Ramifications of Revealing Wealth

[BellBarbara]

OK here is the worst. My Dad, who was never a good dad and absent most of my life, needed medical help when he moved away and was being taking advantage of by his ex-wife (trying to get his remaining money). He was being nice and was telling me how proud he was of me and my sister for making good lives....and saying he hoped we had enough set away, etc. Stupidly, looking for approval, I told him how much DH and I set away and his comment was to "be sure to hold onto it". One week later after being persuaded by the es-wife, he called to ask me to loan him 300K temporarily, while he got her to sell the house he bought. UGH. Of course I said no, and he still hasn't got her to sell the house.

NEVER tell people, no matter how innocent it sounds, about how much money you have. You hear this from people who win lotteries.

 

[BellBarbara]

I read a couple books before setting up our trust, and universally the stories of kids being hurt after being treated unfairly really impressed me. We decided to split evenly, no matter what. We told the kids (blended family) this so there would be no surprise.

A good friend of mine makes really good money, her hub the same....when his dad died he left almost all of his money to a newish wife who did not need it, and the rest to a no'er do well sister in and out of rehab. He is smart guy, but was super hurt to not be acknowledged in any way.

 

[youbet]

..........I don't think my parents are trying to penalize or spite me as much as make sure that my sister is going to be OK.

There ya go. It would be a horrible situation if parents could not help one child disproportionately to another because the rules said all must receive equally. I can't imagine having a struggling child and a very successful child where if I divided my wealth 50 - 50, there would not be enough in the struggling child's half to really help. Yet the extremely successful child would look at his/her half as trivial.

 

[robnplunder]

OK here is the worst. My Dad, who was never a good dad and absent most of my life, needed medical help when he moved away and was being taking advantage of by his ex-wife (trying to get his remaining money). He was being nice and was telling me how proud he was of me and my sister for making good lives....and saying he hoped we had enough set away, etc. Stupidly, looking for approval, I told him how much DH and I set away and his comment was to "be sure to hold onto it". One week later after being persuaded by the es-wife, he called to ask me to loan him 300K temporarily, while he got her to sell the house he bought. UGH. Of course I said no, and he still hasn't got her to sell the house.

NEVER tell people, no matter how innocent it sounds, about how much money you have. You hear this from people who win lotteries.

I have an "evil" brother who believes that I am entitled to help him out financially. After bailing him out so many times, it's over. Unlike you, I could not say no until things have gotten really sad/bad. Now, he is out of my life (and my parents, my siblings, etc.). Some people are wired to take advantage of others, even their family members. Human nature, I guess.

 

[Moemg]

A good friend of my family died ten years ago . She left a will that was slightly bizarre . She left most people in the will and there were quite a few $100 and a personal item . By the time she died the assets had grown and the list got whittled down by death so instead of inheriting a $100 . I inherited $10,000 and my personal item was an original tiffany lamp . That inheritance gave so much joy . My niece went to law school . My daughter paid for graduate school . I took my Mother , my Aunt & my daughter on a cruise .That's what I would like my will to do bring joy .

 

[BellBarbara]

Sad for you. I do honestly believe my dad thought he would pay me right back, he has 350K in that house, and still had about 150K in a bank account....but it was so awkward. I knew the ex-wife would do everything in her power to stop or block the sale and I would never see the money. This has born out. (I will probably need to hire an attorney on his behalf soon)

I feel lucky that my only sibling has done as well as we have (she never worked but her hub has done well) so there is no awkwardness about money between us. Same for my hub, his siblings are all ok and supporting themselves.

 

[Walt34]

I have an "evil" brother who believes that I am entitled to help him out financially.

DW has a sister like that, and that foolishness stopped when DW was in high school when DW got stung for filling up the sister's car. It has caused some resentment on her part because we're not doing what she thinks we should do for her. But when DW earned $5 for babysitting and bought a blouse the sister was angry because she couldn't buy one too. That's the way her mind works.

As has been discussed before "wealth" is relative and relative to her I suppose we are indeed fabulously wealthy. To his credit, FIL's will spread what little there was equally among the four adult children. My mother did the same with me and my sisters although there wasn't a yawning gulf in income/assets between us.

 

[brett]

We never, ever discuss our financial situation with anyone-including our adult children. There is really no need for anyone to know anything other than we are comfortable. Any knowledge past that point can only bring us grief. Most especially from the n'er do wells. It only breeds resentment, envy, and a few other unpleasant things. So why enable that? We prefer to keep our mouths shut and our eyes and ears open.

I have been an executor and have probated wills. In our jurisdiction any person named for inheritance in the will must receive a copy of the entire will. The executor has to swear to this, in addition to other things, prior to probate being granted.

DW has been in the position where she felt that she was not treated in a fair manner. But at the end of the day it is someone else's money and they are entitled to spend it/bequeath it how they wish. There is no point being upset or dwelling on it-the only person who gets hurt by that is you. You have to make a conscious decision to move on.

 

[robnplunder]

I am afraid my brother is one of those that defies logic. I was taking care my other brother who was dying of cancer. The "evil" one got really jealous of my dying brother's getting all the attention from me, and my financial support. The evil one started checking how often I am visiting my dying brother, cursing both of us out on phone, e-mails/texts (when we didn't respond, etc). He even faked some illness so that I can pay some attention to him. When my other family members rallied against his bad behavior, he started cursing his mom, dad, and just about everyone else. It got so bad that it ended up in a restraining order against him. Needless to say, no one invited him to his own brother's funeral. Hopefully, he is gone for good from our lives forever. The thing is, he refused to believe how mentally sick he is and will never change. Sad but true.

On the other hand, my RIP brother was a very nice man. Everyone who knew him is convinced how nice he is (was).

But I digress. Back to OP, if my mom had any money, she probably would leave it to me to distribute among her children as I see fit. I would not want that responsibility.

 

[youbet]

We never, ever discuss our financial situation with anyone-including our adult children.

I generally agree with this but have made the following exceptions in our own case:

1. I have a special needs grandson (cerebral palsy) and have set up a significant trust for him. I have discussed this with his father, my son, in detail. This removed a burden from his shoulders and he directs his savings to other areas, mainly retirement.

2. I'll be paying for my other two grand children to go to college and have 529b's, Coverdells, etc., in place. I've discussed this with their parents so the parents can concentrate on retirement saving and not on college saving.

3. I fund my son's and my DIL's IRAs annually (have full POA) and they need to know for tax purposes.

Sometimes not communicating information can lead to inappropriate allocation of resources by the adult children so best to share some things, IMHO. I haven't shared all details of my entire financial situation with the kids and don't plan to. I do need to get more documented in writing so they can take over efficiently when the last of DW or I pass.

 

[Bestwifeever]

....My mother knows my net worth. She is currently undergoing cancer treatment and her prognosis is uncertain. Since my brother and sister live 2 hours away, I am her main support person when she needs rides to doctors, help around the house, and I manage all her administrative needs, finances, taxes, etc.

We are now working with an attorney to create a new will and trust. When it came down to answering how she wanted assets distributed she wants me to be the executor of the estate and she wants all the assets put into a trust for my younger brother who is a nice guy but also a never-do-well who can't hold a job.
.....

She says that this is because I and my children don't need the money. I agree I don't but my children are not me. It hurts because it reinforces all the insecurities I carry about mine and my children's "rank" in the family. I actually lobbied her to put my children equal with the other grandkids in the will (not me, my children) but she wouldn't hear of it. ....

What a painful situation--so sorry. Do your children even have to know about it? It might be a difficult but helpful kindness on your part to let them have memories of a grandmother who loved them equally and not carry on insecurities about their rank in the family, so keep them out of the information loop?

I don't know how hard it would be to be executor of an estate in which logically you should share equally but in reality you are being cut out of it, but if you are able to just go ahead and do it, you would be giving your mother such a final gift. You really have all my respect for being there for her so far. If it helps, try to remember money does not equal love or happiness, and also that you "won" in the end on your own.

 

[FireBug]

To the OP....... don't have a suggestion for you, other to say, 'kudos' for your handling of a difficult situation.

 

[youbet]

if you are able to just go ahead and do it, you would be giving your mother such a final gift.

Yes. OP's mom needs a trusted friend and confidant to help her do what she wants to do for her children and, apparently, that person is OP. Leaving unequal amounts of material possessions to children and grand children is NOT a ranking or ordering of a parents love for those children. It's an expression of the parents desire for all her children to be safe and happy in life. If one is well off and exceptionally able to cope in the world, he might get less. If another has coped less well and is threatened by circumstances, he might get more. But the parent isn't rank ordering love and affection. In fact, the parent may love and appreciate the capable one more for not being the one causing the worry and anguish but, of course, can't say so.........

As a parent, providing unconditional love to all your children while shouldering worry over their well being (some more than others) isn't an easy thing. OP, help your mom and be proud that rather than being a worry or concern to your mom, you're a benefactor and there for her when she needs you.

 

[splitwdw]

BIL was executor of his mother's will. BIL has done well financially. BIL's brother was a loser and parents were always giving him money. Everything was left to brother in will. Brother spent all the money and doesn't understand why my BIL won't give him money, the parents did? BIL didn't care that he was left out. Said it wasn't his money. This happened a few years ago and my sister said they still get calls from brother asking for money.

 

[neihn]

I am thankful that my parents don't have any asset to leave to their children. I have a couple of siblings who may never be happy with whatever the split they got.

To the OP, I support her decision. It's her money & will. It's not fair for you but that's life - refer to my 1st paragraph above. You also get indirect benefit from her "wealth" & decision. If she doesn't have money to leave to your siblings, maybe, the burden to help your siblings will fall on you.

Don't worry, be happy (with your problem - a good one at that).

+1

 

[scrabbler1]

ScraBbler - too funny about the gainfully employed part of the will. My dad had a similar line in his trust. The inheritance wasn't enough for me to retire on alone... but it did move my retirement date closer a few years. I always considered that Dad trying to control his kids from the grave. (He was very much a control freak.)

The part of the will I mentioned (about employment) which I got deleted was not anything my dad asked to have included. It was part of the standard template the lawyer had which he gave to the 3 of us to review. My dad knew full well about my ER plans in 2008 so he would never have suggested such text be included to begin with.

 

[Andre1969]

This would be the reason I would have refused any inheritance. My mom is very controlling. If she had money to leave to her children, she would have used it to control them.

Your mention of your Mom made me think of something a bit controlling my own Mom did about a year and a half ago. She went off on one of her tangents about taxes, the government getting too much money, and so on, so she asked Grandmom if it was okay to transfer a little bit of money to the three of us...Mom, my uncle (Mom's brother) and me. Grandmom was okay with it, and Mom, who has access to Grandmom's checking account, wrote each of us checks for $10,000. I told Mom that if she really wanted to avoid taxes, she should have written them for the maximum allowable amount, which is like $13K or $14K?

Well, I don't know what Mom did with hers. I used mine to pay down on the HELOC. My uncle put his into an MM account that wasn't paying squat. Then he pulled out $1000 when he needed it. Then he pulled out another $2000 to lend to a friend who was in worse shape than him (but miraculously, she paid him back...I figured that money was gone for good). The final $7000, he ended up using as a big down payment on a new car.

Needless to say, Mom got pissed at both of us. She said that we were supposed to just put that money aside, into something safe, in case Grandmom needed it later on. Umm, would have been nice, Mom, if you would have told us about those strings BEFORE you distributed that money!

I told my Mom that in paying down my HELOC with it, it was like getting a 3.5% ROI on it (more if interest rates go up), and said that if I had to, I could always pull it back out. At least, I can until March 2015, when the draw period on the damn thing runs out...forgot about that little detail! They wanted me to jump through enough hoops to either refinance or open a new HELOC that I just said screw it...I'm letting it go to a 20 year mortgage.

Chances are, even with what Grandmom has left, she's not going to burn through her savings before she dies. But, if she does, I can always get that $10K back from something else. And my uncle, even though he's not as well off as me financially, could as well.

Oh, yeah, the other day Mom did ask me how much I had saved up. I had actually told her, about two years ago. But it's considerably more, now. I sidestepped it by saying simply "If I died tomorrow Mom, you'd never have to work another day as long as you live!" Mom retired 3 1/2 years ago, with a nice pension.

 

[ESRwannabe]

I guess I am weird but if I had a ton of money and my brother didn't then I'd be pushing my parents to give most/all of it to my brother. If they didn't do so I'd give my inheritance to my brother.

Anyway both me and my brother have done fine money wise. Neither of us is rich. I'd say we are both lower middle class as we are both IT worker drones.

What I always tell my parents is they should spend more of their money now while they are healthy (Dad is 67 and Mom is 65). I encourage them to spend it all and donate whatever is left to charity. My brother does the same.

My parents paid for my college education. I consider that my inheritance.

 

[FUEGO]

We have a strong imbalance between the wealth and income of me and my brother, and between DW and all of her siblings.

My parents try to split things equally, even to the point of my dad giving me $7000 when I was 20 or 21 when I bought my first condo. He said they had paid for some of my brother's trade school tuition in an amount greater than the small bit they paid for my college tuition (I paid most of my own way through undergrad through work and scholarships). They had also given my bro a bit more in a small UTMA investment account, so that $7000 they gave me was to put us siblings on par.

Fast forward 13 years. I just retired early, and my side of the family is fully aware. DW and I considered it might lead to us getting cut out of the will. I'd normally get half of an estate worth maybe $1-3 million today whenever my 61 yo parents shuffle off their mortal coils. My brother screwed around during and after HS and hasn't had a stable employment history. We thought my parents might feel sorry for him and favor him in the will. Hey, we don't need the inheritance money, so no big deal. I'd feel a little slighted at being punished for being successful, but it's my parents money, not mine.

In the last few months, my parents have decided to write HIM out of the will (he's being a monster of a D-bag right now). His half of their estate will go directly to his kids (my parents' grandkids). I'm supposed to get them hooked up with a new will (and maybe trusts) when I get back from vacation in a couple weeks.

I could have hid my ER status from my parents, but it wasn't worth it just to avoid the slight chance that I'd be written out of the will.

On the other hand, my DW's family doesn't really have a clue about my ER. They live just up the street and think I'm "just unemployed" or "taking time off work to take care of our young children". DW's mom keeps asking if I've found a job or if I'll go back to work after the 2 year old enters kindergarten. 3 out of DW's 4 siblings and her parents are nearly destitute (a $10,000-$20,000 emergency would bankrupt them unless they could tap into the one house in the entire family). They all know we are the financially responsible ones. They just don't know quite how financially responsible we are.

We struggle with how much information to share with DW's family since they are having a pretty rough go at life right now. They see us taking long vacations pretty often, always having financial security. I don't work, DW works but takes off months each year now and can work from home whenever. We aren't worried about the inheritance (it'd be 1/5 of a $140k house, and we might even disclaim the inheritance to give a little something to her other siblings who are good people, poor money management notwithstanding).

We are worried about being the family bank for her side. Or her parents' retirement plan (if SS doesn't cut it). We could help out some without busting our ER plans, but it would be hard to explain why we can't touch more than 3.3% of our very low seven figure portfolio. "Yeah but you'll still have a million in there, why not share more??". It goes without saying that we could exhaust our entire nest egg by buying each sibling a modest house and a modest car or two.

For right now, I'm "working from home on the computer some" and not making much money at it. It's true.

 

[Sea Kayaker]

My parents have been very successful. I would hazard to guess that their estate is probably north of 5 million - it could even be double that, but they are LBYM types, so it's hard to know for certain, and I haven't asked, nor will I.

They have told me in no uncertain terms that I will receive exactly half of the estate, my sister the other half. This is despite the fact that I have been far more successful financially than my sister, who is an idealistic dreamer type, who works sporadically, whereas I have been a career driven creature for the past 24 years. When I informed my folks I would be "retiring" this year at 42, I think it was the first clear indication to them as how well I have done. We have talked a bit about financial matters relating to my quitting work, and it is very clear that they have no desire to decrease my share of the estate. They simply do not see a need to reduce my share because I have worked hard and saved diligently, sticking to a 10 year plan to get to FIRE in my early 40's.

Great people, my folks.

 

[Bigal50]

This is really metaphysical, but if you look in your heart, I believe it is your ego that is hurt, that your kids weren't treated equally. Try to let it go. Pray, meditate go for a long bike ride or whatever you do to find inner peace.

Your mother's made up her mind. Let it go, and enjoy the rest of her time with her, knowing you are there to help her.

I know this isn't a easy solution, but in my experience it gives me the best peace of mind.


Sent from my iPhone using Early Retirement Forum

 

[Cassie]

Sounds like there are many well-off people on this board & that is great. Although I retired it wasn't early (did so at 63). Because we, friends/families, don't discuss finances I guess I'm doing ok with only a pension, no debt other than mortgage and a little money in my TSP. I often wonder what the average net worth is of someone in their mid 60's is.....sometimes I want to go on Suze Orman's "How am I Doing" segment. OP, thanks for sharing!

Cheers, Cassie

 

[AnIntentionalRoad]

I guess I am weird but if I had a ton of money and my brother didn't then I'd be pushing my parents to give most/all of it to my brother. If they didn't do so I'd give my inheritance to my brother.

As the OP I just want to clarify a bit. I told my mother I would support her decisions on her will (and even act as executor) even though I really think my perfectly healthy brother should man up and go get and keep a job and stop letting his wife take care of him and their 6 yo son. She is NOT a 6 figure a year professional. She makes about 50k per year managing fast food restaurants.

I think I would feel more of the equanimity that you profess if there was a legitimate reason my bro was broke. Like disability, mental issues, etc. But the guy just isn't very motivated and isn't frankly very competent. Why dies this earn him more free rides from our mother?

More to the point, what really bothers me is that IF HE DIES his son would get what is left. Not me, my sister, or any of the other 5 grandkids. It would all go to my brother's one 6 yo son, because mother is assuming he'll also be a deadbeat.

Frankly, barring disaster, my kids will be fine. But that's not the point. The point is why are they or their 3 cousins not on equal footing with the deadbeat bro's son?

Anyway, I have made a case about the grandkids to mother but as the process has move forward, she has become steadfast.

It is not about money, but about something else.

Oh, well! Be happy!

 

[MooreBonds]

In keeping with the thread's theme, both a response to the OP and 'relationship-affecting':

Response to the OP:

Since my brother and sister live 2 hours away, I am her main support person when she needs rides to doctors, help around the house, and I manage all her administrative needs, finances, taxes, etc.

We are now working with an attorney to create a new will and trust. When it came down to answering how she wanted assets distributed she wants me to be the executor of the estate and she wants all the assets put into a trust for my younger brother who is a nice guy but also a never-do-well who can't hold a job.

This is a situation I can personally somewhat relate to (taking care of someone 100x more than anyone else in the family, yet not really ever having that acknowledged). I imagine the most frustrating thing OP is going through is that the very person who is selflessly helping to take care of mom, taking time to take her to the doctor, watch over her investments, taxes, etc. is the ONLY one who is completely disinherited in all ways!

OP didn't retire early for the sole purpose of being mom's slave. For OP to take all of that time, effort, and concern is quite admirable (and some of these things you can do from a distance, if one of the other siblings ever cared to help out).

And it's likely the root of the feelings: why should OP go out of their way to do all of this with their FIRE freedom, when siblings don't appear to offer anything in the way of any help or concern or care? (just a guess, given lack of any details in the OP)

And as another poster noted, I surely would not want anything to do with being an executor or trustee of financial assets that ONLY benefit someone else at my 'expense' of being disinherited - not only from the likely headaches of challenges and arguments and distrust, but also purely from the continued self-sacrificial slaving away for someone else's complete benefit at your expense and effort.

Now, if it was a dear friend who asked me to be a trustee for their estate and their family because they knew no one and had reason to trust me and my knowledge, and I didn't have any familial relationships, then I would view it differently.

But I would simply start to help mom understand that you are going out of your way to be there for her, unlike her other siblings (unless they have done heroic actions for her in the past), and simply say that you are unable to fulfill her wishes as an executor/trustee, and simply recommend that she hire a service (perhaps Vanguard) for her estate and trustee needs. And then have her start going to H&R Block or a local CPA for her taxes next year - yet another item that you shouldn't feel compelled to take upon yourself. You are already doing volumes of great deeds for your mother.

You can still oversee everything and review everything - but don't feel compelled to continue to take on everything yourself.


"Relationship-affecting situation"

While other posters have commented on end-of-life issues, mine is more at the other end: while approaching FIRE in the not-too-distant future (hopefully!), I'm still dating and trying to find "the one". There have been a few other posts over the years about single members of the forum and their challenges to keep a low profile and protect themselves, while also finding someone that has a variety of characteristics.

I've only vaguely referenced the concept of possibly pursing early retirement "with my wife, if we're willing to really sacrifice and push for it" a handful of times to a few women I've dated. Once was a big mistake (but I already had started to develop a wonder about whether she was just 'bad news', and part of the reason for bringing up ER was to help flesh out a few more indicators that helped me realize she was truly mentally unstable).

Usually, I would only bring up the vague concept of ER either if she mentions retirement dates or ages first, or if things were that far enough along that I knew her spending/saving habits fairly well, and wanted to bring up a discussion about retirement).

Otherwise, I use a variety of indicators to both observe and indirectly ascertain what her spending/lifestyle habits and attitudes are like, since at least somewhat similar fiscal attitudes is one of the main important criteria I'm looking for.

 

[BellBarbara]

I forgot to tell the story of how my errant father mentioned above (asking to borrow 300K from me) once called me about 10 years ago (when he was still married to the ex-wife who has his house hostage) telling me he was creating a will and would be naming me executor....but that he wanted me to know in advance that he would not be leaving any money to me or my sister, he would be leaving it to the kids of this ex-wife (3 of which are losers). Hahaha Who does stuff like this? I didn't tell my sister as I knew she would flip out.