Poll:FIREcalc real world feedback

FIREcalc vs. Reality

  • I'm on FIRE!

    Votes: 7 15.6%
  • I'm cautiously optimistic.

    Votes: 16 35.6%
  • I'm falling and I can't get up.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • It's too soon to tell.

    Votes: 22 48.9%

  • Total voters
    45
  • Poll closed .

Texconsin

Recycles dryer sheets
Joined
Oct 12, 2014
Messages
78
Location
Katy
And though (I'm sure) it's been said, many times, many ways (trying to get in the Christmas spirit on a cloudy Texas day...a lot like back home, but no snow)...

How's the FIREcalc working out? Do you find yourself heading to the top of the range or not so much? Have you been "unemployed the good way" long enough to judge or are you so recent that the great market returns since 2009 have skewed your chart...that's SKEWED...the other may be coming all too soon.
 
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I don't understand the question.

FIRECalc vs reality?

FIRECalc simply reports what has happened in the past. It is reality.

-ERD50
 
I think I generally understand what you are asking about FIREcal... But, a couple of clarifying questions.

Have you been "unemployed the good way"
Sorry, but what does this mean? (unemployed the good way)?


the other may be coming all too soon.
I don't understand what you are trying to say here either.
 
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I think Texconsin is asking if Firecalc is more optimistic than recent returns or less optimistic.

But as ERD50 points out - firecalc is based on historical returns... so it's reality based.

No one can predict the future - but we can use worst case past returns to check our plans... and we can add in any extra fudge factors we want to.... or not...
 
Okie Dokie - FireCalc has held up fair to middling. It's Reality that won't cooperate.

21 years - you might say preceding the posting of FireCalc some and before reading about 4%.

Unemployed at age 49, making the mental shift to ER, Katrina, moving 1000 miles inland(on a big hill), death of a girlfriend after 29 yrs, remarriage to widow and moving again to 'big city' sort of relative to the burbs and learning to spend up with FireCalc.

Several times a year run FireCalc, i-ORP, and the Vanguard Retirement Nest Egg Calculator.

Handgrenade wise I'm(we) are usually in the ballpark but track to the cheap side of expenses (ie tend to actually underrun input or projection).

heh heh heh - 2007-2010 was an interesting ride but did the Boglehead 'Stay The Course.' :greetings10: :cool: Not without some grippiness at times though.
 
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I believe the question is "Have your "real" results matched what Firecalc "predicted?"


Sent from my iCouch using Early Retirement Forum
 
I believe the question is "Have your "real" results matched what Firecalc "predicted?"


Sent from my iCouch using Early Retirement Forum

Yes, my actual results after 9 years of FIRE fall within the extremely broad range of FireCalc's historical testing results.

I recall at the beginning noting that FireCalc's output data and graph indicated that during my first decade I could experience huge losses and take a wild ride down. Or, I could experience huge gains and have more than I ever thought was possible. Or I could be somewhere inbetween. Sure enough, I'm somewhere inbetween. FireCalc was right on.
 
I don't understand the question.

FIRECalc vs reality?

FIRECalc simply reports what has happened in the past. It is reality.

-ERD50

You understand!
 
I believe the question is "Have your "real" results matched what Firecalc "predicted?"


Sent from my iCouch using Early Retirement Forum

The problem is the word "predicted" because Firecalc is not a forecaster, it is a "backcaster", and all of its squiggly lines have start and end dates in the past, none in the future, no attempt at prediction.

I used Firecalc, Fidelity RIP, and the Financial Engines retirement planners in the run up to my decision to ER. 2 of those tools do use statistical calculations to predict future returns. (Monty Carlo simulations)
 
Well, I was attempting to restate the OP as I understood it, but nevertheless I think users of FIRECalc, to varying degrees, use it to infer, predict, or make a SWAG as to how "safe" there portfolio is...


Sent from my iCouch using Early Retirement Forum
 
Well, I was attempting to restate the OP as I understood it, but nevertheless I think users of FIRECalc, to varying degrees, use it to infer, predict, or make a SWAG as to how "safe" there portfolio is...


Sent from my iCouch using Early Retirement Forum

Exactly.

heh heh heh - :cool:
 
I am not retired, but I have been doing some 'playing around' with FireCalc.

I think one of Firecalc's downsides, especially for longer retirement periods, is its use of real data. If you want a 40-year horizon, Firecalc does not look at years past 1974. There are some pretty turbulent years since then. I always want to know would I do OK 'no matter what'.

I took my investment account and divided by 4. Left the income and expenses as-is. And then calculated for only 10 years. And I also did a few other variations of this, 5 years, 20 years, etc.

I am not sure if this help anything, just thought I would chime in and add it.
 
I think I generally understand what you are asking about FIREcal... But, a couple of clarifying questions.

Sorry, but what does this mean? (unemployed the good way)?


I don't understand what you are trying to say here either.

Unemployed the good way = retirement.

The other thing that might be coming all too soon, instead of skewed, is screwed.

I'll try not to try to be funny anymore.
 
This isn't accurate. You either don't understand how FIRECalc works or need to work on improving your communication skills. :)

The way I understand it, using the total market option, Firecalc looks at data from 1871. It runs 40 years from 1871, then starts again at 1872 for 40 years, etc. Since there are no 40 year periods after 1975, it cannot evaluate years after 1975.

UPDATE: It cannot evaluate years emulating as if you started/FIRED after 1975.

"FIRECalc looked at the 104 possible 40 year periods in the available data"


Using the "Mixed Portfolio", based on performance since 1927, It can only look at 39 cycles.
"FIRECalc looked at the 39 possible 40 year periods". I am not sure why only 39, rather than 48, but that's what it says.

Please enlighten me if I am not understanding FireCalc's methodology.
 
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The problem is the word "predicted" because Firecalc is not a forecaster, it is a "backcaster", and all of its squiggly lines have start and end dates in the past, none in the future, no attempt at prediction.

I used Firecalc, Fidelity RIP, and the Financial Engines retirement planners in the run up to my decision to ER. 2 of those tools do use statistical calculations to predict future returns. (Monty Carlo simulations)

I'd like to be able to mouse-point at a few of the "squigglies" to see which years (in my conservative choice of 20 until R.I.P.) are which. Likely only the outliers would be possible, as they bunch too much at the norms. But it's the outliers I'd like to identify. Just how DO I get to Boardwalk (or Mediterranean Avenue)?
 
Please enlighten me if I am not understanding FireCalc's methodology.
Since you want to look at 40 year periods, FIRECalc would would begin with the period 1871-1911, then 1872-1912, 1873-1913, and subsequent periods all the way up to and including the 40 year period ending in 2013 (1973-2013), including the years of 1974 through 2013 in the appropriate sequences.

It is accurate to say FIRECalc looks at no 40 year periods "beginning 1974 or later" as there aren't 40 years of data after 1973. That is until FIRECalc gets updated next year with 2014 data...
 
Since you want to look at 40 year periods, FIRECalc would would begin with the period 1871-1911, then 1872-1912, 1873-1913, and subsequent periods all the way up to and including the 40 year period ending in 2013 (1973-2013), including the years of 1974 through 2013 in the appropriate sequences.

It is accurate to say FIRECalc looks at no 40 year periods "beginning 1974 or later" as there aren't 40 years of data after 1973. That is until FIRECalc gets updated next year with 2014 data...

Yes, that is what I was trying to say.

To take advantage of more/different data, I choose 20 years, rather than 40, and use 1/2 of my assets. I am not sure if that is still statistically better or worse than 40 years and 100% of my assets, but I run it just to see.

Then I use 10 years/25%, and some other options. It would be interesting to see a loop back to the data, (maybe an option?) just to get more recent starting periods. I am not sure if it would be better or worse, just different.
 
Senator - a method suggested a while back to address the longer retirement (but it is exceptionally pessimistic) is to do the following:

Run firecalc with full portfolio for 10 years.
- Extract the LOWEST number as final amount.
Plug that in for 10 years.
Rinse and repeat 2 more times.

BUT - and this is a big but - this is repeating the same WORST 10 years, back to back, 4 times in a row. Statistically, that's not happening in real life. But it is a very conservative approach.

Unfortunately - it will put you in OMY mode till you die.

If you really want to get gloomy - do it for a 3 year or 5 year period... so you repeat back to back bears with no bulls. It's not a realistic model - but it might justify OMY forever for those that are afraid to pull the plug.
 
Senator - a method suggested a while back to address the longer retirement (but it is exceptionally pessimistic) is to do the following:

Run firecalc with full portfolio for 10 years.
- Extract the LOWEST number as final amount.
Plug that in for 10 years.
Rinse and repeat 2 more times.

BUT - and this is a big but - this is repeating the same WORST 10 years, back to back, 4 times in a row. Statistically, that's not happening in real life. But it is a very conservative approach.

Unfortunately - it will put you in OMY mode till you die.

If you really want to get gloomy - do it for a 3 year or 5 year period... so you repeat back to back bears with no bulls. It's not a realistic model - but it might justify OMY forever for those that are afraid to pull the plug.

It's nice Firecalc give you the high, low and average, so you do not have to look at the lines :banghead:. But a cut/paste of the numbers includes a comma. And the comma makes for a different result. It ignores everything after the first comma. 1,000,000 becomes 1.

It is another option. Let's hope we do not have the 'groundhog day effect', repeating the same bad years over and over...
 
I think this may be good as I'm having difficulty understanding what you are saying/asking on this and other threads.

I had no problem understanding the question or the pun, and that's probably because I'm interested in the question and am 10 weeks from being "unemployed in a good way." That is, if I don't unemploy myself in a good way by quitting sooner.
 
I saw this thread a while back, but only now decided to throw my 2 cents in and hopefully will not cause more confusion. I cannot read the OP's mind, but I suppose the question could be rephrased as follows: "Was your own retirement financial situation within the range of past outcomes shown by FIRECalc?".

One can set up a simple run to see the outcome range for himself. Use a $1M portfolio, an annual expense of $40K (for 4%WR), an AA of middling 50 Long Interest / 50 Total Market, no other income. I use a 10 year run because most ER's here who use FIRECalc have been retired for a shorter time than that.

And FIRECalc says that at the end of 10 years, using history as a guide, your $1M could have shrunk to $386K or grown to $2.178M. That's a huge range of 5.6:1.

I think it is rare that an individual result would fall outside the above range. I think all posters here are within this range. Well, I am sure there are some who dropped out of the forum and went back to work with their stash decimated, and the respondents here are a self-selecting group. But I hasten to add that the failed ER's most likely caused the failure themselves by buying high/selling low, or by overspending.

But that last observation brings us back to the original premise: FIRECalc shows what could have happened if you invested and spent exactly as your input data to the program. And I do not see myself doing that. I could be higher or lower, depending on how I invest and how I spend. Still, that's a huge range and one has to do a lot of lucky or bad things to fall outside.

Allow me to digress a bit here. I wonder if people who rebalance exactly on Jan 1st and control their spending to an exact WR do that to improve the chance that their outcome will stay within the realm of FIRECalc result. Even so, it's still a hell of a range though.

Finally, I remember another ER forum where a 50/50 hypothetical portfolio was tracked through the lost decade of 2000-2010. I have not been back to that forum, but as I recall the result was miserable, and did not look to be much higher than the $386K worst case shown by FIRECalc. And of course, FIRECalc by now has already incorporated that 10-year period.

So, to really answer the question of whether a user of FIRECalc (with all the caveats of his investment and spending habits being exactly like his data input) in 2000 would find his result within the program output range (as history unfolds as the result of 2000-2010 was not known back in 2000), I would have to see where the 2000-2010 period fits within all the previous 10-year periods. Ah, that takes a bit of work and I do not feel like doing it now, but suspect that the 2000-2010 did not set a new worst case.

PS. FIRECalc's results are inflation-adjusted. So, in the worst case of $386K after 10 years, our hapless retiree has more than $386K in nominal dollars. That may help alleviate his pain, as he now has more money (worth less) to count.

PPS. OK, I got the answer about the 2000-2010 period. It was lousy, but still far above the worst case 10-year periods of 1912-1922 and 1973-1983.
 
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