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View Poll Results: Qs 1&2: Did you will you delay SS to 70; Qs3 &4-Did you/ will you buy annuity?
yes 19 24.05%
no 10 12.66%
yes 12 15.19%
no 38 48.10%
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Old 12-06-2013, 08:40 AM   #21
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Hope this isn't sidetracking the conversation too much but I've been thinking of buying a SPIA inside my Roth IRA. Is this a reasonable approach to provide a continuing stream of tax exempt income?
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Old 12-06-2013, 08:46 AM   #22
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IF you decide a SPIA makes sense for you (regular income, peace of mind, etc.) then I would think a Roth would be a perfect place to have it. At least, it would avoid the tax nightmare that ETFs_Rule mentioned a few posts ago.
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Old 12-06-2013, 08:50 AM   #23
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Yes for 70 and No for annuity. The survivor benefit for the SS at 70 is really important for DW.
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Old 12-06-2013, 11:25 AM   #24
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Yes (at least that's the plan) and No for us.

Modeling waiting until 70 to collect SS, as it makes a pretty big difference for me and DW in terms of what we may get (47 now) ... frankly not counting on getting much anyway. SS will be a small portion of our FIRE income, so why not maximize if we can afford it.

No on annuity unless there is a material decline in our port returns. I've looked at the models and the $$$ you need to fork over for any kind of decent annuity is just so large in relation to the payouts (esp if you're >50 YO), that I really struggle to see how even a DIY reasonable portfolio couldn't do better than the underlying investments the insurers use to fund the payment streams.
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Old 12-06-2013, 02:42 PM   #25
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SS at 70 is logical for me because of some longevity genes I have probably inherited. Late 90s would be quite possible for me, which is far beyond any break-even point.

Too soon to say about buying an annuity, although I could see at least the possibility of a SPIA at some point down the road.
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Old 12-06-2013, 03:17 PM   #26
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Quote:
thinking of buying a SPIA inside my Roth IRA. Is this a reasonable approach to provide a continuing stream of tax exempt income?
Do you mean "tax deferred"? Eventually an annuity is taxed at the ordinary income rate. Normal investments (outside of retirement accounts) are taxed at a lower rate. It's not what you make, but rather what you get to keep after Uncle Sam takes his cut.
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Old 12-06-2013, 03:30 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by ETFs_Rule View Post
Do you mean "tax deferred"? Eventually an annuity is taxed at the ordinary income rate.
No, not in the case that is being considered. If the SPIA is set up within a Roth IRA (and funded according to the Roth IRA rules) then all payments from the SPIA will be tax free. Gotta meet all the regular Roth rules (5 year wait for tax free interest/growth, etc). And, using a Roth for an annuity does give up the ability (inherent in other Roth IRA methods) to pass along this tax-free income to children, but for some people this is not an issue.
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Aren't Roth Earnings Tax Free
Old 12-06-2013, 03:31 PM   #28
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Aren't Roth Earnings Tax Free

Quote:
Do you mean "tax deferred"? Eventually an annuity is taxed at the ordinary income rate.
I meant "tax free". My understanding was that the earnings from a Roth were never taxed. If this isn't true for the proceeds from a SPIA (inside the Roth) then it would obviously be a very bad option.
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Old 12-06-2013, 03:47 PM   #29
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To an earlier post about using a SPIA inside a Roth, I see it differently. Like many I may purchase a SPIA at age 75 and up and if I do I will do so with after tax money. When one buys an annuity this way, there is a tax benefit due to the structure of the payments which are made from interest earnings, survivorship credits and return of principal. The return of the principal is not taxed. I don't want to shelter income if it isn't going to be taxed anyway.

So if part of my annuity income isn't taxed I wouldn't use a Roth. Instead I would use the Roth for the rest of investments where the tax savings would be more advantageous.
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Old 12-06-2013, 03:57 PM   #30
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Here's a short WSJ article on having an annuity inside of a Roth IRA.

Like Independent, I'd probably only buy an annuity if I were heading into Otar's danger zone: getting older, assets falling, and looking like I might not have enough to generate a monthly income to have a satisfactory quality of life. At that point I'd be in a fairly low tax bracket, so the whole "Roth or after-tax" question for funding it becomes only a minor issue.
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Old 12-06-2013, 04:02 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by misanman View Post
I meant "tax free". My understanding was that the earnings from a Roth were never taxed. If this isn't true for the proceeds from a SPIA (inside the Roth) then it would obviously be a very bad option.
You are correct. The annuity payments would be tax free because the are being distributed from the Roth (assumes the Roth account funds and owns the SPIA).

If a tIRA bought the annuity then the annuity payments would be 100% taxable (assumes deductible tIRA). If a taxable account bought the annuity then the annuity payments would be part income and part return of principal.
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Old 12-06-2013, 08:45 PM   #32
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What if a person takes SS at 62 and 70? Claim and suspend type options.
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Old 12-06-2013, 10:38 PM   #33
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We will take SS earlier than 70 (currently considering age 63), as that plus my pension will likely be enough to cover our projected expenses, and give us more flexibility with our savings/investments. No need for an annuity due to my pension.
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Old 12-07-2013, 09:43 AM   #34
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I will take SS at 70, but I am currently taking SS under my wife's account. No on annuities. I have a pension.
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Old 12-07-2013, 03:01 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by ETFs_Rule View Post
Annuities are crap financial products. So easy to do better with a conservative portfolio of stock / bond based ETF's. There's so many commission hungry annuity salesmen out there saying good things about them that people start believing that they're "an important part of a portfolio". Nonfiduciary "advisers" typically earn between 5 and 10% when selling annuities. With index annuities and SPIA's the insurance company compensates for that commission by reducing what they pay you. All annuities are also a tax nightmare. With SPIA's and other annuities that have an "income phase" you cannot get out of the contract for life. Kiss your principal goodbye if you ever need it.
Sorry, this is only applicable if you buy from an insurance company. I pay no salesperson. There is no tax because I am withdrawing from my account. I can get all my balance back within 5 days of purchase. My payments keep going up as does my balance.

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