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Old 02-17-2017, 08:38 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by engprodigy View Post
Not at all, I did, my sister did, probably 1/3 of the engineers in my jr and sr courses did.



Seems like more of the "woe is me" stuff... I did undergrad in 4 and MS in 1.5.
...but then again, you ARE a prodigy, lol! Similar trip is not a slam dunk for others.

Pls. refrain from insult. I cited anecdotal evidence, plus observations about the drop-out rate, plus a peer-reviewed article. Looking at the content with a skeptical eye, I don't discern any "woe is me", lol!
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Old 02-17-2017, 08:58 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by jane_sm1th73 View Post
Pls. refrain from insult. I cited anecdotal evidence, plus observations about the drop-out rate, plus a peer-reviewed article. Looking at the content with a skeptical eye, I don't discern any "woe is me", lol!
Insult?

Read my post above... the "woe is me" is referring to the attitude that is becoming more rampant in our society regarding things just being too hard or impossible now.

You attribute it taking six years to get an engineering degree now to the work load... I doubt the workload is any greater and I attribute it to the attitude changes of our society as we continue to tell people things aren't fair and too hard.
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Old 02-17-2017, 09:18 AM   #143
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I would choose a different analogy.

People are not a commodity. ...

Would you buy the cheapest machinery, then constantly cut back on maintenance to save a buck? To me, that's a sure sign of a failing business.
And if a business owner chooses (or is ignorant) to buy the cheapest machinery and cut back on maintenance, and this negatively affects his business, he/she will go out of business.

Same with hiring practices. If they don't offer enough total compensation (not simply measured by $), they won't attract high quality workers. That may actually work for some businesses, and not for others. I think that choice can also be left up to the business owner, and the people who apply (or chose not to apply) for jobs there.

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It used to be employees were considered stakeholders, along with customers and stockholders.

Think about what the word "company" means. It's supposed to mean people working together toward a common goal. The goal is not only to make money, but to somehow better society and its members. True, you need to provide a reasonable return on investment if you want to borrow (sell stock or attract venture capital) to grow your business. But the goal is supposed to be growing the business, not selling stock or making a few investors fabulously wealthy.
And if you aren't paying enough to attract good employees, you probably won't succeed in any of the above. And if you pay higher than your competition for the same quality of employee (or raw materials, machinery, etc), you probably won't succeed in any of the above either.

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Once your business reaches a point where you can't do it all yourself, you have to hire employees. Your employees become a critical component. They are one of the factors of production. Treat them right and they will treat your plant, your equipment, your finances right. They will care about your product, your customers, your goals. They will make your business strong.
Treat them wrong and they will leave, and/or you won't attract good employees. You will learn the balancing point or likely fail altogether, and then you aren't creating jobs for anyone.

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They will reflect back whatever attitude you take toward them. Treat them with disdain, distrust and disloyalty, and they will treat you the same at every opportunity. They may not actually quit in a down job market, but they will certainly not share the goals of the business, and you won't be getting as much value from them.
I think successful businesses fully realize this, and act accordingly.

And I still don't see you offering to pay more than the stated price for routine purchases (the kind you don't normally negotiate for). Do you throw in an extra 10% on your bill at the grocery store, you know, to help all those people? Don't you share in your vision of the way things should be as a customer?

As a reference point, in my dealings with retail outlets and service providers, I fully expect them to charge me a reasonable price - one that assures they can attract good people and good equipment and maintain it. If they are doing good work for me, I want them to stay in business. I'm not going to try to undercut their price such that they can't survive - that hurts me in the long run, I won't have a quality service available to me.

But it's a moot point - they set their price, I can take it or leave it. If I find someone at a lower price, but find their quality not to be up to my standards, I will not use them in the future. But if I find they are offering good quality at that price, it is up to their competition to learn and improve. If it didn't work that way, we would never advance in efficiency, and just accept the status quo.

Be careful what you ask for.

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Old 02-17-2017, 09:26 AM   #144
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With one slight edit. Social media are indeed powerful attitude influencers.

I thought times wuz hard in 1980, but how many people could I tell about it? Maybe a dozen? Now, one can hit a button and send an "Old Economy Steve" meme to thousands, who pass it along to thousands more, until it becomes received truth simply because so many people have seen it.



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I attribute it to the attitude changes of our society as we continue to tell people each other things aren't fair and too hard.
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Old 02-17-2017, 09:41 AM   #145
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I don't see how paying a competitive rate (and not more) is stealing. I agree with Robbie that companies have an obligation to their shareholders to not overpay for any resources they need, including their employees.
Withholding a competitive rate for employees across the entire company is now the norm, yet that same corporation will let its board of directors vote themselves astronomical stock options and raises that are over 1000 times higher than what the standard of board member compensation 30 years ago. You could double the pay of the entire staff of non executive personell and not come close to the compensation of the key executives. How is that not stealing from you Mr. Shareholder? The executives of today are not 1000 times better than those of 30 years ago, in fact, many are total failures, only to last 3-5 years and exit with a huge compensation package, with no truthful gain to the company in the entire tenure. The problem is NOT with higher pay for the average worker, its the extremely high unfair compensation for those at the top.
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Old 02-17-2017, 10:08 AM   #146
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Tuition in 2017=$51,950 3.14 times higher 214% increase
No one is forced to pay $51,950 a year in college tuition. There are certainly state flagship universities where tuition is one-fifth that amount.
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Old 02-17-2017, 10:25 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by CaptTom View Post
I would choose a different analogy.

People are not a commodity. It used to be employees were considered stakeholders, along with customers and stockholders.

Think about what the word "company" means. It's supposed to mean people working together toward a common goal. The goal is not only to make money, but to somehow better society and its members. True, you need to provide a reasonable return on investment if you want to borrow (sell stock or attract venture capital) to grow your business. But the goal is supposed to be growing the business, not selling stock or making a few investors fabulously wealthy.

Once your business reaches a point where you can't do it all yourself, you have to hire employees. Your employees become a critical component. They are one of the factors of production. Treat them right and they will treat your plant, your equipment, your finances right. They will care about your product, your customers, your goals. They will make your business strong.

They will reflect back whatever attitude you take toward them. Treat them with disdain, distrust and disloyalty, and they will treat you the same at every opportunity. They may not actually quit in a down job market, but they will certainly not share the goals of the business, and you won't be getting as much value from them.

Would you buy the cheapest machinery, then constantly cut back on maintenance to save a buck? To me, that's a sure sign of a failing business.

I think your argument is a straw man.... who said you cannot treat your employees well and still pay them the market wage (which might be low)... nobody is saying you have to treat them with disdain, distrust and disloyalty when they have a low salary... IMO, quite the opposite...


And again, from what I have read, we are talking about paying them market rates, not half.... and if you look at job wage brackets, they can be pretty large... say a job can be a low of $30K and a high of $60K....
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Old 02-17-2017, 10:33 AM   #148
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No one is forced to pay $51,950 a year in college tuition. There are certainly state flagship universities where tuition is one-fifth that amount.
Name just 5 in the USA? Provide documentation. Include room and board, since for 95% of students that usually applies.

We just went through this process with our son, so I know you are going to have trouble with your facts.

Cheapest state Universities in a low COLA state with room and board run $25,000 per year minimum. That's one hundred grand for a cheap in-state school after 4 years. And with rates rising 7-9% each year, it will be $30,000-$35,000 per year before the student is done unless that state puts a temporary freeze on rate hikes.

COST PER YEAR TUITION AND EXPENSES FOR "THE" Ohio State University
Cost of Attendance In-state: $25,539 Out-of-state: $44,731
Tuition and Fees In-state: $10,037 Out-of-state: $29,229
Room and Board $11,666
Books and Supplies $1,234
Other Expenses $2,602

(Other expenses include NON-optional fees assessed for anything from lab fees to internet access to bus services)

I spreadsheeted all the choices for our son from over a dozen schools from private liberal arts to in-state schools.

These days on the low end you can get a four year degree from a state University for about $100,000 (unless you have scholarships) to a high end at a private institution for over $300,000. These prices rise by the year at a pace that is 4- 5 times inflation, so any research one might have done 5-10 years ago, is way off target in today's terms.
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Old 02-17-2017, 10:51 AM   #149
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Name just 5 in the USA? Provide documentation. Include room and board, ...
Look back at the quote - the "$51,950 a year in college tuition" he replied to was for tuition only.

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Originally Posted by Lucky-Sperm-Club View Post
....

Tuition in 2017=$51,950 3.14 times higher 214% increase
I don't know if it is accurate or not, but that was what he was replying to.

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Old 02-17-2017, 11:11 AM   #150
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IDK...

If the price of something is outrageous stop paying it. I suspect based on the nature of this board, most people would assume what bimmers and benzs cost is outrageous (or at least not worth it) so they don't pay it, they opt for the honda or something.

I just looked up the state school where I received my BS, total estimated annual cost $24k. Of course that includes the school's estimate of $9k a year for room and board, which is absurd IMO since that's $1k a month, but I guess the standards of what college kids need is much higher today...

There are so many other options than paying absurd prices for college. Do the first two years a junior college, go to smaller state schools, have roommates and live in <gasp> a mediocre apartment. I guess saying your kids going to State U Jr College the first two years might not sound as impressive as <insert big fancy impressive> College, but C'est la vie, choices and consequences.

Meh... like I said the more prevalent this attitude becomes the better as far as I'm concerned, being a shining star just keeps getting easier
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Old 02-17-2017, 11:36 AM   #151
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Withholding a competitive rate for employees across the entire company is now the norm .... .
That doesn't even make sense. If a company isn't competitive with their compensation, they will lose their employees to.... their competitors. And if they are all doing it ('the norm'), then it is a competitive rate, by definition.


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... You could double the pay of the entire staff of non executive personell and not come close to the compensation of the key executives. How is that not stealing from you Mr. Shareholder? ...
It's only stealing if those executives are being over-paid (by what measure?). I think there are issues with C-level pay, and collusion with the BOD, but that's not the topic.

Are you talking about total pay, or individual pay? I doubt there are many large companies where the total pay of the employees is less than half the total of the top executives. Could you provide a few examples?

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Old 02-17-2017, 02:53 PM   #152
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Look back at the quote - the "$51,950 a year in college tuition" he replied to was for tuition only.



I don't know if it is accurate or not, but that was what he was replying to.

-ERD50
My post was the relative increases.

Yes my school is not the cheapest school in the lot, nor the most expensive! But the tuition increase is way out of wack with the salary increase of a GS9 government employee.

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Originally Posted by Al in Ohio View Post
Name just 5 in the USA? Provide documentation. Include room and board, since for 95% of students that usually applies.

We just went through this process with our son, so I know you are going to have trouble with your facts.

Cheapest state Universities in a low COLA state with room and board run $25,000 per year minimum. That's one hundred grand for a cheap in-state school after 4 years. And with rates rising 7-9% each year, it will be $30,000-$35,000 per year before the student is done unless that state puts a temporary freeze on rate hikes.
+1

I just went through the school dance with my daughter and my son is close behind. So I am keenly aware of costs of schools and their relative value in the market place. The cost to value relationship has been widening for some time now, and it has gotten way out of control.

When my daughter was just a few years old I recall wondering how we would ever afford the $100,000 tuition of MIT. 15 years later when she graduated high school that figure had jumped to over $200,000.
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Old 02-17-2017, 03:02 PM   #153
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Recession's Mark on Millennials

$1000 per month for room and board is actually quite cheap. You try renting an apartment and then addind in a meal plan with 3 meals a day of mongolian barbeque or all you can eat buffet type food for the entire month, plus csble tv, internet and all utilities paid. Get the picture?
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Old 02-17-2017, 03:03 PM   #154
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Withholding a competitive rate for employees across the entire company is now the norm, yet that same corporation will let its board of directors vote themselves astronomical stock options and raises that are over 1000 times higher than what the standard of board member compensation 30 years ago. You could double the pay of the entire staff of non executive personell and not come close to the compensation of the key executives. How is that not stealing from you Mr. Shareholder? The executives of today are not 1000 times better than those of 30 years ago, in fact, many are total failures, only to last 3-5 years and exit with a huge compensation package, with no truthful gain to the company in the entire tenure. The problem is NOT with higher pay for the average worker, its the extremely high unfair compensation for those at the top.
++++++1 on that. As a shareholder of many companies it makes me sick to see the compensation of some of the board members and top executives. And many of them get ridiculous stock options that are still "in the money" even as the stock price craters. I keep wondering why mutual funds don't start getting tough on this "legal theft"
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Old 02-17-2017, 03:23 PM   #155
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Name just 5 in the USA? Provide documentation. Include room and board, since for 95% of students that usually applies.

We just went through this process with our son, so I know you are going to have trouble with your facts.
[...]
COST PER YEAR TUITION AND EXPENSES FOR "THE" Ohio State University
Cost of Attendance In-state: $25,539 Out-of-state: $44,731
Tuition and Fees In-state: $10,037 Out-of-state: $29,229
[...]
Well, unless I have problems with reading comprehension, I think one of the schools with annual tuition less than one-fifth of $51,950 turns out to be "THE" Ohio State University unless you are trying to catch me with alternative facts.

I've paid for two millennials to go to college. One of them graduated from one of those schools with purported Cost of Attendance of about $70,000. The other is getting through a school with $20,000 CoA. I am keenly aware of the cost of a college education because I've paid for 3 of them. I am keenly aware of the choices that are available, too.
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Old 02-17-2017, 03:32 PM   #156
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Well, unless I have problems with reading comprehension, I think one of the schools with annual tuition less than one-fifth of $51,950 turns out to be "THE" Ohio State University unless you are trying to catch me with alternative facts.


Over $25 grand would be only half, not one fifth. So yes. Let's call it comprehension failure rather than alternate facts. Cause facts IS facts!
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Old 02-17-2017, 03:43 PM   #157
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++++++1 on that. As a shareholder of many companies it makes me sick to see the compensation of some of the board members and top executives. And many of them get ridiculous stock options that are still "in the money" even as the stock price craters. I keep wondering why mutual funds don't start getting tough on this "legal theft"
That's one of the reasons I like Parnassus funds. The fund managers are activist shareholders who call out the companies they invest in regarding their business practices. Their management fees are high relative to index funds, but not outrageously high, and they do pretty well performance-wise with a socially responsible agenda.

It's where I put my "slow money."
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Old 02-17-2017, 03:48 PM   #158
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Over $25 grand would be only half, not one fifth. So yes. Let's call it comprehension failure rather than alternate facts. Cause facts IS facts!
OK, I'm happy to call it comprehension failure.
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Old 02-17-2017, 03:49 PM   #159
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$1000 per month for room and board is actually quite cheap. You try renting an apartment and then addind in a meal plan with 3 meals a day of mongolian barbeque or all you can eat buffet type food for the entire month, plus csble tv, internet and all utilities paid. Get the picture?
Of course living in an apartment is an upgrade from a dorm. A double dorm room at Mich State runs 3000 for the room and from 2800 up for food (per semester (depending on extras of which there are a lot more than 45 years ago). Including the dining hall being open from 7 am to 8pm instead of roughly 2 hours per meal 45 years ago (closing at 630 pm then) And by far a lot more food choices.
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Old 02-17-2017, 03:50 PM   #160
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Over $25 grand would be only half, not one fifth. So yes. Let's call it comprehension failure rather than alternate facts. Cause facts IS facts!
Wow
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