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Old 05-07-2014, 11:03 AM   #41
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What do say about someone whose entire household spends 2.5% of their investment portfolio each year and has the paychecks from his wife piling up (unspent) in a money market account? What if that number was 1% and the working spouse worked 1 day per week because she likes what she does?

This comment is directed more generally beyond you, Scrabbler:

I'm starting to think some of your definitions of retirement aren't very fun any more. I can't spend time with my kids, piddle around in my yard with my garden and landscaping, or cook awesome meals (that's "being a SAHD" apparently). I can't do something I enjoy (and do for free at forums like this) and make a buck off of it with very occasional effort. You guys sure do put a lot of constraints on what someone can fill their day with.

Maybe because I'm 33 and not 20+ years older like the typical early retiree here. As much as I love laying in my hammock on my back deck cozied up with an engaging book, I can't do that all day every day.
But you are also dependent on your wife's working for your health insurance. Would you be able to forgo her income and pay for your entire family's HI for many years (even with the ACA) if she were not working?

If I were married and were able to piggyback onto her employer's group health plan, I'd have been able to retire years before I actually did. HI was my biggest obstacle to ER back in 2008 (before the ACA).
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Old 05-07-2014, 11:11 AM   #42
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To me you've chosen a different path for earning a living. How it looks 10 years from now when you have 3 kids driving and going to college or 25 years from now is anyone's guess.
+1. With our kids driving, we pay an extra $2K a year for car insurance, and I have shopped around. That is with zero accidents and tickets. On $34K that would be a 5% increase in living costs just for car insurance.

The local community college still costs ~$3k with books, tuition, parking. etc. plus gas and mileage. There is a 10% increase over $34K, per college age kid, and that doesn't include buying another car for the kids to share.

An 18 year kid into sports is going to eat you out of house and home, and when his friends are over it will look like locusts went through your pantry.

Then there's the big stuff that happens to most of us if you live long enough - serious illness with out of pocket maxes and out of network costs, helping aging relatives, nursing home costs, etc.

Last year we paid $50K in health care expenses due to one family member needing surgery. It would have been lower under a subsidized ACA plan, but we still would have had $6K out of pocket max for an individual, ($12k per family if it had been something like a car accident) and $20K in out of network and travel costs, plus premiums.
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Old 05-07-2014, 11:39 AM   #43
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That's of course not at all bad for cats. Out in the wild, animals eat all of their preys, except for bones. It makes them strong.

Now, is it really bad for humans too?
In a tuna processing plant, the bones go in the ball mill for pulverizing along with other "non-flesh" parts. That stuff usually gets sold as part of fish meal and may be added to other food products.

None of this is harmful to humans.
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Old 05-07-2014, 12:40 PM   #44
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But if I wanted to claim I was retired and FI, while DW still works, I'd expect some push-back - just like the chain smoker who claims he doesn't have a habit because he could quit any time.
I really don't get that. DH retired when he was 62. He hasn't worked a day since then. And, we are FI. Yet, I semi-retired at 56 when he retired and I've worked since then (12 hours a week at the height, now it is about 2 or 3 hours a month). I don't see how what I've chosen to do affects whether he is retired or whether we are FI. I mean part of being FI is that you get to choose what you want to do,

I think what I'm reading here is that it makes a difference how old you are -- and maybe gender makes a difference.

That is, my DH is 66 now and I work very limited hours (about 2 or 3 hours a month). I doubt that many here would think that this suddenly means we aren't FI or that DH isn't really retired. But, what about the year when I worked 12 hours a week and made almost 6 figures from that work. DH was 64 then so maybe some would still seem as retired. But, would they think it was different if he had been 34 instead of 64.

Also, what about a woman who worked when she was younger and then was a SAHM mom for some years. Her kids grow up and are out of the house. She turns, say, 60 years old and her husband retires that year. What is she? Is she retired? Is she still a SAHM since her kids are gone. Is she now a homemaker?
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Old 05-07-2014, 12:42 PM   #45
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Regarding the question of whether FUEGO can be called "retired", question for those that say "no"...

What about this situation: a single person X stops working completely and lives off of their investments on $Y/year; i.e. the less controversial definition of "retirement".

Then, they meet a wonderful person and marry them. Their partner happens to be working. So is now this person X UNretired? Did UNretirement happen when they got the marriage license or when they moved in together or when they started sharing expenses? What if person X's outflows from the investments is still $Y for the combined household?

Just wondering...
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Old 05-07-2014, 12:57 PM   #46
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In a tuna processing plant, the bones go in the ball mill for pulverizing along with other "non-flesh" parts. That stuff usually gets sold as part of fish meal and may be added to other food products...
for humans? If so, can you name some? I want to be strong, but not that strong.

Quote:
None of this is harmful to humans.
It's most likely not. Still...

They probably even know how to make it taste good. Nothing that a bit of garlic, pepper, and salt cannot spice up.
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Old 05-07-2014, 01:18 PM   #47
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I posted in another thread that disputed that in couples where one spouse works the other can't be considered retired. I had issues with it there and have issues with it here.

Fuego says they can afford to have his wife quit. She's chosen not to. I believe him. He's posted details on their frugal living and budget - so he's walking the walk of LBYM.

The fact that they have school age children changes things? The fact that he's married changes things?

We have school age children. My husband IS retired. I hope to join him in 48 weeks (or less - my bs bucket at work might tip this week.)

We have enough money to live off our investments and income streams now. So does my working effect my husbands retirement status? I think not.

And the definition that you can only be FIREd if you're living off dividends alone is absolutely ridiculous. Lots of retired people living on Pensions, SS, Rental income (managed by others). Lots of people with withdrawal rates that will end with no money in the nest egg when they kick it at age 90 or 100... are they not retired because they are drawing down their principal?

The label police need to get a grip.
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Old 05-07-2014, 01:21 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post

But if I wanted to claim I was retired and FI, while DW still works, I'd expect some push-back - just like the chain smoker who claims he doesn't have a habit because he could quit any time.
I really don't get that. DH retired when he was 62. He hasn't worked a day since then. And, we are FI. Yet, I semi-retired at 56 when he retired and I've worked since then (12 hours a week at the height, now it is about 2 or 3 hours a month). I don't see how what I've chosen to do affects whether he is retired or whether we are FI. I mean part of being FI is that you get to choose what you want to do, ...
I'm not saying it can't be justified. I'm just saying (and that is what I said) if you are going to blog about it, and make money from the blog about how you are retired and FI, then I think you can expect some 'push-back' for that statement.

I'm not even saying the 'push-back' is justified. Maybe they are the ones who are off-base. But it turned back into an attack on anyone questioning it, essentially saying we are all closed-minded if his lifestyle doesn't exactly match ours. That was off-base, and uncalled for IMO.

-ERD50
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Old 05-07-2014, 01:38 PM   #49
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....And the definition that you can only be FIREd if you're living off dividends alone is absolutely ridiculous. Lots of retired people living on Pensions, SS, Rental income (managed by others). Lots of people with withdrawal rates that will end with no money in the nest egg when they kick it at age 90 or 100... are they not retired because they are drawing down their principal?

The label police need to get a grip.
+100
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Old 05-07-2014, 01:40 PM   #50
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I think for some of the extreme ER bloggers it is more of a question of the basic numbers not adding up more than terminology.

In that case, if you can't defend yourself with facts and spreadsheets, then mocking and name calling people who question your numbers is really your only defense.
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Old 05-07-2014, 01:46 PM   #51
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for humans? If so, can you name some? I want to be strong, but not that strong.
No, those products get sold in bulk to other food companies.

With regard to canned tuna, the fish are cleaned and the meat is graded by hand while moving along a conveyor belt. The raw tuna is put into cans and a lid is sealed on the full at the same time nitrogen gas is introduced in the void. Then the cans are put into retorts and heated until the tuna is cooked. Then labels are put on the cans based on the customer. It's all good. Canned shrimp is done this way too.
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Old 05-07-2014, 01:56 PM   #52
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Gee whiz folks. Not sure I get the importance of what retirement's definition is. OTOH it depends on the definition of what is is.

Just to throw a little p__s on the fire, I think I would have considered myself financially independent 3-5 years before I quit. And I referred to DW as retired long before that. It almost seems like we have a p__ing contest about who REALLY is RE or FI or whatever and I'm not sure that's a productive discussion. While I considered myself FI long before I quit my job, at 60 I don't really consider myself to have retired early. So please don't throw me off the board, I enjoy this place!
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Old 05-07-2014, 02:33 PM   #53
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What about this situation: a single person X stops working completely and lives off of their investments on $Y/year; i.e. the less controversial definition of "retirement".

Then, they meet a wonderful person and marry them. Their partner happens to be working. So is now this person X UNretired? Did UNretirement happen when they got the marriage license or when they moved in together or when they started sharing expenses? What if person X's outflows from the investments is still $Y for the combined household?

Just wondering...
It depends on their income outside $Y relative to their combined expenses. If the partner earns $5Y and the combined expenses are $3Y, it's difficult to argue that $Y is cutting it. If the partner earns another $Y after tax and the combined expenses stay at $Y, remember money is fungible ...
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Old 05-07-2014, 03:05 PM   #54
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Who cares about FI, ER, ESR, ERS, I wanna talk about substituting cat food for dinner. Can I use it as topping on my pizza - which I make out of two stacked tortillas and spoiled-milk cheese, pasta sauce is usually optional.
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Old 05-07-2014, 03:09 PM   #55
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Who cares about FI, ER, ESR, ERS, I wanna talk about substituting cat food for dinner. Can I use it as topping on my pizza - which I make out of two stacked tortillas and spoiled-milk cheese, pasta sauce is usually optional.
I think most pizza chains already do that. We used to get bags of "pellets" labeled "beef topping" and "pork topping"...
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Old 05-07-2014, 03:24 PM   #56
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Goodness people, don't we know by now that anything means whatever it's author intends it to mean, ie. if it gets the effect he is after, that is all that matters. I am a superhero, I am retired, I am a master of the universe. If I say so, it must be true
Well...... In that case I'm a "Sensitive New Age Guy!" And damn proud of it!
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Old 05-07-2014, 03:34 PM   #57
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But you are also dependent on your wife's working for your health insurance. Would you be able to forgo her income and pay for your entire family's HI for many years (even with the ACA) if she were not working?

If I were married and were able to piggyback onto her employer's group health plan, I'd have been able to retire years before I actually did. HI was my biggest obstacle to ER back in 2008 (before the ACA).
Her employment is actually an impediment to us getting good health insurance through the ACA exchange (employer provided insurance = not eligible for exchange policy). We would get a heavily subsidized silver plan for ~$1000/yr with lots of cost sharing. As is, we pay a little less than that for a high deductible plan through her employer. I expect we'll be better off financially with the exchange plan compared to our current employer provided HDHP.

We do get lightly subsidized dental insurance through her employer, but I've included out of pocket dental (with negotiated discounts) in my $32k/yr spending. The dental insurance still costs about what cleanings and routine xrays would cost, so it's almost a wash assuming minimal cavities. (Let's not discuss potential for braces right now... )
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Old 05-07-2014, 03:38 PM   #58
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Who cares about FI, ER, ESR, ERS, I wanna talk about substituting cat food for dinner. Can I use it as topping on my pizza - which I make out of two stacked tortillas and spoiled-milk cheese, pasta sauce is usually optional.
People are going about this all wrong. Healthier way to get meat and at almost 0 cost is to set traps for pigeons, squirrels, mice, and other unsuspecting animals around us. They are free, organic, and will bring variety to your dinner table. No need to worry about recycling cat food cans.
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Old 05-07-2014, 04:20 PM   #59
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Seems now this thread has morphed into the real definition of "retirement" v.s. packing tuna fish. But more importantly, yesterday my wife told me to put the clothes in the dryer, and today to put clothes away in the drawer. Before I could say I was busy working now what is my excuse? Should I say "Hey woman, I can't do that! I am Retired!" But then she might want to retire too. So wives get to retire too? Next think you know she will want me to empty the dishwasher and put away the dishes. Wait, I already do that. What about that tuna fish? is it really good to eat? I hear it has mercury. Darn, the world is complicated.
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Old 05-07-2014, 04:37 PM   #60
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It depends on their income outside $Y relative to their combined expenses. If the partner earns $5Y and the combined expenses are $3Y, it's difficult to argue that $Y is cutting it. If the partner earns another $Y after tax and the combined expenses stay at $Y, remember money is fungible ...
I see. So, basically, it goes something like:

X: I don't want to go on that expensive trip costing us $Y on its own - we don't have the money for it since we are already on track to spend $2Y this year. I don't think we really need it...

P: I make $5Y/year, I'll be happy to pay for it for both of us. I really want to go.

X: Uh oh, if I agree, I am no longer really considered "retired" or self-sufficient even, but it will make you happy and I could enjoy it too... But then how do I sleep at night? What to do... ?

Tough choices...
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