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Old 02-21-2011, 12:17 AM   #81
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but stripping the right to organize and bargain is a nonstarter.
I don't believe they are being stripped of the right to organize. They will lose "closed shop" status which means individuals who, for whatever reason, don't want to join the existing union and pay the dues will be legally free to not join and still be employed. Employees will still be able to organize unions which the state will be legally bound to recognize and negotiate with within the boundaries of the law.
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Old 02-21-2011, 12:44 AM   #82
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why should newly elected politicians have the right to change the rules in the middle of the game? .
For the same reason newly elected union representives and their salaried operatives get to renegotiate periodically. Unions demand the right to put past agreements and promises aside and negotiate for more. The knife cuts both ways.
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Old 02-21-2011, 01:02 AM   #83
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When a new member joins the group and asks about retirement, the almost universal response is track spending and get it under control. I have yet to see a response of 'Full speed ahead, burn those bucks like there is no tomorrow and when you run out, start asking your family, friends, and neighbors for more money". i.e spread the pain of my reckless spending Why does fiscal responsiblity evaporate from an individual to government? Join a condo/homeowner Assoc for a smaller sample of the mentality of people in a group. There is always a percentage of people that like to play fast and reckless with other people's money. The answer is to make this group of people as small of a percentage as possible and track their every move fiscally. i.e. Cut government to the bone, military included.
excellent points.

milton friedman had something to say about this with the bold my emphasis:

There are four ways in which you can spend money. You can spend your own money on yourself. When you do that, why then you really watch out what you're doing, and you try to get the most for your money. Then you can spend your own money on somebody else. For example, I buy a birthday present for someone. Well, then I'm not so careful about the content of the present, but I'm very careful about the cost. Then, I can spend somebody else's money on myself. And if I spend somebody else's money on myself, then I'm sure going to have a good lunch! Finally, I can spend somebody else's money on somebody else. And if I spend somebody else's money on somebody else, I'm not concerned about how much it is, and I'm not concerned about what I get. And that's government. And that's close to 40% of our national income.
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Old 02-21-2011, 01:04 AM   #84
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For the same reason newly elected union representives and their salaried operatives get to renegotiate periodically. Unions demand the right to put past agreements and promises aside and negotiate for more. The knife cuts both ways.
Yes, they will do that but not in the middle of the contract.
I have worked for the feds for 35 years for my retirement benefits. I was told what they were and I worked for them for 35 years. I don't think changing what I have worked and planned for for 35 years is morally or hopefully a legal stand. I would consider anyone to even suggest something like this to be vile and detestable.
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Old 02-21-2011, 01:18 AM   #85
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Yes, they will do that but not in the middle of the contract.
I have worked for the feds for 35 years for my retirement benefits. I was told what they were and I worked for them for 35 years. I don't think changing what I have worked and planned for for 35 years is morally or hopefully a legal stand. I would consider anyone to even suggest something like this to be vile and detestable.
Have you heard anyone (not just on this forum) suggest that your benefits for the 35 yrs you have already worked be changed? Why are you even bringing that subject up on this thread?
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Old 02-21-2011, 01:59 AM   #86
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The argument that the Global Market place will drive the employment of the American worker, will make the American Worker a thing of the past. With the cost of living in this country it is necessary for Americans to earn more than $2.00 a day. Unless you put the entire country in poverty, reduce the costs of goods and services to near nothing, the Global Market Place cannot work.
So Americans have inalienable right to make more than $2 day. How much more $200 day, why not $2,000? So we should insist that Chinese factory worker, toil 12 hours a day at $400 a month, forever so that our government workers can retire in their fifties at pension of $4,000/month.

That may have worked in the past but now that Chinese own a large chunk of our debt they get to call the shots, just like bankers, and loan sharks. I'd like to get us out ahead of the game before the IMF starts dictating our budget. The IMF has done this for a generation to other countries who's excessive spending has gotten them in debt trouble.

American workers are entitled to get paid exactly what they are worth, not a dollar more or a dollar less. The new reality is the Global Market Place is here and ain't going away. The sooner people accept reality the better off we will be. By the way I have great confidence that American workers will continue to enjoy a very high standard of living.
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Old 02-21-2011, 06:29 AM   #87
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I don't believe they are being stripped of the right to organize. They will lose "closed shop" status which means individuals who, for whatever reason, don't want to join the existing union and pay the dues will be legally free to not join and still be employed.
Yes, but your wording suggests you might not know that with an "open shop", individuals are still required to pay dues, and may still be required to join an existing union. My organization was unionized after I went to work there, and though I didn't join the union, I still had to pay its dues. A "closed shop" requires union membership before you can be hired.
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Old 02-21-2011, 06:46 AM   #88
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With the cost of living in this country it is necessary for Americans to earn more than $2.00 a day.
I think we found the problem in your reasoning. Which way does the cause-->effect linkage work:
1) Wages are determined by the cost of goods and services employees must buy

or

2) The cost of goods and services purchased by workers are determined by the ability and willingness of workers to buy them?

Hints: If average wages in an area are $10 per day, will bread cost $6 per loaf in that location? If bread costs $6 per loaf in a location, will wages go up to help workers buy the bread?

Prices are set by supply and demand. The marketplace is global, and those Chinese workers earning $5 per day are our competition. There's no way around that. To keep our standard of living as high as possible, each US worker needs to produce a lot of valuable goods and services each hour. In the coming decades, US workers will probably earn less and Chinese workers will earn more. There's no fighting that with laws, tarriffs, or unions. The only defense we've got is our wits, our ability to produce, and a lean government that puts as little burden on the private workers and private enterprise (the producers) as possible. Which brings us back to the discussion of the issue of public sector unions.
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Old 02-21-2011, 07:55 AM   #89
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