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Re: Prudential White Paper on Maximizing Soc Sec
Old 05-22-2006, 01:10 PM   #61
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Re: Prudential White Paper on Maximizing Soc Sec

Bunny - Just to clarify, I didn't post the link to the paper, Hogwild did. I wouldn't come to this site and "push" my ideas. I merely commented on them since others were discussing them already. I thought that others could learn about what I had discovered..Chiefly that many do not understand Social Security options, taxes, and the interplay between other types of retirement income and SS.

I don't post often, as I am not an expert in all types of issues affecting ER. (I also do not have the time). I do believe that some of my thoughts made add value..These tend to be on SS and immediate annuities.
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Re: Prudential White Paper on Maximizing Soc Sec
Old 05-22-2006, 01:53 PM   #62
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Re: Prudential White Paper on Maximizing Soc Sec

Quote:
Originally Posted by New Thinking
Bunny - Just to clarify, I didn't post the link to the paper, Hogwild did.**
Right, pretty good response from a first new topic, huh?

Just for the record, I am in no way associated with Prudential or any other financial or insurance firm.* I'm in telecommunications.

I do appreciate all the discussion.* I have learned much, from both the original document I posted the link to and the responses from forum members.* I especially like the idea of the IRA-Roth conversions over the period between ER and full SS.* Thanks to Nords for that.

My personal opinion on immediate annuities is simply that I am glad the option is available.* I don't know that I would ever utilize them, but I am certainly open to doing the analysis to see if they would work in any scenario that I may encounter during my retirement.

On the issue of when to take SS, I am fairly convinced that full retirement age is best - at least for me.* It just works out that way in my calculations.

I sincerely hope that no one will be intimidated into discontinuing contributing to this forum.* I don't believe there is anyone that knows it all and cannot learn something.* We were all low/no posters at one time right?



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Re: Prudential White Paper on Maximizing Soc Sec
Old 05-22-2006, 01:57 PM   #63
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Re: Prudential White Paper on Maximizing Soc Sec

New Thinking-

I remember some of your earlier posts about SS. SS is a very specialized area- the laws are complicated, the issues are involved- what with spousal decisions, and various arcane choices-including "File and Suspend” which I had never even heard of. I did read much of Alicia Munnell’s very impressive work.

I am 65, but several years ago I decided that a US Govt backed annuity with a true uncapped COLA was definitely a gift, so I decided to wait until 70 to start drawing, unless good stocks come to sell at PEs of 7, which seems like a fairly long shot. From my POV, the usual discussion which mostly begins and ends with “take it now, that way you will be sure of getting at least some” fails to address the main financial risk of a self funded retirement-longevity, especially survivor longevity for a couple.

We talk a lot about diversification, and in my mind this is the ultimate diversifier. My SS won't be huge, even at 70, but it would be enough to fund a tight lifestyle. And for sure it will pay my Medicare and Medigap premiums.

So I sincerely hope you will continue to post. Speaking only for myself (who else could I speak for?) it matters not one bit how much you post on other topics, or how much face time you put in. Value is not particularly linked to word count.

I am almost certain that a good understanding of SS will do more for many of us than “knowing” just what % of assets should be in international small cap, vs something else.

The reception given to ideas often has nothing whatsoever to do with the value presented. I like to remember that life is a very long game. Early declarations of what may or may not be helpful to just what % of the people are apt to be wrong. I believe we should give the Fat Lady time to get out there and sing.

Interestingly, in the 80s,when EE bonds gave one the higher of his going-in interest rate, or a transparently calculated floating rate, I tried to convince a lot of people that they were essentially long term high interest fixed rate securities with the upside in rates open, but the downside closed. I bought all I could, but it was a hard sell to family and friends.


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Re: Prudential White Paper on Maximizing Soc Sec
Old 05-22-2006, 05:07 PM   #64
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Re: Prudential White Paper on Maximizing Soc Sec

Ha -

I didnt say posting volume was the key, I said being a member of the community was. A lot of people post here once or twice a month. About stuff they arent selling.

I'd also like to back up a bit because I think we got a little carried away with ourselves on the "different thinking" being slapped back.

I read the posts made by myself, Nords and REWahoo on this and the other annuities thread. I didnt see any direct personal attacks, I didnt see anyone say that the idea of annuities was patently bad, that anyone was full of crap, or that the ideas and posts were unwelcome.

I saw posts and links to articles that gave a complete outline of the equation, quotes and posts from prior discussions that covered a broad swath of the issues, acknowledgements of the value and application of annuities and when to take social security, and cautions about the problems.

From other posters? "You're an egotistical, hypocritical liar that just doesnt like xyz".

That certainly encourages further constructive dialog.

Please quote me the post that indicated that "new ideas" arent accepted or allowed or are even unappreciated/discouraged, and where the first personal attack was filed.

Filling in the blanks, pointing out the caveats and pitfalls, identifying thin proofs or dataless conclusions and pressing someone to produce some sort of backup on their opinions and 'facts' does not equal suppression of ideas.
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Re: Prudential White Paper on Maximizing Soc Sec
Old 05-22-2006, 05:42 PM   #65
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Re: Prudential White Paper on Maximizing Soc Sec

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
I didnt say posting volume was the key, I said being a member of the community was. A lot of people post here once or twice a month. About stuff they arent selling.
To be fair, I think New Thinking has behaved himself just fine with respect to his work and this board. Not everyone reads all the posts. I certainly don't. And we all have our areas of personal expertise and personal interest (which may or may not overlap). If a poster has narrow interests in the board and behaves unspammily (you can look that word up...or not) that's fine. I've gone over the thread more than once with my spam detector and it looks clean to me. He may not be one of the more regular "community members" but he's no noob.

I have a predisposition for distrust of annuities and financial product sales people, so like I say I went over this more than once, but it's clean and even fully disclosed, and you're still throwing a few backhands in there. If you really want to slap around a financial prognosticator I know this great place and a great target, Mr. Town Sheriff.
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Re: Prudential White Paper on Maximizing Soc Sec
Old 05-22-2006, 05:57 PM   #66
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Re: Prudential White Paper on Maximizing Soc Sec

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMoneyJim
To be fair, I think New Thinking has behaved himself just fine with respect to his work and this board.... He may not be one of the more regular "community members" but he's no noob.
Is this the day to "read into" what I say?

What I said was:
"When its someone who only pops up when the topic of conversation is something they sell, without telling the whole story, playing to fears, or simply spamming a product or service...I'm compelled to fill in the blanks and try to offset the fear"

I did not attribute any of this to anyone in particular, it was a general comment.

Directly to the poster in question, I said I thought their paper was a little one-sided (a sales pitch one sided? You dont say!), suggested that anyone interested read a more balanced piece of information instead or in addition, and pointed one out.

And that I appreciate and more readily accept input from someone who is a regular forum member with more than one note to play.

Quote:
and you're still throwing a few backhands in there.
Please quote the "backhand" I gave to New Thinking.

By the way, I have no aversion to annuities although I can live without financial sales people I've looked at annuities often. I took a good long look when I had the half million from my mcmansion sale, was single with no heirs and had 30-40+ years of ER ahead of me.

It boiled down to this: For an appropriate annuity product they would give me 25-35% less than I could make on the money myself in a very low volatility low cost income mutual fund and at the end of my life I'd have nothing to give to a family member, friend or charity. But I could count on a check every month.

It wasnt for me. Not because of slimey sales people, one sided papers or stories, half the data, or any other reason other than it didnt make any financial sense to me at all. I decided that if I couldnt take the massive volatility : of a frickin income fund that I should get a job and get back to work.

But I did say at least a handful of times in the last week during these discussions that I could see that they could be useful to some people in some circumstances.

I guess in short hindsight, its a good idea I decided to keep self managing my money. Got married 2.5 years later and I have a kid now. Wouldnt it be swell if I had bought an annuity with no survivorship...
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Re: Prudential White Paper on Maximizing Soc Sec
Old 05-22-2006, 08:03 PM   #67
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Re: Prudential White Paper on Maximizing Soc Sec

I'm with ya 100% on annuities, CFB. I don't see that I'll ever need 'em, but I listen in periodically to double-check. And I think they're a bad deal in general for what people want them for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
And that I appreciate and more readily accept input from someone who is a regular forum member with more than one note to play.

Please quote the "backhand" I gave to New Thinking.
Since you asked: For example, the sentence before your question, and:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
I didnt say posting volume was the key, I said being a member of the community was. A lot of people post here once or twice a month. About stuff they arent selling.
Am I reading into those by thinking you mean that New Thinking is not a community member? It sounded to me like a veiled accusation that he's here to sell. I have counterpoints to those assertions if they are indeed assertions, but this thread probably isn't the place for them.

That said, I managed to give him a backhand or two myself in my first post in this thread; my intention for that post would've come through much better if I left out all the sentences but this one:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMoneyJim
If I were to redesign this conversation I wouldn't make it as combative, but I think it's a good discussion.
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Re: Prudential White Paper on Maximizing Soc Sec
Old 05-23-2006, 05:32 AM   #68
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Re: Prudential White Paper on Maximizing Soc Sec

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny

If you re-read almost any thread, I'm quite rarely the first person to be hostile.* Very rarely.
What a coincidence that these nasty threads seem to follow you around like flies follow a garbage truck
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Re: Prudential White Paper on Maximizing Soc Sec
Old 05-23-2006, 09:57 AM   #69
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Re: Prudential White Paper on Maximizing Soc Sec

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
If ego's upset you, I have to again apologize for your shortcoming and my unintentional antagonization of it. How many people do you know used to bring in $3B a year in business, got paid millions and retired at 39 who dont have at least a little bit of an ego?
Quite frankly, I find this absolutely classic. Translation = I apologize that you are such a bozo. Is it my fault I'm so damn good?

Really, CFB, since you obviously are fairly smart guy, maybe you can step back for a second and see what this kind of statement does to the emotional level of a discussion.

For the record, I get a lot out of your posts (as well as a lot of others) and am not interesting in starting a flame war. I offer this in the way of feedback. However, I'm suiting up anyway, just in case....
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Re: Prudential White Paper on Maximizing Soc Sec
Old 05-23-2006, 11:27 AM   #70
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Re: Prudential White Paper on Maximizing Soc Sec



Why do I keep thinking about this video?
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Re: Prudential White Paper on Maximizing Soc Sec
Old 05-23-2006, 12:09 PM   #71
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Re: Prudential White Paper on Maximizing Soc Sec

If I were to redesign this conversation I wouldn't make it as combative, but I think it was a good discussion.
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Re: Prudential White Paper on Maximizing Soc Sec
Old 05-23-2006, 12:17 PM   #72
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Re: Prudential White Paper on Maximizing Soc Sec

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Re: Prudential White Paper on Maximizing Soc Sec
Old 05-23-2006, 04:29 PM   #73
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Re: Prudential White Paper on Maximizing Soc Sec

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMoneyJim
I'm with ya 100% on annuities, CFB. I don't see that I'll ever need 'em, but I listen in periodically to double-check. And I think they're a bad deal in general for what people want them for.

Since you asked: For example, the sentence before your question, and:

Am I reading into those by thinking you mean that New Thinking is not a community member? It sounded to me like a veiled accusation that he's here to sell. I have counterpoints to those assertions if they are indeed assertions, but this thread probably isn't the place for them.

That said, I managed to give him a backhand or two myself in my first post in this thread; my intention for that post would've come through much better if I left out all the sentences but this one:
Jim -

My problem with this thread is lack of context in reading my comments. That remark was in response to HaHa's "new ideas around here are not well accepted" comment. Ha has (perhaps legitimately) commented on this before. My remarks you quoted (in the context of this thread) were simply to note that perhaps a salesmans input would be better accepted if they participated in threads other than the ones involving the products they sell. In keeping with Nords' relatively anti financial salesperson comments earlier in the thread.

If you'll re-read "new thinking"s posts and my replies to him, I think I was pretty nice to him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff2006
What a coincidence that these nasty threads seem to follow you around like flies follow a garbage truck
Just like its a coincidence that "people" like you with sub 5 post counts that only show up in annuity related threads seem to have so much to say. So are you the annuity sales person in "disguise", a friend, a co-worker, or just a random troll?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bosco
Quite frankly, I find this absolutely classic. Translation = I apologize that you are such a bozo. Is it my fault I'm so damn good?

Really, CFB, since you obviously are fairly smart guy, maybe you can step back for a second and see what this kind of statement does to the emotional level of a discussion.
Did you read what I was responding to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw_fire
It is you that appears not to want to give fair consideration to both sides

when someone stands up to you, you lie

you just make up "facts" to suit your mood

you have an ego problem or something that makes everyone who has a different idea from you wrong because you always have to be right?

you must have misunderstood them or your ego got in the way again.
I think my response was pretty darn polite considering that I didnt have one bad word to say about this poster, just some constructive criticism of his/her ideas, before I received this "healthy" outburst.
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Re: Prudential White Paper on Maximizing Soc Sec
Old 05-23-2006, 06:11 PM   #74
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Re: Prudential White Paper on Maximizing Soc Sec

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny

Just like its a coincidence that "people" like you with sub 5 post counts that only show up in annuity related threads seem to have so much to say.* So are you the annuity sales person in "disguise", a friend, a co-worker, or just a random troll?
I have nothing to do with the financial services industry, couldn't care less one way or the other about annuities, and don't know the author of the Prudential paper.

Here is the point: You are a rude guy who needs to clean up his act. I have no knowledge of your background. But a lot of the characteristics you show on this board suggest that you lack both a good education and, especially, a good upbringing.

This will be my last post directed to you, for the time being.

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Re: Prudential White Paper on Maximizing Soc Sec
Old 05-23-2006, 06:13 PM   #75
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Re: Prudential White Paper on Maximizing Soc Sec

Oh Boy! this should be good.
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Re: Prudential White Paper on Maximizing Soc Sec
Old 05-23-2006, 07:19 PM   #76
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Re: Prudential White Paper on Maximizing Soc Sec

still waiting ...
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Re: Prudential White Paper on Maximizing Soc Sec
Old 05-23-2006, 07:53 PM   #77
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Re: Prudential White Paper on Maximizing Soc Sec

Jeff, you are a new forum member with a total of three posts. You have not introduced yourself nor have you discussed subjects even remotely related to FIRE. Instead, you have apparently decided to "take on" another forum member.

I'm unsure of your motivation, and more than a little suspicious of why you feel obligated to wade into this discussion in the manner you have chosen.

On a more positive note...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff2006
This will be my last post directed to you, for the time being.
This is an excellent idea, and as a moderator I hope you follow through as promised.
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Re: Prudential White Paper on Maximizing Soc Sec
Old 05-23-2006, 09:38 PM   #78
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Re: Prudential White Paper on Maximizing Soc Sec

you jump too quickly, perhaps, on Jeff; though he doesn't appear very tolerant.
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Re: Prudential White Paper on Maximizing Soc Sec
Old 05-23-2006, 09:55 PM   #79
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Re: Prudential White Paper on Maximizing Soc Sec

Quote:
Originally Posted by d
you jump too quickly, perhaps, on Jeff;* though he doesn't appear very tolerant.*
Let's just say that we recognize the trend.

Be careful how you criticize the moderators-- how do you think we joined their club?
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Re: Prudential White Paper on Maximizing Soc Sec
Old 05-23-2006, 10:30 PM   #80
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Re: Prudential White Paper on Maximizing Soc Sec

Quote:
Originally Posted by d
looks like a rather hot subject ... not sure I want to get involved, but unless my calculations are off, it seems the annuities in the illustrations have an internal rate of return of about 4%.* In the examples given with delayed SS, would not the subjects be better to use their IRAs (invested at an assumed 5.75% net of expenses) to provide the equivalent of the annuity income?
d, is a response to this question what you are "still waiting" for?* If so I'll attempt an answerbased on my calculations of the example.* What I get for an IRR for the annuity is 5.28% instead of the 4% you get. So if the investment that produces a 5.75% net of expenses is as "guaranteed" as the annuity and you can W/D P&I without penalty to get the cashflow then that would appear to be the better choice by just under 1/2%.*
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