Question on threads about taxes

[MichaelB]

Is it me or are there more posts on taxes along with an angrier tone? I don’t remember this from last year – although the S&P at 800 had everyone’s attention then. Or is this a normal, seasonal thing?

 

[ziggy29]

Well, it *is* almost April 15...

I could be wrong and I'm not inviting political discussion here, but I think the growing anger isn't so much the level of taxation as the feeling that our taxes are being used to subsidize the recklessness and bad decisions of other entities, be they consumers or corporations. They get greedy and screw up, and we pay to make them whole again. Meanwhile, entities which were responsible and didn't point the loaded gun at their own heads get nothing but the increasing tax bill. Most folks are generous with respect to people who genuinely try hard, play by the rules and are temporarily down on their luck, but not so much with entities which were ruined by their own greed and bad decision-making.

And the more we see our taxes going to these things, the more we resent paying taxes. (That's the "royal" we and obviously doesn't apply to everyone.) Add to that the fact that almost everyone knows we have no real choice but to raise taxes to pay down all this debt, and the resentment increases even more.

 

[calmloki]

Don't think there is any more - or less - anger. Bitchin about taxes is part of the human experience. Remember, "What's good for the country is good for General Motors. And vice versa". That's Eisenhower's Treasury secretary from the '50s. Is it any different today? Substitute banks for GM.... I'm with Little Abner - it's our patriotic pleasure to support our nation, and if we're paying more it must mean we're better off. Don't want to be falling behind those E-europeans in the tax race.

Sorry, a little giddy from writing numbers that high.

 

[W2R]

In early April our discussion usually involves some aspect of taxes. We have already hashed out what our favorite software packages may be, in previous years.

This year some see further taxation as inevitable, and paying taxes brings to mind our losses in the market crash of 2008-2009 that have caused retirement delays for many of us and put "a crimp in our style" for many others. Having just been through a crash like this compounds the displeasure that many of us normally experience in sending off much of our gains in taxes.

And thanks in advance for not turning this thread in a political direction. There is no need for that.

 

[Bestwifeever]

My completely unfounded feeling is that there is much more anger this year about paying taxes and where tax dollars are going because of perceptions about the economy and worry about the future, both personal and societal. I have noticed more anger and arguing in other threads too.

My favorite software package is free TurboTax on Vanguard.

 

[ERD50]

Also, taxes get more complex every year, so it makes sense that the grumbling increases every year.

I personally think it an absolute crime that the average employed person (or retired person with average investments) even needs to consider buying a software package, or consider which one is 'best', or consider paying someone to do their taxes.

I could compromise and say that an open-source format spreadsheet should be available for downloads from the Feds and each State, and taxes should be simple enough that a series of entries results in an indisputably correct tax return. The ss would do the adding, subtracting, multiply, divide, and a few simple 'if' conditions, and provide a conveniently neat way to print it and e-file.

There should be no need for 'programs', really.

-ERD50

 

[Texas Proud]

Also, taxes get more complex every year, so it makes sense that the grumbling increases every year.

I personally think it an absolute crime that the average employed person (or retired person with average investments) even needs to consider buying a software package, or consider which one is 'best', or consider paying someone to do their taxes.

I could compromise and say that an open-source format spreadsheet should be available for downloads from the Feds and each State, and taxes should be simple enough that a series of entries results in an indisputably correct tax return. The ss would do the adding, subtracting, multiply, divide, and a few simple 'if' conditions, and provide a conveniently neat way to print it and e-file.

There should be no need for 'programs', really.

-ERD50

Or we can go to the British system where if you make below a certain amount they figure your taxes for you... and tells the company how much to withhold from your check.. easy....

Now, I am not sure if this is true, but I was told this by a good number of people who made below that magic number... me, I was to high...

 

[Zathras]

I also believe, as already alluded to, that last year many people's attention was drawn to the 'Oh my god the stock market is crashing!!' and the economy was looking into the abyss.
This year the market is recovering nicely, and while there are still doom-sayers out there, the economy seems to be clawing (slowly) its way out of the abyss.
So those issues are not quite so overwhelming and more people can return to other things.

 

[MichaelB]

My completely unfounded feeling is that there is much more anger this year about paying taxes and where tax dollars are going because of perceptions about the economy and worry about the future, both personal and societal. I have noticed more anger and arguing in other threads too.

Agree. Lots of uncertainty => anxiety => anger. I guess the anger subsides when the uncertainty goes away.

My favorite software package is free TurboTax on Vanguard.

I used it this year - first in a while. Free makes it nice. UI - I still prefer H&R Block. What makes the difference for me was the auto download of financial accounts info. A sw product that makes paying taxes easier - isn't there something perverse in that?

 

[kyounge1956]

Is it me or are there more posts on taxes along with an angrier tone? I don’t remember this from last year – although the S&P at 800 had everyone’s attention then. Or is this a normal, seasonal thing?

What has struck me the last few days is the number of threads dealing with the possibility the US may add or switch to a VAT. I think there are three or four of them going simultaneously.

 

[ziggy29]

What has struck me the last few days is the number of threads dealing with the possibility the US may add or switch to a VAT. I think there are three or four of them going simultaneously.

Well, Paul Volcker has recently mentioned it as a way to raise revenue, and he's a pretty well-respected heavy hitter in the world of economics. So it's not just by accident that all this VAT talk has started.

 

[harley]

I could be wrong and I'm not inviting political discussion here, but I think the growing anger isn't so much the level of taxation as the feeling that our taxes are being used to subsidize the recklessness and bad decisions of other entities, be they consumers or corporations. They get greedy and screw up, and we pay to make them whole again. Meanwhile, entities which were responsible and didn't point the loaded gun at their own heads get nothing but the increasing tax bill. Most folks are generous with respect to people who genuinely try hard, play by the rules and are temporarily down on their luck, but not so much with entities which were ruined by their own greed and bad decision-making.

And the more we see our taxes going to these things, the more we resent paying taxes. (That's the "royal" we and obviously doesn't apply to everyone.) Add to that the fact that almost everyone knows we have no real choice but to raise taxes to pay down all this debt, and the resentment increases even more.

+1

 

[smjsl]

Also, taxes get more complex every year, so it makes sense that the grumbling increases every year.

I personally think it an absolute crime that the average employed person (or retired person with average investments) even needs to consider buying a software package, or consider which one is 'best', or consider paying someone to do their taxes.

I could compromise and say that an open-source format spreadsheet should be available for downloads from the Feds and each State, and taxes should be simple enough that a series of entries results in an indisputably correct tax return. The ss would do the adding, subtracting, multiply, divide, and a few simple 'if' conditions, and provide a conveniently neat way to print it and e-file.

There should be no need for 'programs', really.

-ERD50

+1. If fact, some number of years ago I created this spreadsheet, and now from year to year I just update it for the new numbers and changes that apply to me... But obviously, I should not be doing that. Like ERD50 said, government should be supplying these if they make the system so complex. Seems like at least they started moving in that direction with online free file fillable forms, but so far it's still in bad shape.

Interestingly, state and local taxes (in my locality) are much less complex and have online system worked out very well. No reason why Fed taxes should not be both simplified and streamlined for average user.

 

[donheff]

To the OP, yes there does seem to be more frustration this year to my ear. I suspect it is because we are all focused on new uses for our taxes (expanded health care) and a looming debt crisis that we know we won't slide by.

 

[MichaelB]

I'll be glad when May comes around. The debt and politics will still be there, but I'm hoping to "tax posting frenzy" will have settled down a bit...

 

[freebird5825]

Is it me or are there more posts on taxes along with an angrier tone? I don’t remember this from last year – although the S&P at 800 had everyone’s attention then. Or is this a normal, seasonal thing?

Well, you can always depend on me to grouse about taxes, 365.25 and 24/7.
I'm surrounded by them on all sides.
The good news is I live out in the country. I could not afford metropolitan taxes in any size city in NY state (not NYC). So I make do.
I want to move, I really do. I just can't afford to until dh2b retires.

In general, I'm detecting a "mad as h*ll" attitude about taxes. And you know what? I agree with that feeling. Sometimes people gotta get this stuff off their chest. No harm done.

 

[ERD50]

I'll be glad when May comes around. The debt and politics will still be there, but I'm hoping to "tax posting frenzy" will have settled down a bit...

I typically skip the threads that don't interest me. Just sayin'.

-ERD50

 

[Alan]

Or we can go to the British system where if you make below a certain amount they figure your taxes for you... and tells the company how much to withhold from your check.. easy....

Now, I am not sure if this is true, but I was told this by a good number of people who made below that magic number... me, I was to high...

This is true, but I'm not sure it is the amount you earn, rather than the complexity of your tax calculations. I rarely filled in a tax return when we lived in the UK and, particularly when we were both working, were high earners. I listen to the podcast of the BBC program "Money Box" every week and this last week it was on taxes and it is obvious that the majority of folks in the UK are still on the PAYE scheme (Pay As You Earn) where you don't file a tax return unless you need or want to.

The UK tax code is very simple for the average wage earner, and taxes are also taken from interest and dividends at source. Each April you get a statement from the IRS summarizing your allowances, deductions, tax paid and the amount that should have been paid. If you have over or under paid then they adjust your "tax code" (allowance) to balance it out during the coming year. If the difference is large enough then they can demand payment now, or you can request a check if you've overpaid.

Even charitable contributions are easy - the tax payer doesn't get the tax break, the organization claims the tax back.

Even though income taxes are much higher in the UK there is very little hassle. The IRS takes it all first and if you are lucky they give you a shirt to wear on your back (to spend on goods with 17.5% VAT applied to them to get that shirt back).

As to the OP, I don't really know why this year in particular there have been so many anti-tax threads here except for the fact that for years now we have had tax cuts, unfunded increases in benefits (Medicare Prescriptions), unfunded wars, loss of tax revenue with the recession, plus the bailouts. So the focus is on tax increases as the easiest way to get back to the surpluses of 10 years ago.

 

[MichaelB]

As to the OP, I don't really know why this year in particular there have been so many anti-tax threads here except for the fact that for years now we have had tax cuts, unfunded increases in benefits (Medicare Prescriptions), unfunded wars, loss of tax revenue with the recession, plus the bailouts. So the focus is on tax increases as the easiest way to get back to the surpluses of 10 years ago.

Kinda sums it up pretty nicely, wouldn't ya say?

 

[brewer12345]

Compaining about the tax code always strikes me as a waste of time: I don't enjoy paying taxes, but I cannot change anything about it, so I might as well do what I can to minimize the hit and get on with life. Seems like complaining about gravity, to me at least.

 

[walkinwood]

I feel there is more anti-government sentiment on these threads now than there was last year.

 

[Koolau]

Don't know if this is true for others but my primary issues with the coming tax increases is that I don't anticipate any advantage to ME from them. I already have health care - it was part of the reason I got a lower salary than some, I saved for my retirement (and paid lots of taxes in the process - and will pay a lot more when I cash in IRAs/401(k), I don't want any more "services" from the government, I don't want to bail out every Dick, Tom and Beatrice for their stupid mistakes, I paid my mortgage(s) on time and don't want to pay someone else's, I lived below my means so that I could have something in my old age to live on and I don't like the idea of being called "rich" because I did so, etc.

Some could argue (and will, no doubt, if not here, then in congress) that I had it good, so now it's time for me to feel some (well, actually MORE) pain at tax time. Good argument, if you're the one who will get my tax money handed to you on a platter. Not so good if you have to pay more than you used to so it CAN be handed to someone else.

Call it class envy or class warfare. It doesn't really matter. Any system that continually requires a larger share of GDP (yes, I know, it does go up and down, but the long-term trend is always up) is bound to upset those who end up paying. Since you have to have something to pay something - guess who gets to pay most of the new taxes. Those (in our case, the retirement community) who did all the "right" things (you know - like LBYM, save, do without, make do, etc. etc.). Now I strongly suspect the 50% who don't pay taxes will be trying to take even more from us who've always paid taxes.

I know there are arguments on all sides of this issue, but the OP's question was about why so many tax threads and the angrier tone. Anytime someone takes something away from you without your permission, I would say most folks DO get a bit angry about it. I'm all for charity and helping those with less than they can survive on, but I'd like to choose who I help and not have someone else choose who I must "donate" to.

I suppose tax time is one motivator to discuss these issues, but many other news items in the last year or so ("free" health-care, VAT taxes, Tim Guitner cheating on taxes, etc., etc.) might also have something to do with it. I consider this apolitical, because all politicians pander to those with their hands out. Just my opinion, of course and, of course YMMV.

But I'm not bitter!

Hey, how about those Blue Devils?

 

[smjsl]

@Koolau: I also don't want to bail out people that got in over their head with mortgages and such, but I guess the theory is it would be even worse if I did not due to complete economic collapse. Maybe so, maybe not, I am not smart enough to figure that one out but I suppose it's possible.

As for paying more for healthcare, I think this would benefit us if nothing else by just being a more just and civilized system which will be less like a wild west and more uniform in who gets covered and by how much.

I like the ideas of anyone being able to afford the same coverage as a senator, inability of insurance not to renew your contract once you get diagnosed with cancer, closing up things like Medicare coverage gaps (and I have a very long way to go before it reaches me), let alone insuring many people who can only go to ERs today to get some healthcare.

I remember having to effectively take a second job when taking care of a relative with a terminal desease. The "job" was the negotiating every week between overcharging hospital and individual labs due to their billing mistakes, and separately an insurance company not willing to pay for something they were supposed to.. and this was going on on a constant basis. The patient, or in this case someone like me acting on their behalf, always ends up in the middle trying to figure out what went wrong, where was the miscommunication between the giant companies, how to resolve old mistakes that pile up in new bills making it more difficult to explain to the next rep on the line (and who likely barely speaks English), etc... I can't imagine myself being sick and performing all these duties figuring out all the huge bills coming your way because as far as both other sides are concerned you pick up the tab if the other side does not. It was a horrific experience on top of dealing with a desease itself... And I am hoping I won't have to go through this by the time I am old enough... So, I'd rather pay higher taxes (and I will) to try to fix that system than billions & trillions of dollars say on a Bush Iraq war. That's the spending (and not just in monetary terms) that people should be angry about IMO. At least healthcare spending is trying to do something about a broken system. I don't know if it will succeed, but seems like a step in the right direction to me. I'd rather have a public option. I don't believe anyone should be dealing with insurance companies and hospital bills once they are sick. I'd rather pay more in taxes when I am healthy.

Sorry about the rant...

 

[Koolau]

Sorry about the rant...

Don't be sorry. I've been doing quite a few rants myself, lately. I don't particularly disagree with your take on health care. We all know it's broken. I'm just saying that I personally paid for mine already - mostly through lower wages. Now, I will have to subsidize those who chose not to buy health care or work for a company who provided it. Some couldn't help it - some could. Yes, there are many inequities, but it still comes down to the fact that it will cost me for someone else's health care. We could argue all day about whether that is "fair" or not. I just know it wasn't in my retirement budget and I know that it will cost more for the gummint to ration health care "fairly" than it will for some greedy insurance company to do it.

Sorry for the rant... Oooops! We're repeating ourselves.

 

[sidney]

There is a strong movement afoot to take things in a more conservative direction. Ryan's proposal to dismantle Medicare is a good start but doesn't go far enough. There is another movement, not public but well funded that is pursuing selling the entire Medicare program to private insurers. This would likely make a significant dent in the deficit as the sales of medicare contracts would likely extract a significant premium over the book value of reserves.