Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Probably a stupid question
Old 10-13-2019, 01:56 PM   #1
Moderator
rodi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: San Diego
Posts: 14,140
Probably a stupid question

My younger son (age 16) is a go getter, and has been working at a W2 job since July. This will be the first year we have to file taxes for him.

My question has to do with the ACA and the premium tax credits. Will his income count towards the family MAGI? Will we lose our PTCs?

Like I said - this will be the first year we have to deal with this... his older brother avoided working at all costs.... Sigh...
__________________
Retired June 2014. No longer an enginerd - now I'm just a nerd.
micro pensions 6%, rental income 20%
rodi is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 10-13-2019, 02:09 PM   #2
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
pb4uski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sarasota, FL & Vermont
Posts: 36,204
Looks to me like it will count... but I "think" that you could reduce that income to the extent needed by having him make a deductible IRA contribution.... or you making a deductible IRA contribution for him to regain your ACA subsidy.
__________________
If something cannot endure laughter.... it cannot endure.
Patience is the art of concealing your impatience.
Slow and steady wins the race.

Retired Jan 2012 at age 56
pb4uski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2019, 02:19 PM   #3
Full time employment: Posting here.
FlaGator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: The 850
Posts: 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodi View Post
My younger son (age 16) is a go getter, and has been working at a W2 job since July. This will be the first year we have to file taxes for him.

My question has to do with the ACA and the premium tax credits. Will his income count towards the family MAGI? Will we lose our PTCs?

Like I said - this will be the first year we have to deal with this... his older brother avoided working at all costs.... Sigh...
My understanding is that if he is "not required to file", his earnings are not included for the purpose of determining family MAGI. Filing solely to get his refund does not meet the test. The "required to file" threshold is $12,000 for him in 2019. Look at Page 3, "Household Income" of the Form 8962 instructions:

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i8962.pdf

https://www.irs.gov/forms-pubs/about-publication-501

Online IRS questionnaire to answer the question about his need to file. Takes you through about everything you could get a W-2 or 1099 for. Did it for a single 16 yr old dependent with $11,000 of earnings and no unearned income - not "required to file", except to get a refund:
https://www.irs.gov/help/ita/do-i-ne...e-a-tax-return
__________________
Stay at home slacker dad 2015-August 2024. With the last kid gone, now actually retired
FlaGator is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2019, 02:22 PM   #4
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 859
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodi View Post
Will his income count towards the family MAGI?
Depends on whether he is required to file or not. See https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p501.pdf (look for the 2019 version if his wages are only a little above the 2018 limit).

See also instructions for form 8962 line 2b in https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i8962.pdf.
SevenUp is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2019, 02:24 PM   #5
Moderator
rodi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: San Diego
Posts: 14,140
Quote:
Originally Posted by pb4uski View Post
Looks to me like it will count... but I "think" that you could reduce that income to the extent needed by having him make a deductible IRA contribution.... or you making a deductible IRA contribution for him to regain your ACA subsidy.
Good idea. It's close to the cliff - so I can fine tune the IRA contribution to keep us a safe amount below.

I've already told him I'll match him 100% on an IRA contribution... so he will have some encouragement to save. We just haven't set it up.
__________________
Retired June 2014. No longer an enginerd - now I'm just a nerd.
micro pensions 6%, rental income 20%
rodi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2019, 04:28 PM   #6
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
pb4uski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sarasota, FL & Vermont
Posts: 36,204
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlaGator View Post
My understanding is that if he is "not required to file", his earnings are not included for the purpose of determining family MAGI. Filing solely to get his refund does not meet the test. The "required to file" threshold is $12,000 for him in 2019. Look at Page 3, "Household Income" of the Form 8962 instructions:

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i8962.pdf

https://www.irs.gov/forms-pubs/about-publication-501

Online IRS questionnaire to answer the question about his need to file. Takes you through about everything you could get a W-2 or 1099 for. Did it for a single 16 yr old dependent with $11,000 of earnings and no unearned income - not "required to file", except to get a refund:
https://www.irs.gov/help/ita/do-i-ne...e-a-tax-return
Learn something new every day!
__________________
If something cannot endure laughter.... it cannot endure.
Patience is the art of concealing your impatience.
Slow and steady wins the race.

Retired Jan 2012 at age 56
pb4uski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2019, 06:19 PM   #7
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
SecondCor521's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Boise
Posts: 7,863
You've gotten good and accurate advice and information so far, so I won't repeat it except to say I'm in a similar situation with my 16DS and came to the same conclusions.

I'll bring up another idea for consideration. Depending on how much of a go-getter he is, and if/when he starts college, you may consider trying to get him to be an independent from an IRS point of view as early as possible. If he is not your dependent, then he won't be included in your "ACA tax family" and thus his income won't affect your ACA subsidy. There are lots of other things to think about strategy-wise as to whether it's good or not to have him be a dependent, so you'd need to look at it holistically.

Also, regardless of whether or not he is an IRS independent, he probably won't be a FAFSA independent for college financial aid purposes. If you think you'll get aid, be aware that 50% of his earnings (and a chunk of his non-IRA savings) will be "taxed" in the form of a lower EFC. FAFSA is based on prior-prior years, so it would be the calendar year of his junior year spring / senior year fall that would affect his freshman aid. It may make sense for him to make very large IRA contributions.
__________________
"At times the world can seem an unfriendly and sinister place, but believe us when we say there is much more good in it than bad. All you have to do is look hard enough, and what might seem to be a series of unfortunate events, may in fact be the first steps of a journey." Violet Baudelaire.
SecondCor521 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2019, 08:38 PM   #8
Full time employment: Posting here.
FlaGator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: The 850
Posts: 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodi View Post
Good idea. It's close to the cliff - so I can fine tune the IRA contribution to keep us a safe amount below.

I've already told him I'll match him 100% on an IRA contribution... so he will have some encouragement to save. We just haven't set it up.
Another thought on your situation....

Put the matching IRA money in a Roth. You don't need a tIRA to bring down ACA MAGI, and he'll get a refund on all 100% of his withholding anyway, so it can go somewhere with long term tax advantage.

FWIW-I have an 18 and 15 year old who are both working and and need to manage income events for ACA
__________________
Stay at home slacker dad 2015-August 2024. With the last kid gone, now actually retired
FlaGator is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2019, 08:57 PM   #9
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
SecondCor521's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Boise
Posts: 7,863
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlaGator View Post
Another thought on your situation....

Put the matching IRA money in a Roth. You don't need a tIRA to bring down ACA MAGI, and he'll get a refund on all 100% of his withholding anyway, so it can go somewhere with long term tax advantage.

FWIW-I have an 18 and 15 year old who are both working and and need to manage income events for ACA
This would work as long as the OP's son's AGI is below the filing limit ($12,400 this year I think).

If OP's son has AGI of $12,401 (or more), then they are required to file a return for a reason other than just to get a refund of taxes withheld. They therefore would not meet the exception in the Form 8962 instructions. Their income then would be included in household income for ACA MAGI of the parents.

That's my understanding anyway. Maybe that's what you meant too, but it wasn't clear from your post.

What the OP could do, I think, is for the son to make a tIRA contribution to get AGI down to $11,999 (or some margin below to be safe), then contribute anything further to a Roth.
__________________
"At times the world can seem an unfriendly and sinister place, but believe us when we say there is much more good in it than bad. All you have to do is look hard enough, and what might seem to be a series of unfortunate events, may in fact be the first steps of a journey." Violet Baudelaire.
SecondCor521 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2019, 12:07 AM   #10
Full time employment: Posting here.
FlaGator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: The 850
Posts: 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlaGator View Post
Another thought on your situation....

Put the matching IRA money in a Roth. You don't need a tIRA to bring down ACA MAGI, and he'll get a refund on all 100% of his withholding anyway, so it can go somewhere with long term tax advantage.

FWIW-I have an 18 and 15 year old who are both working and and need to manage income events for ACA
Quote:
Originally Posted by SecondCor521 View Post
This would work as long as the OP's son's AGI is below the filing limit ($12,400 this year I think).

If OP's son has AGI of $12,401 (or more), then they are required to file a return for a reason other than just to get a refund of taxes withheld. They therefore would not meet the exception in the Form 8962 instructions. Their income then would be included in household income for ACA MAGI of the parents.

That's my understanding anyway. Maybe that's what you meant too, but it wasn't clear from your post.

What the OP could do, I think, is for the son to make a tIRA contribution to get AGI down to $11,999 (or some margin below to be safe), then contribute anything further to a Roth.
You are correct, sorry that I wasn't clear.

I assumed that a 16 year old student wouldn't get over the threshold while on some else's payroll.

Good to have the IRA option of deductible, Roth, or both in this situation.
__________________
Stay at home slacker dad 2015-August 2024. With the last kid gone, now actually retired
FlaGator is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2019, 05:32 AM   #11
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
pb4uski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sarasota, FL & Vermont
Posts: 36,204
Quote:
Originally Posted by SecondCor521 View Post
.... What the OP could do, I think, is for the son to make a tIRA contribution to get AGI down to $11,999 (or some margin below to be safe), then contribute anything further to a Roth.
+1 and the nice thing is that they have to the filing deadline to make deductible contributions so they will know the amounts on their return when they make that calculation.
__________________
If something cannot endure laughter.... it cannot endure.
Patience is the art of concealing your impatience.
Slow and steady wins the race.

Retired Jan 2012 at age 56
pb4uski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2019, 08:56 AM   #12
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 859
The filing requirement says nothing about adjusted gross income. The filing requirement is based on "earned in-come, unearned income, and gross income," so tIRA contributions appear to have no effect on the dependent's filing requirement.
SevenUp is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2019, 12:10 PM   #13
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
pb4uski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sarasota, FL & Vermont
Posts: 36,204
^^^ Correct, it doesn't impact the need to file but I didn't say that it did. If the dependent's income is required to be included in ACA household income then tIRA contributions reduce the dependent's MAGI that ACA subsidies are based on and that could e really important if the OP ends up being over the cliff once the dependent's income is included.

However, while the OP didn't indicate how much the dependent earned, hopefully it is below the filing requirement so it doesn't neet to be included at all.
__________________
If something cannot endure laughter.... it cannot endure.
Patience is the art of concealing your impatience.
Slow and steady wins the race.

Retired Jan 2012 at age 56
pb4uski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2019, 02:39 PM   #14
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Tinton Falls
Posts: 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by SecondCor521 View Post
You've gotten good and accurate advice and information so far, so I won't repeat it except to say I'm in a similar situation with my 16DS and came to the same conclusions.

I'll bring up another idea for consideration. Depending on how much of a go-getter he is, and if/when he starts college, you may consider trying to get him to be an independent from an IRS point of view as early as possible. If he is not your dependent, then he won't be included in your "ACA tax family" and thus his income won't affect your ACA subsidy. There are lots of other things to think about strategy-wise as to whether it's good or not to have him be a dependent, so you'd need to look at it holistically.

Also, regardless of whether or not he is an IRS independent, he probably won't be a FAFSA independent for college financial aid purposes. If you think you'll get aid, be aware that 50% of his earnings (and a chunk of his non-IRA savings) will be "taxed" in the form of a lower EFC. FAFSA is based on prior-prior years, so it would be the calendar year of his junior year spring / senior year fall that would affect his freshman aid. It may make sense for him to make very large IRA contributions.

The first $6700 (approximation) of dependent student income is shielded off from impacting EFC. After the threshold is crossed, the 50% of earnings 'penalty' kicks in. Getting a traditional IRA does the job to protect the next $6K of income from reducing aid.
retiredunder50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2019, 05:16 PM   #15
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
SecondCor521's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Boise
Posts: 7,863
Quote:
Originally Posted by retiredunder50 View Post
The first $6700 (approximation) of dependent student income is shielded off from impacting EFC. After the threshold is crossed, the 50% of earnings 'penalty' kicks in. Getting a traditional IRA does the job to protect the next $6K of income from reducing aid.
You're correct. I haven't had to deal with that part of the aid calculation myself very much.
__________________
"At times the world can seem an unfriendly and sinister place, but believe us when we say there is much more good in it than bad. All you have to do is look hard enough, and what might seem to be a series of unfortunate events, may in fact be the first steps of a journey." Violet Baudelaire.
SecondCor521 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Simple and probably dumb question... DawgMan Forum Admin 5 09-14-2016 12:54 PM
Probably a stupid question but... bulbar Hi, I am... 9 01-15-2015 09:38 AM
Probably a Dumb Question On Social Security Dwhit FIRE and Money 8 05-08-2013 09:30 PM
I feel STUPID! Really STUPID! :( NW Landlady Hi, I am... 21 07-10-2010 10:47 AM
Stupid Question probably... winnw FIRECalc support 7 07-14-2007 01:27 AM

» Quick Links

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:26 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.