PSA: Home Energy Costs? Where does the money go...

[travelover]

Another problem with electric hot water heaters is that if you need to run off a generator for a few days due to a power outage, you will find that it takes a huge honking generator to run an electric water heater.

 

[NW-Bound]

Well, because my wife is not Ivana Trump, if we ever have an emergency to run a generator for electricity, she would not complain about not having hot water.

But she does need hot water in the motorhome to take a shower. I don't blame her. I want hot shower too.

 

[Katsmeow]

Well, I have a tankless gas water heater. I also have a gas cooktop. My natural gas monthly bill since we bought this house 8 months ago has never been more than $14 a month. We do have gas heat so I expect that to go up a bit as it gets colder.

On the other hand electricity bills have been in the $300 to $400 a month range every month. Actually the first month when there was little AC use was about $250 so I think a good bit of that cost is AC -- I guess I'll see over the next couple of months as AC use phases out until spring

 

[travelover]

Well, because my wife is not Ivana Trump, if we ever have an emergency to run a generator for electricity, she would not complain about not having hot water.

But she does need hot water in the motorhome to take a shower. I don't blame her. I want hot shower too.

I think there is a way to temporarily disable one of the heating elements in an electric water heater so you can heat the water, but more slowly, with a normal sized emergency generator.

 

[NW-Bound]

No, we would just boil some water in a kettle with our gas burner in the backyard, then take a sponge bath. Back to basic.

But thank goodness, we have never had a long electric outage. The last time was perhaps 15 years ago due to some utility equipment failure, and it lasted only a couple of hours.

 

[Mulligan]

Another problem with electric hot water heaters is that if you need to run off a generator for a few days due to a power outage, you will find that it takes a huge honking generator to run an electric water heater.

I discovered one advantage to having a natural gas water heater and fireplace that didn't enter my mind when home was built. Electric has went down twice for more than a day the past few years in the winter. I was always able to have a nice hot shower and warm living room despite no electricity.

 

[Tyro]

Not sure what you're getting at, just Google and find all you want (and mouse over the OP charts if you want them specifically), but here you go... it took me 30 seconds to find them again.

Thank you. Mousing over the charts only yielded the URL of the post (e.g. http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f28/psa-home-energy-costs-where-does-the-money-go-63483.html ) - not the source. I tried googling as well, but apparently guessed at the wrong search criteria.

 

[NW-Bound]

Nat gas is not available for me, else I would want it. Nat gas is so cheap now, it's insane. Cooking with gas is also the way to go. Professional chefs don't mess around with anything else.

 

[Tyro]

I really question the blanket.

After doing it twice, and comparing the actual bills, (even with new well-insulated tanks that felt room temp on the outsides) I don't. I wouldn't bother in a situation where lost heat went into heated living space, but in areas with real winters where the HW tank is in unheated basements, crawlspaces, or garages, IME it doesn't make sense not to. Cost of a jacket is usually ~$20 - $30, and takes less than an hour to install.

 

[NW-Bound]

Recently, with the price of nat gas in free fall, I converted the energy cost of nat gas from $/BTU to $/KWhr. It was something like 2c/KWhr. I don't know the net conversion efficiency from the utility boiler to the end residential user, but that price looks awfully good.

 

[lrak]

After doing it twice, and comparing the actual bills, (even with new well-insulated tanks that felt room temp on the outsides) I don't. I wouldn't bother in a situation where lost heat went into heated living space, but in areas with real winters where the HW tank is in unheated basements, crawlspaces, or garages, IME it doesn't make sense not to. Cost of a jacket is usually ~$20 - $30, and takes less than an hour to install.

You can usually buy a well insulated hot water heater that are better than the standard hot water heaters + blanket for that same $20-30 difference. In my case it was the same hot water heater guts as the model my nearest Lowes had but was an extra 3" in diameter. The difference was 2.5" of foam insulation instead of 1" of foam insulation in the jacket.

 

[MBAustin]

Are they the same size or different sizes? Note that you can definitely run the one for the bathrooms at 120 F. At one time we tried an on demand electric hot water heater, but later I did some calculations and realized one would need a 1000 amp service to make it work correctly.

They are both 50 gallons - identical units installed by the previous homeowner in 2004. I'm pretty sure the temp is already at 120 F as the thermostat is behind a screwed-down panel with a warning note next to it that setting it higher could cause burns.

We don't have gas service in the neighborhood so on-demand probably isn't a good option based on your experience.

 

[meierlde]

Another problem with electric hot water heaters is that if you need to run off a generator for a few days due to a power outage, you will find that it takes a huge honking generator to run an electric water heater.

In that situtation the sponge bath and boiling water on the stove/microwave make a lot of sense, in essence you assume you are sort of camping out.

 

[meierlde]

Recently, with the price of nat gas in free fall, I converted the energy cost of nat gas from $/BTU to $/KWhr. It was something like 2c/KWhr. I don't know the net conversion efficiency from the utility boiler to the end residential user, but that price looks awfully good.

The best modern power plants run at 60% fuel to electricity conversion. Add it about 10% for losses in the grid between the power plant and your house. So we start out at 3.3 cents at the power plant and make it about 3.6 to get to the local distribution network. Local distribution in Texas costs about 1.6 cents per kwh in addition. Thus a raw cost of about 5.2 cents per kwh not counting reliability costs etc.

 

[Nords]

Another problem with electric hot water heaters is that if you need to run off a generator for a few days due to a power outage, you will find that it takes a huge honking generator to run an electric water heater.

I think if you're using a generator then the lack of hot water is the least of your problems...

 

[Grainiac]

I think if you're using a generator then the lack of hot water is the least of your problems...

+1

In my case, getting water at all would be my primary concern. I pump my potable water from a private well from the depth of 400 feet. Takes a pretty large generator just dedicated to the well pump to get it going. Cold shower is still much better than no water at all.

 

[Walt34]

When we were house-hunting the availability of natural gas was a major item since it's so much cheaper than electric to heat with. Even the clothes dryer is gas, it costs ~$50 more to buy but it doesn't take long to get that back in operational savings.

 

[travelover]

+1

In my case, getting water at all would be my primary concern. I pump my potable water from a private well from the depth of 400 feet. Takes a pretty large generator just dedicated to the well pump to get it going. Cold shower is still much better than no water at all.

Right. Many people don't realize how much potential power is available from the power line nor how much energy individual devices actually require. They think that they can go to Costco and get a generator and an extension cord to power the whole house. Thus my comment about the electric water heater, as a 'frinstance.

 

[Lazarus]

Right. Many people don't realize how much potential power is available from the power line nor how much energy individual devices actually require. They think that they can go to Costco and get a generator and an extension cord to power the whole house. Thus my comment about the electric water heater, as a 'frinstance.

They also don't understand about motor start current. Buy a generator then wonder why it can't run something even though it would appear to be able to from the wattage.

Had a friend who tried to run an electric frying pan on one of those little 600 watt camping generators.

 

[Finance Dave]

They also don't understand about motor start current. Buy a generator then wonder why it can't run something even though it would appear to be able to from the wattage.

Had a friend who tried to run an electric frying pan on one of those little 600 watt camping generators.

Surprised he just didn't try an arc welder.

 

[imoldernu]

Some thoughts on energy efficiency.

KWH cost. When we bought our current home in 2004, in a different town, we accidentally lucked out... First of all, our town is "unitary", with water, sewer, electricity and waste mgt, all under one roof. The best part was the cost of electricity... 15 years ago, the city bought a hydro electric plant on the Illinois river. Our current KWH rate is $.0675... 25 miles away, in our camp, the electricity is provided by Commonwealth Edison @ $.14 /kwh. We figure that the difference comes to about $800/year, based on our current use. Something to think about for those who may be choosing a new retirement city.

Our natural gas rates are also low, and of course now getting lower... heat, and HWH. A side note here... One of the perks for us with this house, was a gas fireplace. Not very energy efficient, at best, but since it was new for us (only wood before), I went to the local Home Depot and asked how much it would probably cost... per hour... The answer was about $.75 to $.85 per hour... Wow... "We'll have to get one of those electric fireplaces with the fake fire." We didn't even use the gas fireplace the first year... Then, checking up a little further, and figuring BTU's and how high the flame should be to be efficient... We found our the "expert" wasn't so much... Our actual cost is closer to $.15/hr. We now have a cozy fire just about every day when the temperature goes below 50 degrees.

Now, another thought about efficiency that was a surprise to me... Our house is built with vaulted ceilings, ten to 14 feet . My friends, and my kids warned me that it would be impossible to heat, and would cost a fortune. No so... The absence of an attic, means that the insulation between the roof and the ceiling is more efficient (according to some local builders)... Don't know if this is true or not, but our heating/cooling cost is very low.

On generators... we bought a small generator 3500W when we bought the house... I thought it would be a simple project to set up a switch over to the house circuit... Hah!.... forgetaboutit!... It's still in the original carton... Those who paid for a switchover panel, know what I'm talking about...

How much do you pay per KWH?

 

[meierlde]

Today in the Texas Hill Country it is about .091 per kwh. At that rate solar has a 30 year payout since there is no state subsidy, so it is not economic.

 

[NW-Bound]

I have a demand rate that varies with time of day, and the summer/winter season too. It can be as high as $0.213/KWhr in the summer afternoon to as low as $0.066/KWhr at noon in the winter. As this is in the SW, the above two numbers correspond to the highest and lowest electricity usage times of the year.

Averaging out over the entire year, I paid $0.103/KWhr for the last 12 months.

 

[Bestwifeever]

Chicago western suburb, .046 cents/kwhr for electric starting this fall w/ community pricing, 3 year guaranteed.

 

[travelover]

........ I thought it would be a simple project to set up a switch over to the house circuit... Hah!.... forgetaboutit!... It's still in the original carton... Those who paid for a switchover panel, know what I'm talking about...

I'm not sure what issues you encountered installing a transfer switch, but the Gentran I linked to is easy to install . It has color coded and numbered wire pairs and you just remove the wire off the circuit breaker, then replace with one wire off the Gentran and wire nut the wire you took off the breaker to the second wire of the numbered pair. Repeat for each circuit. Then you plug the generator into the Gentran box or install a plug in outlet outside and run a heavy gauge wire to the Gentran box.