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Old 02-16-2017, 10:40 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
It's not stealing, of course. YWow.

-ERD50
Yes it is. It's weaponizing one's economic position to exploit the other actor. Not a free market transaction
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Old 02-16-2017, 01:02 PM   #122
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Re: minimum wage and college costs- college cost has risen faster than nearly everything else- its not surprising that wages haven't kept up to that.
Great point, & I agree 100%
I wanted to go into more detail, but unfortunately, it's one of those subjects that you can't discuss without getting political.
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Old 02-16-2017, 01:31 PM   #123
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Not a free market transaction
I disagree with you and agree with ERD50.

The front or back door of the establishment is not locked, and one is not chained to the desk. One can only be taken advantage of only if one let's them.

If one puts themselves in a economic bind because of purchase choices, choice of spouse, or choice of birth control, one cannot blame the employer to stay competitive. The individual must also stay competitive. For example, I had several opportunities to jump ship when raises got skimpy, but I wasn't giving up 4 or 5 weeks vacation to start over at 2.

When your employer takes away your health insurance just before you retire, like mine, it's an economic decision on their part. It was my choice to be prepared when and if I got screwed.
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Old 02-16-2017, 05:54 PM   #124
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Of course going to school in the late 1960s and early 1970s the buildings might not have been open at midnight, and of course to put that deadline in someone had to be there to timestamp the work. so it was more likley the first class of the week that was the deadline (because it was less trouble for the prof that way) It is actually hard to see the advantage of midnight to 8am the next day, which in the days of physical paper having to be handed in made life easier all around (all be it with less sleep in some cases)
I'm responding to the first reply, since there was an avalanche of dissenting opinion, lol! OK, OK - I cry uncle!

FWIW, I got my engr grad degree within the past five years, so the world was well into the wired age. I was also working full time. However, I was only taking one course at a time, year-round. Took me four years. If I had been taking two at a time, it would not have been possible.

I take nothing away from anybody who said "pshaw!', and recognize that my experience is anecdotal (N=1). However, I did witness 40% of my entering class drop out because of the circumstances I cited.

I was not exaggerating: one course at a time was a 45 hour weekly slog outside of class. Would not have been possible to do two classes at a time. The last 18 mos was totally consumed with the capstone project, which meant at least that classwork was over with.

Thanks to everybody for your give and take on my "throwing down the gauntlet" assertion - very valuable.

I will note that undergrad engr degrees are at least as bad for most. I read somewhere (no cite - apologies - don't have time to look it up) that the typical engineering undergrad degree in the 2010s era takes six years - not four. I attribute this entirely to the workload.

But, if you like knowing how things work, there's no getting away from getting that foundation.

Thanks to all! Cheerio, Jane
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Old 02-16-2017, 05:56 PM   #125
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I don't see why this should be political. I'm quite sure there are good folks of every political persuasion who feel that it's morally wrong for MegaCorp to "screw" the employees just because it can.

As someone else mentioned above, my own company admitted as much; they cut benefits and pay not because they had to, but because they could get away with it. They were and still are a very profitable company. The amount they diddled the employees out of had very little impact on the bottom line. If anything, I'd say it is a long-term negative to demoralize employees.

It is very possible to run a company that looks out for all stakeholders - stock holders, customers AND employees. That used to be the way things were done, and there have been many times in history when profits and ROI were high at the same wages and benefits were rising, not falling.

There's been much talk by some very serious people about the negative impacts of today's severe income inequality on the overall economy.

Yes, there will always be leeches who make poor choices and are a drain on society. I have no more love for them than the next working stiff. But these larger issues can all be discussed without making those kinds of judgments.
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Old 02-16-2017, 06:18 PM   #126
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I'm quite sure there are good folks of every political persuasion who feel that it's morally wrong for MegaCorp to "screw" the employees just because it can.
Different political persuasions would define "screw" differently even though they all say they are against "screwing" and they don't want to get "screwed." Just as they define many other things differently. That's where the politics comes in
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Old 02-16-2017, 06:52 PM   #127
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It's not stealing, of course. Yet, that poster has to tag my post as a 'non starter'! Wow.

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Originally Posted by razztazz View Post
Yes it is. It's weaponizing one's economic position to exploit the other actor. Not a free market transaction
I wouldn't call it stealing. Immoral, unethical, rotten....all of those things, but not stealing.
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Old 02-16-2017, 07:17 PM   #128
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I take nothing away from anybody who said "pshaw!', and recognize that my experience is anecdotal (N=1). However, I did witness 40% of my entering class drop out because of the circumstances I cited.
In July 1976, my freshman class faculty professor who had been assigned to "teach" seminar, a non credit required class, spoke to us during orientation. The auditorium was filled with about 1000 students, anxious to prove their worth to the world. He told us to look to our left, right, behind and in fron.t of ourselves, and that over the next 4 years, only one would graduate with an engineering degree. And he was dead on right.
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Old 02-16-2017, 07:47 PM   #129
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In July 1976, my freshman class faculty professor who had been assigned to "teach" seminar, a non credit required class, spoke to us during orientation. The auditorium was filled with about 1000 students, anxious to prove their worth to the world. He told us to look to our left, right, behind and in fron.t of ourselves, and that over the next 4 years, only one would graduate with an engineering degree. And he was dead on right.
Yep, I started engineering school in 1977. The initial dropout rate at that time was 50%. The 50% occurred during sophomore year, once the initial engineering classes started. Many more dropped out during the following years, including two out of my three room mates at the time. It was brutal.
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Old 02-16-2017, 08:21 PM   #130
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I say engineering schools here are easier than in many other countries. Here, there's nothing to prevent a student from taking fewer classes to take longer to graduate, or to try again if he fails. In many countries, one has to take entrance exams, and they have an entrance quota.

Typically, many thousands of students apply for the entrance exam, and they cull out but the top 1,000 based on the Baccalaureate test grade, something similar to the use of the SAT here, except that the Baccalaureate is a more comprehensive test of Math, Physics, Chemistry, History, Biology, Literature, Foreign Language, etc..., or the general knowledge that a HS graduate should have.

Those top students are then given an exam in Math, Physics, and Chemistry. An engineering school may admit only 50 students for each department of Electrical, Civil, etc...

The nice thing is once you get in, you rarely fail because they say that these are the cream of the crop, and failure would reflect badly on the instructors. Still, a higher standing in the graduation class would get the pick of nicer job offers in the government or industries, so students still try hard.
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Old 02-16-2017, 08:24 PM   #131
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I wouldn't call it stealing. Immoral, unethical, rotten....all of those things, but not stealing.
I wouldn't even go that far.

Are any of us immoral, unethical, or rotten for buying something on sale, or using a coupon, or shopping around for the best deal? IOW, we don't want to pay any more for something than we have to. Employers are the same when they purchase our labor.

Seems like a double standard to complain when they do the same things we do.

-ERD50
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Old 02-16-2017, 08:44 PM   #132
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I wouldn't even go that far.

Are any of us immoral, unethical, or rotten for buying something on sale, or using a coupon, or shopping around for the best deal? IOW, we don't want to pay any more for something than we have to. Employers are the same when they purchase our labor.

Seems like a double standard to complain when they do the same things we do.

-ERD50
I see a difference. Certainly, employers have to watch costs. I was an employer. I could have been more miserly towards my employees, but I wanted them to have a chance at a decent life, and a decent retirement. I took satisfaction from that.

I couldn't look at myself in the mirror and like what I saw if I was knocking down tens of millions of dollars, and my employees didn't have a decent life.
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Old 02-16-2017, 09:15 PM   #133
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I say engineering schools here are easier than in many other countries. Here, there's nothing to prevent a student from taking fewer classes to take longer to graduate, or to try again if he fails. In many countries, one has to take entrance exams, and they have an entrance quota.

Typically, many thousands of students apply for the entrance exam, and they cull out but the top 1,000 based on the Baccalaureate test grade, something similar to the use of the SAT here, except that the Baccalaureate is a more comprehensive test of Math, Physics, Chemistry, History, Biology, Literature, Foreign Language, etc..., or the general knowledge that a HS graduate should have.

Those top students are then given an exam in Math, Physics, and Chemistry. An engineering school may admit only 50 students for each department of Electrical, Civil, etc...

The nice thing is once you get in, you rarely fail because they say that these are the cream of the crop, and failure would reflect badly on the instructors. Still, a higher standing in the graduation class would get the pick of nicer job offers in the government or industries, so students still try hard.
Let us be very clear. In a top ten engr school in this country, the entrance requirements are not for the faint of heart. I can only speak empirically for mine, in the DC-Boston corridor. At that, only for the MS program.

1. Clip level is 600 students in the entering class (all disciplines)
2. Prerequisite requirements. Accepted when they are from undergraduate institutions that rank in a similar tier
3. Recent GREs
4. Non-trivial work experience
5. Faculty assessment about capability to successfully complete the capstone project: a stem to stern design of a system that integrates the various aspects of the curriculum. Some people designed "next gen" auvs and uavs, some designed satellite systems. I designed a powerline comm sensor system to integrate emergency notifications in large-scale developments with municipal/first responder/property management entities.
6. Degree was contingent on academic standing and presentation/defense of the project in an open forum. After an academic defense before the board of advisors.

Candidly, I'm surprised that the attrition rate was (only) 40%. The program brought me to my knees, and I am not generally viewed as a wuss. I still occasionally wake up in a cold sweat at 3 AM, thinking that I've missed a question on a problem set.

My degree is the reference model for "marginal returns", lol! At a minimum, if I get kicked to the curb prematurely, I've got a choice about whether or not to keep w*rking. Although I LIKE having choices, this may have been a tad (err...umm...cough-cough) extreme, in retrospect. The (former) company paid for it. Never could stand leaving money on the table.

Joke was on me.
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Old 02-16-2017, 09:24 PM   #134
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Recession's Mark on Millennials

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I'm not necessarily against raising the minimum wage, but the idea that you're supposed to be able to live off it is silly. Minimum wage jobs are a stepping stone to better jobs. If working at a fast food joint is all you intend to do in life, you have other problems.


Nice attitude. Tens of Millions of fellow Americans work for minimum wage or slightly higher in the service and restaurant industries. For many this is a lifelong career. There's no way I would choose that path, and I earned millions in the Engineering field. But I started at age 15 in those service industries and worked from 15-21 paying my full tuition side by side with with many of those career restaurant workers. They work extremely hard and they provide a service that is essential in our society. It's not like everyone is born with genes to get above a 16 on an ACT test, or perhaps were lucky enough to set aside 4 years for college before needing to earn. There are a lot of variables out there. Fact is, The current minimum wage adjusted for inflation, couldn't buy half what that minimum wage of my era would buy.
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Old 02-16-2017, 10:53 PM   #135
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Let us be very clear. In a top ten engr school in this country, the entrance requirements are not for the faint of heart. I can only speak empirically for mine, in the DC-Boston corridor. At that, only for the MS program...
I am sure that admissions to top grad schools are difficult anywhere. Now they have something to consider: undergraduate performance, work experience, etc...

I was comparing the admission to the undergraduate program at American universities to some other countries. The American high school system has nothing equivalent to the Baccalaureate test in other countries for high school graduates. And admission to American universities is not based on a competitive and objective entrance exam, but on the SAT which is not comprehensive like the Baccalaureate, and an essay and some not-clearly-defined criteria.

I have read of a recent story where a student with a near perfect SAT score got rejected by several California universities and had to attend community college, while his older brother was admitted earlier with a lower score. That's some willy-nilly subjective aspect of getting admission that I never understand.

PS. The confusion came from my use of the word Baccalaureate, which can mean a college bachelor degree. The test I was talking about is the test many countries have that is modeled after the French high school education system, called the Baccalauréat for high school graduates. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baccalaur%C3%A9at.
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Old 02-17-2017, 06:25 AM   #136
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I wouldn't even go that far.

Are any of us immoral, unethical, or rotten for buying something on sale, or using a coupon, or shopping around for the best deal? IOW, we don't want to pay any more for something than we have to. Employers are the same when they purchase our labor.

Seems like a double standard to complain when they do the same things we do.

-ERD50
I would choose a different analogy.

People are not a commodity. It used to be employees were considered stakeholders, along with customers and stockholders.

Think about what the word "company" means. It's supposed to mean people working together toward a common goal. The goal is not only to make money, but to somehow better society and its members. True, you need to provide a reasonable return on investment if you want to borrow (sell stock or attract venture capital) to grow your business. But the goal is supposed to be growing the business, not selling stock or making a few investors fabulously wealthy.

Once your business reaches a point where you can't do it all yourself, you have to hire employees. Your employees become a critical component. They are one of the factors of production. Treat them right and they will treat your plant, your equipment, your finances right. They will care about your product, your customers, your goals. They will make your business strong.

They will reflect back whatever attitude you take toward them. Treat them with disdain, distrust and disloyalty, and they will treat you the same at every opportunity. They may not actually quit in a down job market, but they will certainly not share the goals of the business, and you won't be getting as much value from them.

Would you buy the cheapest machinery, then constantly cut back on maintenance to save a buck? To me, that's a sure sign of a failing business.
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Old 02-17-2017, 06:43 AM   #137
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I may have misinterpreted the post. I took the post to mean "old employees who should get out of the way." Geezer, to me, implies a useless old windbag who spouts off at regular intervals (like a geyser).

And if they are making money for the company, then there's no need to replace them.

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Who says they aren't producing?

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Old 02-17-2017, 07:29 AM   #138
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As someone who has had proverbial chip on his shoulder his entire life, this is a subject dear and near to my heart. I am of genX, and did the CC to University program self funding my degree in 7 years. For many reasons I've always felt slightly behind my pear group. Took longer to get through school, came out in debt, delayed first house, delayed children, on and on it went. With that being said, I do believe that it is much more difficult today, on a relative basis, then it was for my graduating class in 1993, and I thought I had it tough!

The numbers::
Tuition in 1992 about= $15,000
Pell grant =$2300
GS9 Salary about =$32,000

Tuition in 2017=$51,950 3.14 times higher 214% increase
Pell Grant 2017=$5,775 2.5 times higher 150% increase
GS9 Salary 2017=$42,823 1.3 times higher 30% increase

Given the inflation, lower wages, and harder to obtain independent student status (age 27), I couldn't complete school today, without military or some other vehicle to obtain the degree. The schools require financial aid (discounting) to make them affordable.

My daughter much brighter than I got accepted to multiple ivies. During one of the tours the opening line was "let me start off by answering the most often asked questions. Budget $75K per year, no there isn't any aid for academics, and yes on campus housing is required for two years even if you live next door to campus."
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Old 02-17-2017, 08:02 AM   #139
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As a millennial (I guess...) I have a very bright outlook, the more pervasive the "woe is me" attitude the easier for me to set myself apart from the rest of the herd.
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Old 02-17-2017, 08:08 AM   #140
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The idea that one can get a degree in engineering or any of the lab sciences, while working, is preposterous.
Not at all, I did, my sister did, probably 1/3 of the engineers in my jr and sr courses did.

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I read somewhere (no cite - apologies - don't have time to look it up) that the typical engineering undergrad degree in the 2010s era takes six years - not four. I attribute this entirely to the workload.
Seems like more of the "woe is me" stuff... I did undergrad in 4 and MS in 1.5.
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