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Re: Protecting Your Nest Egg from the Vultures?
Old 08-03-2005, 11:32 AM   #21
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Re: Protecting Your Nest Egg from the Vultures?

"they" being what? the black helicopters?
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Re: Protecting Your Nest Egg from the Vultures?
Old 08-03-2005, 11:37 AM   #22
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Re: Protecting Your Nest Egg from the Vultures?

Quote:
Originally Posted by farmerEd
"they" being what? the black helicopters?
Ssssshhhhhh.... We don't talk about "they/them" on this board.

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Re: Protecting Your Nest Egg from the Vultures?
Old 08-03-2005, 11:47 AM   #23
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Re: Protecting Your Nest Egg from the Vultures?

Well I admit I was "they." (Al should have fun with that sentence)

I never looked in anyones back yard.

I have gone through people's houses though. Once I was hired to collect money from a former stock broker who had stolen from his clients. He was in jail and my job was to find out what he had and take and sell all of it.

I went through his house and he had a number of books, pamphets and other writings around about how and where to hide assets from creditors, and a lot stuff about moving overseas to countries with no extradition treaties. Poor boy, he didn't escape the country fast enough. Sold everything. Even the books on hiding money in off shore trusts.

He is now out of jail and on occasion I see him walking around downtown. He pretends not to know me.
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Re: Protecting Your Nest Egg from the Vultures?
Old 08-03-2005, 12:01 PM   #24
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Re: Protecting Your Nest Egg from the Vultures?

Physical cash on hand is very difficult to sieze by a Judgement creditor. *As a lawyer who has attempted to collect judgments, it is nearly impossible to get assets that are "out of the system' of bank accounts, land title, and similar traceable property. *

Cash in a briefcase sometimes trumps any sophisticated offshore trust when it comes down to what actaully survives a vigorous collection effort. *The odds are on the side of a determined debtor who ignores court orders, collection pros' and writs of garnishment. *Most of the uncollected judgements I have faced are situations where the losing debtor just takes the cash money and leaves their rented flat and there is little one can do to stop them despite all the court orders and legal process.

You can hire all the PI's you want, but all you typically get are photos of the deadbeat and a new address, but never his briefcase of cash.
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Re: Protecting Your Nest Egg from the Vultures?
Old 08-03-2005, 12:16 PM   #25
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Re: Protecting Your Nest Egg from the Vultures?

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Originally Posted by davew894
If you're in ER, and you've got a million or so in the bank and living on a meager $40k dividends and interest, your nest egg is vulnerable, regardless of whether you are on the straight and narrow or not.
Dave, it's clear that you know who "they" are...or is it is? Guess it depends upon what the definition of "is" is.

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Re: Protecting Your Nest Egg from the Vultures?
Old 08-03-2005, 01:22 PM   #26
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Re: Protecting Your Nest Egg from the Vultures?

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Originally Posted by davew894
The people with plans sold nationwide by large well known legal and accounting firms thought the same thing and many are now broke because years later the IRS determined they owed more than they paid. My point was, frequently there is no way to escape the IRS, even if you do pay what you legally owe.
I don't have a lot of sympathy for the abusive tax shelter buyers. They violate the don't be piggy rule. Sometimes people are too clever for their own good.

I do think the lawyers that wrote canned opinions regarding iffy tax shelters should be disciplined.

From the IRS site discussing various types of abusive tax shelters: http://www.irs.gov/compliance/enforc...105822,00.html

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Re: Protecting Your Nest Egg from the Vultures?
Old 08-03-2005, 09:48 PM   #27
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Re: Protecting Your Nest Egg from the Vultures?

I am very sorry for the loss of your child also.

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Re: Protecting Your Nest Egg from the Vultures?
Old 08-04-2005, 03:39 PM   #28
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Re: Protecting Your Nest Egg from the Vultures?

Suppose you invest your money in another country like Germany, France or Canada. Doesn't that put it out of reach of US based predators? US corporations operating internationally do this all the time, why not small investors?
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Re: Protecting Your Nest Egg from the Vultures?
Old 08-05-2005, 12:28 PM   #29
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Re: Protecting Your Nest Egg from the Vultures?

>>It's all part of being associated with a 'free' country.

No kidding, the USA is one of the few countries that feel they *own* you no matter where you live. Friend of mine moved to Europe 20 years ago, married a german, has a house, business and kids in germany...comes back to visit once in a while as a tourist....and yet he STILL needs to file a 1040 every year. Land of the free?
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Re: Protecting Your Nest Egg from the Vultures?
Old 08-05-2005, 02:52 PM   #30
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Re: Protecting Your Nest Egg from the Vultures?

Having earned my early retirement, I'm at the stage where I want to enjoy life. I want to spend a few years in southern France, Italy and the Greek islands. I want to return home to Canada where my friends are, and where healthcare is better.* That means having the freedom to take my person and my money anywhere I please.

I'm NOT talking about tax evasion. I've always paid my taxes, and as a Canadian citizen I'm willing to file tax returns in both countries and receive appropriate credits under the existing tax treaties.

The original post was about predators. I'm talking about car accidents, and other predatory litigation. I grew up in Canada and have lived in Western Europe for 10+ years, so I'm well aware that the US is a Corporate Police State, and that freedoms and privacy taken for granted in more advanced countries does not exist here. Most of us understand that the US Congress is for sale to corporations and other special interests, and therefore does not protect its citizens against abuse.

I truly believe that under the rule of law, plaintiffs should be able to collect damages on rightful claims, but that would be impossible if people could easily put their assets out of reach. However, if it is MY money, I must be free to take it anywhere I want without being penalized. If I am free, I want the option to live and invest in any country of my choice without being persecuted by the US government or other domestic parasites.

I suppose one could renounce US citizenship, remove all assets and never come back again, but I know that there are "laws" against that too. There's a lot of info on the web on offshore trusts, but it all seems to be for those seeking to escape taxes, court judgements, pending divorce, etc. Even my lawyer doesn't want to touch estate planning that includes foreign assets!* What does that tell you?

I've moved internationally several times, and I had no problem taking my money with me legally. But my assets are more substantial now, I own a house by the beach and IRAs that cannot be liquidated without serious tax consequences, thus I am a very good target for predatory litigation, not to mention paternity suits . I've been planning to diversify away from dollar-denominated assets. Any ideas on how a law-abiding citizen can do that?
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Re: Protecting Your Nest Egg from the Vultures?
Old 08-05-2005, 03:04 PM   #31
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Re: Protecting Your Nest Egg from the Vultures?

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Originally Posted by Free_at_49
... and that freedoms and privacy taken for granted in more advanced countries does not exist here.
Any specific examples? I'm not planning on moving anytime soon, but I'm curious.
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Re: Protecting Your Nest Egg from the Vultures?
Old 08-05-2005, 04:07 PM   #32
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Re: Protecting Your Nest Egg from the Vultures?

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Originally Posted by Nords
Any specific examples?* I'm not planning on moving anytime soon, but I'm curious.
Examples too many to mention here. Here's one of the top:

In Canada and in EU countries, your Social Security Number is used only for communicating with the government on matters of taxation and old age pensions. It is illegal for anyone to ask for, or to use your SS# for any other purpose.

In America, SS numbers are used for just about everything. Your tax records, healthcare records, credit info, spending habits, etc., everything is in databases under your SS#. It is public information and it is for sale to anyone. Privacy is non-existent, because Congress allows it.

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Re: Protecting Your Nest Egg from the Vultures?
Old 08-05-2005, 11:32 PM   #33
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Re: Protecting Your Nest Egg from the Vultures?

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Originally Posted by davew894
My understanding of law has always been that unless something is prohibited, it is allowed. If it is not prohibited to send money to an offshore trust to save on taxes then people shouldn't be fined or imprisioned for doing such. If offshore trusts are such a problem, then Congress needs to make laws prohibiting that specific activity.
The Internal Revenue Code makes all income subject to tax, unless it is excluded somewhere in the Code.

Section 61 of the Internal Revenue Code states in part that "Except as otherwise provided in this subtitle, gross income means all income from whatever source derived...".

This means income from offshore trusts, unless it is excluded from taxation, are subject to taxation.
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Re: Protecting Your Nest Egg from the Vultures?
Old 08-06-2005, 08:16 AM   #34
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Re: Protecting Your Nest Egg from the Vultures?

Quote:
Originally Posted by davew894
Martha,
Being a 'piggy' shouldn't really enter into the equation.

My understanding of law has always been that unless something is prohibited, it is allowed. If it is not prohibited to send money to an offshore trust to save on taxes then people shouldn't be fined or imprisioned for doing such. If offshore trusts are such a problem, then Congress needs to make laws prohibiting that specific activity.

Justin hit the nail on the head--the rule is just the opposite, you pay tax on the income unless exempt from tax under the IRC. Certainly some tax avoidance is specifically allowed. Depreciation, 401(k) contributions, etc. Designing overly clever schemes for the purpose of avoiding tax is putting yourself at risk of a claim.
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Re: Protecting Your Nest Egg from the Vultures?
Old 08-06-2005, 04:08 PM   #35
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Re: Protecting Your Nest Egg from the Vultures?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martha
Justin hit the nail on the head--the rule is just the opposite, you pay tax on the income unless exempt from tax under the IRC. Certainly some tax avoidance is specifically allowed. Depreciation, 401(k) contributions, etc. Designing overly clever schemes for the purpose of avoiding tax is putting yourself at risk of a claim.
I think from a risk-reward perspective, taking aggressive but defensible tax positions can have a positive outcome. If I recall correctly, the penalty for negligent underpayment of taxes is the tax you owe for underpayment, plus 20% of the underpayment as a penalty, plus interest. If you assume a 2-3% chance of getting audited and a potential risk of paying 30-40% of your underpayment as a penalty, you will come out ahead most of the time. Additionally, you may win your negotations with the IRS without going to trial and incurring lots of expenses. Otherwise, just pay what you owe plus penalties.

Just don't commit tax fraud. You don't want to ER to jail... You have to have some reasonable basis for your tax position. If, after the fact it is determined you negligently underreported your taxes, you pay up usually.

Food for thought. I don't usually take that many "aggressive positions". Jail scares me
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Re: Protecting Your Nest Egg from the Vultures?
Old 08-06-2005, 05:03 PM   #36
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Re: Protecting Your Nest Egg from the Vultures?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Free_at_49
. . . I am a very good target for predatory litigation, not to mention paternity suits .
Preemptive strike: vasectomy.*
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Re: Protecting Your Nest Egg from the Vultures?
Old 08-08-2005, 10:33 PM   #37
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Re: Protecting Your Nest Egg from the Vultures?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Free_at_49
Examples too many to mention here. Here's one of the top:

In Canada and in EU countries, your Social Security Number is used only for communicating with the government on matters of taxation and old age pensions. It is illegal for anyone to ask for, or to use your SS# for any other purpose.

Although I agree that privacy is better protected in Canada than the US, I think you are wrong about "Social Security Number" (I assume you mean social insurance number)

It seems to be required by phone, electric, and oil companies to set up any sort of account.

I was aware that US citizens are required to file US tax returns even when living in Canada, and tha the US is one of a very few countries to expect this. I was not, however, aware that the IRS required so much information about accounts in other countries.

I wonder if they require it about RRSP accounts.

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Old 11-01-2007, 07:53 PM   #38
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The umbrella policy is a good idea. I have lower liability (state minimum only) on my cars and other toys but I carry an umbrella policy to cover the liability on all of the stuff in one policy. I can have higher limits and it costs less.

Just don't let anyone know you have it or they might try to sue you to get their hands on it.
My insurance carrier required that I increase my auto limits before they'd let me have an umbrella. I'm in Indiana and have Prudential.
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Old 11-01-2007, 09:35 PM   #39
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Any specific examples? I'm not planning on moving anytime soon, but I'm curious.
I'm a Canadian citizen, always lived in Canada but while chasing the filthy $$ required for ER w*rking made occasional business trips to US, now occasional sun-bird trips. While rewriting my will, lawyer asked about assets. I admitted to a 6-digit holding in VTI among others. His advice was to restructure US holdings as after $60K of US holdings in a brokerage account the IRS would consider they have the right to collect estate tax on ALL my holdings worldwide.

How about:
No taxation without representation.
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Old 11-01-2007, 09:45 PM   #40
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Any specific examples? I'm not planning on moving anytime soon, but I'm curious.
There are others that don't invole civil litigation or taxation. While I'm not about to start a thread, I'll contribute if someone gets it going.
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