pay off house vs stock market investment

Sorry, I'm just too used to slugging it out with folks who pour bags of apples and oranges on the table and then apply a 6 page spreadsheet to prove that the apples are better than the oranges.

I like both.

I also like simple certainties and birds in the hand.
 
Sorry, I'm just too used to slugging it out with folks who pour bags of apples and oranges on the table and then apply a 6 page spreadsheet to prove that the apples are better than the oranges.

I like both.

I also like simple certainties and birds in the hand.

No need to apologize. I'm just a little slow, cheap, and happy.
 
(snip)
All I know for sure is that I don't owe anyone anything, and - trust me - I closed the door tightly behind me (not a simple task in it's own right, BTW, though no one talks about that these days), so no one can take away anything we have. (snip)

How did you do that, Cheapskate?
 
I have always been in the habit of paying a little extra on my mortgage each month, but now I wonder. I think I am on track to ER in 4 years or so. My plan is to sell my current house, put some of the equity into my nest egg, and use the rest to pay cash for a new place. The house would probably sell now for $25 or 30K less than it was appraised for two years ago, and I wonder what house prices will do over the next few years (actually prices for land and building materials as I want to build it myself).

I am trying to wrap my brain around whether it makes more sense to continue to pay a little extra on the mortgage or stop doing that and put more into savings. Unless the contribution limits go up, such additional savings would have to go into a taxable account since I am already maxing my Roth IRA and tax deferred savings plan at work. If I increase my equity in the house, that's tax free money (proceeds of sale will be under the capital gains ceiling). But if I pay extra and house prices continue to fall, where does that leave me? Is there any way to get a real answer to this, or is it just a
"go with your gut" decision?
 
With all due respect, I don't understand what you're saying....

Don't feel bad - often I don't understand what I'm saying either.

:D Other than to hint that there is a mixture of the rational(aka numerial analysis) and emotional(assessment of Mr Market going forward) and coverage of retirement expenses(budget) that is often summed up by the 'sleep at night' statement/factor.

There - you see I have further confused myself by trying to explain it more clearly.

Handgenade wise I have a vague idea what I'm talking about.

heh heh heh - yep I forgot Pssst - Wellesley. ;).

P.S. I hate to say this but I think I understand CFB's explanation of my explanation better than my own! Hmmmm?
 
I'm with the "pay off the mortgage" crowd. It's a very secure feeling knowing that payment isn't looming every month.
 
Yep, we used to have a guy that posted here who was a fanatic about having a mortgage and arbing it in the stock market.
The other thing that goes wrong with this argument is comparing the mortgage to stock market returns. No risk adjustment. How has everyone felt about their equity investments over the last 2 years? Anyone feel the urge to change something or bail out? How about in 2000-2003?
Thing is, a mortgage arb since 1999 went badly when using equities. Whats stupider is that most people paid more in mortgage interest than they got from their cash and fixed income investments during the same period. You loaned money out for less interest than the money you borrowed.
So even adjusted for risk, it was a loser and compared with comparable risk investments, it was still a loser.
I a normal market I'd say it's close to a wash. In this market I'd say DCA now and pay off the mortgage later. I'm keeping my mortgage.
Well, I'm no fanatic, but I'm in Animorph's camp and I have the data to back it up.

http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/showpost.php?p=725747&postcount=80

Short story-- 5.44% after-tax APY on a 5.375% mortgage after four years of payments.
 
i faced this very same decision back in 1999. i had been saving up for a new car. when i had enough, i realized i could take that $ and pay off our mortgage balance with no prepayment penalty. of course, anyone i asked said to invest it in the then tech bubbling stock market. :eek:
3 doors: new car? pay off mortgage? invest it?
i picked door #2, pay off mortgage and never regretted it. what a feeling of freedom! i then took the extra cash freed up and invested it thru DCA.
i also waited a few years (02) and bought a used car.
maybe a combo of both would work for you. pay off a big chunk of mortgage balance and invest some. it all depends on your cash flow and j*b stability situtations.
 
Short story-- 5.44% after-tax APY on a 5.375% mortgage after four years of payments.

Yeah but you're doing it a little bit differently than 99% of the people who attempt it, and you just might have the investing discipline to stick with it, while I suspect many dont.

http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/showpost.php?p=606475&postcount=75

Investing the mortgage balance 100% in small cap value, having no bonds or other fixed income, and cola adjusted pensions that can cover the mortgage payments and then some. As I mentioned in the linked posts, you've got the knobs set to 11. Most people arent going to turn them much past 6 or 7.

Plus I was originally talking about a different nut. ;)
 
I have a goal of retiring in 5-8 years. I do have significantly extra cash flow just from living below our means. I can use it to pay off our mortgage in as quickly as 3 years vs dollar cost average into the market, where we have invested approx 1.2 million already. We need about 2 million for me to retire. I'm looking for opinions as to which may be the best strategy in light of the current economic situation. Thanks ahead of time.

Another consideration for paying off the mortgage early: How secure is your income surplus over the next 8 years? One may have a significant extra cash flow now but...

I paid off my house 3 years before ER in 2002. Never regreted it, and boy it shure feels good now!
 
I have a goal of retiring in 5-8 years. I do have significantly extra cash flow just from living below our means. I can use it to pay off our mortgage in as quickly as 3 years vs dollar cost average into the market, where we have invested approx 1.2 million already. We need about 2 million for me to retire. I'm looking for opinions as to which may be the best strategy in light of the current economic situation. Thanks ahead of time.

(Emphasis added.)

Just a parenthetical comment: On debates such as these, I think there is a bias towards setting courses of action based on what has worked well in the recent past.

I once wondered what people in general recommended as the maximum percentage of a portfolio to hold in their employer's stock. At the time, I was approaching 10% of my portfolio in my employer's stock, and was wondering when other people would recommend I diversify.

I found several interesting things: First, every recommendation I found was wishy-washy and was not objective enough to be a useful measuring stick. Second, the percentage recommended pre-Enron was averaging 10-20%; post-Enron it dropped to 5-10%. Third, very few looked at the question objectively over the long haul (such as Nords has above).

I think the same thing applies here. People who have done well recently by paying off their houses are now glad about their choice -- and rightfully so -- and are commenting in this thread about how great it is. Personally, I have been playing the "get a low fixed rate mortgage and invest the rest" arbitrage game and plan to continue to do so. It has not worked out well for me over the past year or two but I expect that over the next five to ten years it will work out to my advantage. I am banking on the future being roughly like the past.

2Cor521
 
Well, I'm no fanatic, but I'm in Animorph's camp and I have the data to back it up.

http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/showpost.php?p=725747&postcount=80

Short story-- 5.44% after-tax APY on a 5.375% mortgage after four years of payments.

I wasn't going to argue this particular religious POV, but I'm glad a well respected forum member made the point.

Just like with many other situations that wouldn't make sense for your average Joe off the street, there are many people on this forum who have the self discipline and knowledge to make an informed decision regarding carrying/arbing a mortgage. In my case it's just a matter of diversifying so I don't have too large a portion of my money tied up in an illiquid form. I can pay the mortgage off at any time, the tax break helps, and by cautious investing I also increase my probability of not outliving my portfolio by carrying the mortgage.

I think paying off a mortgage is a great move for most, but I do see times when carrying one makes a lot of sense too.
 
Firecalc has the answer

Just do a firecalc analysis of the 2 scenarios for your case. Larger portfolio with higher expenses, or smaller portfolio with lower expenses. In our case the answer was clear -- pay it off.

Also, in this market, a 100% guaranteed 6% return is pretty hard to resist.
 
Just do a firecalc analysis of the 2 scenarios for your case. Larger portfolio with higher expenses, or smaller portfolio with lower expenses. In our case the answer was clear -- pay it off.

Also, in this market, a 100% guaranteed 6% return is pretty hard to resist.

FWIW, we did the following.

1. Never had any debt whatsover except a mortgage. That meant no car for 1st 18 months of marriage (but this was England in 1976 where public transport was a viable alternative). Have always had a "car" account where we pay ourselves a car note.

2. Once we were maxing out 401(k)s and IRAs in the mid 90's and had extra cash we set out a payment schedule to pay down principal at a rate to match mortgage paid off when first of kids went to college in 1999.

3. College years were over end of 2006 so all the extra cash now going into ER stash at the 40/50/10 allocation we are now at for our retirement years.

It feels good to have no debt at all, kids left home and working. I won't argue the financial options as for us it mostly a feel good thing
 
(Emphasis added.)I think the same thing applies here. People who have done well recently by paying off their houses are now glad about their choice -- and rightfully so -- and are commenting in this thread about how great it is.

How could it not be so? If someone had $1mm in a Firecalc endorsed 70:30 split and removed $250,000 to pay off her mortgage on Jan 1, 2008, she has saved herself from a $50,000 drawdown and has been less nervous to boot. What's not to love?

But it is as meaningless as any other timing dependent choice. Sometimes you win, sometimes not. As long as your probability matrix is more or less accurate and you don't overextend, no problem how you play it.

Ha
 
Also, in this market, a 100% guaranteed 6% return is pretty hard to resist.


Paying off your mortgage is like a 30 year or shorter simple annuity that pays off your mortgage, not a bond. So 6% is actually not too great.

I did take out a HELOC in August 2001 and invested it all before 9/11. I left it in for 4 to 5 years, which did take some disipline through 2002. I finally reached break even (including interest) and pulled out. If I had stayed in I would have made a good return, but I had a HELOC renewal coming up in two years and didn't want to be forced to liquidate.

I have a mortgage at 6% with no plans to pay it off. My personal rate of return is higher than 6%, so the mortgage has been a plus so far. If the market goes down another 10% or so I may use the just renewed HELOC to try it again. So far I have been returning cash to the market as it drops.
 
Paying off your mortgage is like a 30 year or shorter simple annuity that pays off your mortgage, not a bond. So 6% is actually not too great.

I don't understand this. I get the fact that a bond has a return of capital at the end, vs and annuity which doesn't, but how is the cost of money not comparable? If there was a spread, wouldn't people be funding bonds with annuities or vice versa?
 
A mortgage is a 30 year bond you've issued to the bank, and you pay the interest to them, so comparisons between fixed income returns and mortgage costs are spot on.

Its also a little too simplistic to say "I make more than my mortgage rate, so I'm making money".

Are you investing more conservatively with a mortgage than you would without one? The difference is a loss. Are you holding more cash with a mortgage than you would without one? Take the smaller returns for cash out of your investing returns. Have you implemented other backup plans that have a cost?

Nords sidesteps all of this by putting his mortgage money into the highest return, highest volatility equity class, having no fixed income, and having an assured cola adjusted income. And he's barely squeaking out a profit.

Maybe the best way to look at the situation is to determine the worst plausible outcome of both options.

In one case, if you get very ill, lose your job or suffer major investing losses, you also lose your home. In the other case...well...nothing really bad happens as long as you can cough up the property taxes.

By the way, all of this presumes we're talking about moderately capitalized early retirees. If you're still working, are over or undercapitalized, or like 100% equity portfolios and have the discipline to stick it out through a long bear market like the Depression or Stagflation periods, or you have a rate thats <5%, then you oughta have a mortgage.
 
Nice summary Bunny.

Reminds me of 2001. My megacorp was close to bankrupcy. Been laying off thousands of folks at all levels for the whole year, but I had some peace of mind knowing that I had no mortgage. If laid off, the 2 kids in college could get student loans etc. I was confident I could another another job within a few months, but not having a mortgage meant the cash reserves should carry me through easily enough.
 
How could it not be so? If someone had $1mm in a Firecalc endorsed 70:30 split and removed $250,000 to pay off her mortgage on Jan 1, 2008, she has saved herself from a $50,000 drawdown and has been less nervous to boot. What's not to love?

But it is as meaningless as any other timing dependent choice. Sometimes you win, sometimes not. As long as your probability matrix is more or less accurate and you don't overextend, no problem how you play it.

Ha

I can't tell if we're talking past each other or not. I'm somewhat curious to find out. I also want to clarify my position for anyone else interested.

When we make decisions about the future, there are probabilities about what will happen, there is our decision, and then there is what actually ends up happening.

My point is simply that it makes more sense to me to attempt to evaluate my decisions based on whether or not I assessed the probabilities correctly and made the right decision and less on what the actual outcome was.

Let me use a series of bets on a coin toss to clarify my points:

1. You tell me you have a fair coin, I can choose to bet on heads or tails. I put up a $1, and you pay me $100 if I guess correctly.

a. I choose to bet and I win. I would choose to feel good about this, partly because I'm ahead $99, but more so because I believe I assessed the odds correctly.

b. I choose to bet and I lose. I would choose to feel good about this even though I lost $1, again because I believe I assessed the odds correctly and made a good decision, even though the outcome was bad.

2. Same as (1), but you only pay me 50 cents if I win.

a. I choose to bet and I win. I wouldn't feel good about this because, even though I won, I would have made a bad bet in the sense that the probabilities didn't favor a payoff.

Back to the mortgage case: I am in situation 1(b) - I've placed a bet that the probabilities tell me I should win over time, but so far I happen to be losing. While I'm not happy about having less wealth than I would have had if I had made a different set of decisions, I still think it was a good decision because I think the basis for my bet was valid and I just happen to have been unlucky so far.

There of course, may be some feedback from the actual outcome to what the probabilities actually turned out to be. If you claim to have a fair coin but then the coin starts turning up tails 90% of the time, I'm going to revisit my assumptions. If in 15 years the S&P is still in it's current range and inflation between now and then has run at 2% annually, then I'll admit I made a bad choice and will be suitably regretful.

It depends on how one sets one's assumptions or predictions, I guess. In a sense both the people who decided to pay off their mortgage recently and have done well by that decision, and the people like me (and Nords) who have decided to try to arb a mortgage are both looking at past history to set those assumptions. The former are looking at a smaller time frame and a smaller data set and extrapolating to the larger question; the latter are looking at greater time frames and a larger data set to try to interpolate to an individual situation.

2Cor521
 
By the way, all of this presumes we're talking about moderately capitalized early retirees. If you're still working, are over or undercapitalized, or like 100% equity portfolios and have the discipline to stick it out through a long bear market like the Depression or Stagflation periods, or you have a rate thats <5%, then you oughta have a mortgage.

still working - check
over or undercapitalized - check
like 100% equity portfolios - check
have the discipline - check
a rate thats <5% - check

have a mortgage - check

Phew!

2Cor521
 
I can't tell if we're talking past each other or not. I'm somewhat curious to find out. I also want to clarify my position for anyone else interested.

When we make decisions about the future, there are probabilities about what will happen, there is our decision, and then there is what actually ends up happening.

My point is simply that it makes more sense to me to attempt to evaluate my decisions based on whether or not I assessed the probabilities correctly and made the right decision and less on what the actual outcome was.

Let me use a series of bets on a coin toss to clarify my points:

1. You tell me you have a fair coin, I can choose to bet on heads or tails. I put up a $1, and you pay me $100 if I guess correctly.

a. I choose to bet and I win. I would choose to feel good about this, partly because I'm ahead $99, but more so because I believe I assessed the odds correctly.

b. I choose to bet and I lose. I would choose to feel good about this even though I lost $1, again because I believe I assessed the odds correctly and made a good decision, even though the outcome was bad.

2. Same as (1), but you only pay me 50 cents if I win.

a. I choose to bet and I win. I wouldn't feel good about this because, even though I won, I would have made a bad bet in the sense that the probabilities didn't favor a payoff.

There of course, may be some feedback from the actual outcome to what the probabilities actually turned out to be. If you claim to have a fair coin but then the coin starts turning up tails 90% of the time, I'm going to revisit my assumptions.

It depends on how one sets one's assumptions or predictions, I guess. In a sense both the people who decided to pay off their mortgage recently and have done well by that decision, and the people like me (and Nords) who have decided to try to arb a mortgage are both looking at past history to set those assumptions. The former are looking at a smaller time frame and a smaller data set and extrapolating to the larger question; the latter are looking at greater time frames and a larger data set to try to interpolate to an individual situation.

2Cor521

Hey Bible Man- you have just saved me the tuition on a probability matrix and decision tree course at my local CC.

Ha
 
You could buy a 30 year (or whatever) annuity to pay your mortgage payments exactly, with no excess interest or principal return. The value of paying off the mortgage is exactly the value of that annuity.

What bond pays you 6% while also returning some of your principal each month?

If you have an interest only mortgage and you sell the house to return your principal after 30 years, then you have a bond equivalent.
 
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