be a bit of a stretch in view of the level of arrogance in the final response, but is it possible that the expectations by the consumer (Bosco) to have the problem in purchasing the book solved by the retailer (Otar) be partly explained by subtle cultural differences between our two countries?
I think you've expressed things well. I'd imagine that he did not anticipate the deluge of response, and probably regrets giving the PDF away, receiving personal emails on the subject, payment problems, etc.
However, as an engineer he would be wise to expect less than 100% performance, and so would want to insulate himself from the transactions and help desk functions.
Let's not forget that the author is an FP, and actively sells the service, and now a book. So he is no stranger to customer service problems, how to handle clients, etc.
BTW, there are many free articles on his website, so let's give him credit for all of that.
__________________
target2019 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2009, 09:39 AM   #71
Administrator
W2R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 38,846
Quote:
Originally Posted by bosco View Post
I looked around a bit on the Boglehead site. He seems to have been helpful when a download for which he has received payment has a glitch. In my case, it was the receipt of payment that seems to have been the problem.

He almost implies that I never clicked the payment button on his website. Oh well....life goes on. I do appreciate the sympathy. I'm still curious about the book, but not enough to deal with that again.

I've not had problems with Amazon, or other online providers, and do all my banking and bill payment online, so not sure what the PayPal issue is. My connection is a bit slow here (cellular modem), and Paypal's seemed so as well. So maybe it was a timing out issue. They obviously received my info, or they wouldn't have been able to post the temp. authorizations.
Bosco, I think you were more than reasonable and that his response was out of line. It lowers my (previously neutral) opinion of him. He is obviously taking on more than he can handle and apparently he didn't have the foresight to realize that handling customer service all by himself might be way over his head. His poor judgment in this regard says nothing good at all about his judgment in general.

I guess I am lucky because I missed the "free" stage, and so I have only seen the one chapter which was still provided for free. I was not impressed. I take it that the rest of the book is much better. If/when I can skim through some of the rest of it at B&N or Amazon, if I like it then I might buy it for full price. But otherwise, no way. Cheap is nice (free is nicer!), but my time is worth something too.
__________________
Already we are boldly launched upon the deep; but soon we shall be lost in its unshored, harbourless immensities.

- - H. Melville, 1851
W2R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2009, 10:10 AM   #72
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 11,968
Quote:
Originally Posted by clifp View Post
Bosco, here is the silver lining beside saving yourself 3.95, you also a great deal of anxiety.

Ok I am about 100 pages into the book. I've started to wonder which flavor of cat food will taste best when my portfolio is depleted in 15 years as I realize that as 1999 retiree I hit the jackpot since my sequence of returns (i.e. really bad bear market) is one of the worst in history. Switching to a more conservative AA won't help because the median depletion rate for all AA is the same.

Well somebody please tell me that this book has a happy ending. Death panels are looking better and better. I am tempted to go look for a J*b or w*rk of course they don't really exist in today's economy. Any reporter wanting to do a multimillionaire feeling destitute story, I am your man.
An unfortunate customer service experience to be sure, although I have bought & sold using PayPal for many years without a single problem. Wonder if it was a communication/access problem and not PayPal itself.

It is a very worthwhile read IMO, but I'm an Engineer and I want to see supporting data like he provides. It's realistic, and his recommendations are very workable (I provided a link in an earlier post on this thread that is a similar approach --- in 12 pages, might be an insight). He goes to great lengths (maybe too much at times) to examine all the lore re: retirement planning/accumulation/distribution - and attempts to factually evaluate them all. If nothing else, there is no mystery WRT where his conclusions come from, the work is all shown.

He thinks most of the mainstream advice is flawed, and IMO he's right. As most everyone here well knows, there is uncertainty throughout life, it does not end because one retires --- any model that suggests any certainty is not useful. The only workable approach requires probabilities (not certainties) and flexibility during a long distribution period. I have a e:copy of the Otar pdf if anyone wants to see it...
__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 60% equity funds / 35% bond funds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 2.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2009, 12:30 PM   #73
Full time employment: Posting here.
bosco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 987
Quote:
Originally Posted by michelle View Post
I don't want to necessarily defend Mr. Otar's response, but I wonder if the interaction could be somewhat explained by culture. I have spent substantial time in each country, and I enjoy visiting USA for the exemplary customer service anywhere I choose to spend a nickel. It's just not the same in Canada, IMO. We are more European, in a sense, where the customer may not always be right, and patience with retailers is required. Many Canadian customers will just abandon their efforts if they can't get anywhere with a retailer knowing that complaining may not do much. Lodging formal complaints and letters can be entirely ineffectual at times, whereas I know in America, a verbal or letter of complaint is taken very seriously even if it is baseless (not saying that your issues with Otar's service are baseless, Bosco).
I'm not sure exactly what you mean, Michelle. I am Canadian, and used to being treated more politely by Canadian merchants. This is partially why I was so shocked at rude behavior by this man.

Having spent a lot of time in both countries, I will say that this is an atypical experience, in either country. I have never noticed a lower quality of customer service in Canada, with the possible exception of government agencies.
__________________
I have an inferiority complex, but it's not a very good one.
bosco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2009, 12:31 PM   #74
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 11,017
Quote:
Originally Posted by bosco View Post
I'm not sure exactly what you mean, Michelle. I am Canadian, and used to being treated more politely by Canadian merchants. This is partially why I was so shocked at rude behavior by this man.

Having spent a lot of time in both countries, I will say that this is an atypical experience, in either country. I have never noticed a lower quality of customer service in Canada, with the possible exception of government agencies.
What bosco said.
__________________
Meadbh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2009, 01:04 PM   #75
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 160
Wow, I have not done a lot of shopping in Canada and what I did do was as a tourist. I have only the most positive impressions of customer service there. I bought some discontinued items in a department store, and not only did they check in back and where ever else department stores keep things, they called all over the country to other stores to look for additional inventory - then discounted it some more because I would have to wait for it to arrive. Could not have been more helpful or pleasant about everything. Same story at my lodgings and restaurants. Even at the garage where I stopped to look at strange sounds from rental car. Everyone, everywhere was as nice as could be. Folks in Montreal and Quebec were slightly more reserved until I tried the S'il vous plait and merci (the only French I know and immediately switched to English) and then they were nice as could be as well. I've been there maybe a dozen times in different parts of the country and never had a customer service problem, ever. I guess maybe people have different experiences. If the Canadians are supposed to be more reserved and aloof about customer service I never saw it. My experience was quite the opposite.
__________________
quietman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2009, 04:24 PM   #76
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Moemg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Sarasota,fl.
Posts: 10,031
I sell on ebay so I deal with paypal a lot and in his defense Paypal sometimes has some weird glitches . Bosco , I am sorry you had problems but I have to say for $3.99 it was a great read . Heck it was a great read for $15.99 and I am cheap .
__________________
Moemg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2009, 04:46 PM   #77
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
RonBoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 5,280
[QUOTE=Moemg;852970] Paypal sometimes has some weird glitches ./QUOTE]

I'll say, About five years ago, I tried PayPal... well in the sense that I bought a $7.95 item I needed from someone who only had Paypal as a pay option. Paypal deducted $985 from my Checking Account. For two weeks PayPal blamed me for everything from Stupidity to giving my Passward out.

Anyway, about two weeks later they said they had caught the culprit and refunded my money (well, actually my bank had held up the transaction). No further explanation, nor an apology. I asked PayPal to totally delete any records they had of me since I would never, ever have use for them again. They agreed promised to.

Well, wouldn't you know. Every year I get an e-mail stating their "Privacy Policy." The conversation always goes as it did this year:

(Recognize that the only way to contact them is a silly dialog form)

ME:

customer subject: Why am I still in your records?

customer message: Additional Information: 'I received your "Annual Privacy Policy Notice." Several years ago I asked (begged) you to remove me from your records. You assured me then that you would. Why am I being sent e-mail messages from you?

Let me state my position one more time: Other than that one disasterous time, I have never used your service and never, ever will again.'

THEM:

Dear Ronald Boyd,

Thank you for inquiring as to how to restore access to your account.

PayPal is constantly working to ensure security by regularly screening
the accounts in our system. We recently reviewed your account and need
more information to help us provide you with secure service. Until we
can collect this information, your access to sensitive account features
will be limited.

To return your account to regular standing, please complete the
checklist items indicated when you login to your account and click on
the link provided on the "Account Overview" page.
__________________
"It's tough to make predictions, especially when it involves the future." ~Attributed to many
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is." ~(perhaps by) Yogi Berra
"Those who have knowledge, don't predict. Those who predict, don't have knowledge."~ Lau tzu
RonBoyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2009, 11:11 PM   #78
Full time employment: Posting here.
Darryl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 577
Quote:
Originally Posted by Want2retire View Post
Bosco, I think you were more than reasonable and that his response was out of line. It lowers my (previously neutral) opinion of him. He is obviously taking on more than he can handle and apparently he didn't have the foresight to realize that handling customer service all by himself might be way over his head. His poor judgment in this regard says nothing good at all about his judgment in general.
W2R agreed author doesn't seem very bright.

Bosco thanks for posting your experience. Based on your experience I will not give this guy a nickel either. I took one of them there nationally recognized problem solving tests about ten years ago and scored in the top 2% (wunderlich??), maybe I'll be better off at the library too.

I saw a response about cultures. I am in Canada at least once a year and find the retail staff quite wonderful and I would argue better than my US experience of course as a vacationer in a good mood I may be biased.

I took several hundred emails last year from customers on quality issues I think I sent fewer than 4 emails in response the rest were handled with a phone call. Any idiot knows you can screw up an email response.

I am additionally empathetic with your situation as a top notch techie I know recommended a software security package a few months ago and after paying for it with a credit card, with paypal and I might have even tried a bank draft. They all got rejected so I tried to renew with my current provider and that payment was rejected. A wise man once said don't fight city hall so I signed up for the free service offered by my ISP and saved the money they would have had.

I sometimes get a little excited. You have always come across very reasonable. Thanks for sharing your experience.
__________________
I highjacked a rainbow and crashed into a pot of gold - Bon Jovi
Darryl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2009, 03:49 AM   #79
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,012
wow i am sooooo surprised. so many people on here are willing to not read a persons ideas on how to put together a sucessfull retirement withdraw plan just cus he doesnt have a clue about customer relations. well it is your retirement, more power to you
__________________
jdw_fire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2009, 07:39 AM   #80
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 8,616
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw_fire View Post
wow i am sooooo surprised. so many people on here are willing to not read a persons ideas on how to put together a sucessfull retirement withdraw plan just cus he doesnt have a clue about customer relations. well it is your retirement, more power to you
I imagine if you had read the book Predictably Irrational that you would not be so surprised.

My company sells stuff and you never ever want to piss off any potential customer. Even if they buy from the competitor now, they will probably come back and buy from us eventually --- unless you create a grudge.

Anyways, maybe get the book from the library or a friend if you don't want to deal with Otar.
__________________

__________________
LOL! is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Organic Honey is a Myth Trek Other topics 19 05-09-2009 10:48 PM
Potus Budget Plan Unveiling on 2/23 crazy connie FIRE and Money 30 02-22-2009 03:21 PM
Dividends! Myth? TBPu FIRE and Money 71 01-14-2008 05:44 PM
Financial Myth (i stole this from another financial forum). please, don't sue me. Enuff2Eat FIRE and Money 20 08-19-2007 04:26 PM
The Cat Food Myth LOL! Other topics 15 08-14-2006 06:35 PM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:18 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.