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Refinancing Mortgage - Appreciate Advice
Old 02-19-2012, 09:39 AM   #1
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Refinancing Mortgage - Appreciate Advice

I am about 3 years into a 5/1 ARM interest only mortgage with 0% down, no PMI, and an interest rate of 5.875%, and am going to refinance it to a fixed mortgage with no prepayment penalty. I did make a principal payment that would have been the equivalent of 3 years of a 30-year fixed mortgage. I just read the nightmare thread of Nords regarding his Penfed refinance, and was considering this as one of the options (although I don't live in Hawaii):

http://www.early-retirement.org/foru...nce-53681.html

How do I go about finding the best deal? I looked up Penfed's rates for conforming 30-year loans:

Rate Points APR
3.875 0.000 4.002
3.750 0.375 3.908
3.625 1.375 3.866

Also looked up a local credit union for its rates:

Rate Points APR Closing Costs
3.625% 2.000% 3.826% $9,125.50

3.750% 1.000% 3.869% $6,425.50

3.875% 0.000% 3.911% $3,725.50

While the points are higher for my local credit union, I'm not sure what Penfed's closing costs would be. I've heard that APRs are not comparable as companies can calculate them in different ways. I also have the holder of my current mortgage and found the name of a highly recommended local mortgage broker, so at least 4 options.

My questions are:
1. Should I just submit applications to all of these places (and join Penfed and this local credit union of my employer) to find out what the exact numbers are? It seems like a lot of work unless I can submit the same information to all 4 without filling out formal applications.
2. Do I tell each one that I am shopping around or does it not matter?
3. Can I buy 1 Fico credit report and send copies to multiple companies so that I would have it for myself as well as avoid a credit pull?

Any advice appreciated, this will be my first time refinancing.
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Old 02-19-2012, 09:54 AM   #2
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Start with the excellent calculators and advice at the Mortgage Professor's site: The Mortgage Professor

What state are you in? I hear good things about Box Home Loans if you are in tehir service area and they are extremely transparent on rate/fees.

1. Don't submit to everyone. Pick a lender and then work with them.
2. They will not care.
3. Probably not.
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Old 02-19-2012, 10:12 AM   #3
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Have you tried Amerisave? We refinanced with them last November and were very happy with their service. We got approval the next business day. Have a fax handy to speed along faxing all your documents.
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Old 02-19-2012, 10:23 AM   #4
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Have you spoken with someone in Penfed's mortgage department? I've done multiple re-fi's and HEL's with them, and always found them forthcoming and pleasant. I don't see why they would be any less nice to a non-member. I believe they would try to answer whatever questions/concerns you may have regarding cost calculations, closing costs, etc.

The drawback with Penfed Mortgage is that they are not the most speedy, efficient crew I've ever dealt with. I envision this little office somewhere in Nebraska, staffed with ladies - men, too! - who wear cat-eye glasses on lanyards, and cardigan sweaters draped over their shoulders.

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Old 02-19-2012, 10:44 AM   #5
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I've been most helped by calling around to several lending institutions in the local area. The focus should generally be on smaller to mid size banks and credit unions.

If you really want to make the best deal just create a comparison table and fill it out: rate, points, loan type, special conditions, closing costs, etc.

It can be surprising what you find. Our last refi was done with a local lending bank that was partnering with a troubled bank that had Federal money helping them out. Then they sold our mortgage off to Chase who is now the servicer. That's fine with us after the deal is done. We got a good rate and terms.

These deals pop up and go away day to day. So you cannot always generalize.
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Old 02-19-2012, 11:32 AM   #6
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I refinanced with INGDirect, it was very easy and I'm happy with it.
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Old 02-19-2012, 11:33 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inquisitive View Post
I just read the nightmare thread of Nords regarding his Penfed refinance, and was considering this as one of the options (although I don't live in Hawaii):
One of the reasons we had such a bad experience with PenFed is because we live in Hawaii. Hopefully their "nationally certified" subcontractors are actually certified in whatever nation they think you live in.

I just had another bad customer-service experience with their CD guys. It's a niche issue (I was trying to open a CD account for my father with me as conservator) but it was so bad that I'm wondering who hires these people. Two isolated incidents, true, but in two widely different parts of the company over a year apart. I'll write it up as a separate post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by inquisitive View Post
How do I go about finding the best deal? I looked up Penfed's rates for conforming 30-year loans:
Rate Points APR
3.625 1.375 3.866
There's a lot of fine print to be read. For example, this rate wasn't even advertised on PenFed's website when we refi'd. Only at the last step ("Choose the type of loan you want") did it show the 3.625% rate & points. Today I'm still wondering if they screwed up their website listings. So it's hypothetically possible that you'll find an even better deal awaiting at the end of PenFed's online application process. When you finish the online application, make sure you have a printout. You may have to provide that to PenFed later if they make a mistake.

You may also have "loan origination fees" of about 1%. So our PenFed refi actually charged 2.375 points, and they later gave back part of that for some reason (online application? auto-deduction of the payment? I forget) to make the actual fees & points 2.125%.

One way to look at the points would be to decide how much more you'd pay over the life of the loan. You pay up front for the 3.625% rate, but you save a lot of interest over the next 30 years. How long does it take to recoup the 1.375 (or 2.375) points at the lower payments? Paying points was a risky business back when rates were 7% and dropping, but today (when rates can't possibly go any lower and this time I really mean it) a few points has a big impact on a 30-year rate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by inquisitive View Post
While the points are higher for my local credit union, I'm not sure what Penfed's closing costs would be.
They're actually pretty good. Most of PenFed's profit comes from that (non-negotiable) 1% loan origination fee. You pay for title insurance, and you could ask the title company to have the insurer re-issue the existing policy at a discount. If you've done business with the title company before then you could ask them for a discount. You may have to pay an appraisal, but if the tax assessment is relatively recent (or if the loan is a smaller percentage of the home's value) you may be able to get that done online or waived. You'll pay some faxing and FedEx and recording fees but they're usually reasonable also. You might get free pens at closing!

The issue with PenFed's closing fees is that they may actually be so low that you get what you pay for. We certainly did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by inquisitive View Post
My questions are:
1. Should I just submit applications to all of these places (and join Penfed and this local credit union of my employer) to find out what the exact numbers are? It seems like a lot of work unless I can submit the same information to all 4 without filling out formal applications.
I agree that it sounds like a lot of work for "good faith estimates". We usually just estimated $2000 in closing costs above & beyond the points & origination fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by inquisitive View Post
2. Do I tell each one that I am shopping around or does it not matter?
They don't care either way. They won't give you a better deal and they won't turn you down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by inquisitive View Post
3. Can I buy 1 Fico credit report and send copies to multiple companies so that I would have it for myself as well as avoid a credit pull?
Nope, they have to show auditors (or prosecutors) that they actually pulled your credit report instead of being misled by a faked one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by inquisitive View Post
Any advice appreciated, this will be my first time refinancing.
1. Deposit the closing funds into escrow at least a week before closing, and put an extra $1000 in there in case the loan doesn't close until a day or two later than projected. Confirm with the title company that they have more money than they need. This way you won't have to scramble to come up with a certified check (or cash) at closing.

2. At closing you may be able to sign up to have your monthly mortgage payment deducted from your checking or savings account. Have your checking-account number and routing transaction number handy.

3. We preferred to close in the morning, ideally the second closing of the day when they're still fresh but everyone's had their first cup of coffee. This gives them the rest of the business day to fix problems. It also gives you the rest of the day to scramble for checks or any other paperwork you may need to resolve. Whatever else you do, try mightily to avoid closing on a Friday. That's just too much pressure. Wednesday is good. Tuesday is even better. Monday's OK if everyone shows up sober from their weekend.

4. This is a huge point: politely and patiently explain to the title company that you're going to read every piece of paper in the 100-page closing document. Tell them it'll take you about two hours, and that you want to be left alone to read and to write down your questions and to check math with a calculator. Tell them that if they sit there, tapping their pens on the table and sighing and rolling their eyes, that it'll take you four hours. In exchange for minimizing this use of their time, ask them to give you the preliminary package 24-48 hours before closing for you to read. They have to have it ready by then anyway, so you're just asking them to share an extra copy with you. Tell them that you'd even take it by e-mail (that's how PenFed exchanges the paperwork with the title company).

Then sit down and actually read the whole thing, making sure that you understand it all. Make notes on your copy. Keep a calculator handy. Google phrases or terms that you don't understand. Write down your questions and get clear explanations from them the very next day. If you're feeling rushed or pressured, just sigh and shake your head and get up to leave, telling them you're sorry to delay the closing but you'll return after you've had a chance to go over the papers with your lawyer. Be polite & patient, but stick to your guns.

If you read the closing papers a day or two before, and have them answer your questions before the actual closing, then at the closing itself you can just check that the stack you're signing is a match for the stack you read earlier.

We saw errors all the time: typos of our names and addresses. Transposed digits. Duplicate fees. The wrong interest rates. The wrong number of points. The wrong dates. The wrong numbers in the wrong boxes. The wrong calculation of accumulated interest before the first payment. Incorrectly establishing holding accounts for taxes & insurance when we'd asked for that to be waived. And so on.

Nobody is trying to be evil. They're just backlogged, rushed, and tired. They'd have to fix all these mistakes anyway when they're caught at recording or at annual review, so they might as well fix them before the closing.

If this is your first refi, consider finding someone in your local area who's familiar with your title company and who can help you go over the paperwork. You don't necessarily need (or want) a lawyer as much as you want a friend, an accountant, a realtor, a mortgage broker, or just someone who's done a few of these. We can write thousands of words of advice on this board but we don't know local custom for your area, and we don't know anything about the title company you're using... and neither does PenFed!
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Old 02-19-2012, 11:39 AM   #8
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That interest rate is pretty bad especially if you borrowed 3 years ago! How did you manage that one? I had two 5/1 interest only ARMs starting in 2006 with rates of 5.375 and 6.00. The 6 percent rate is interest only for 10 years with a reset of the rate on a 5/1 basis. Both of these loans were reset at 2.875 last year. I'm thinking of refinancing too, but I'm going to pass on that for a few years because I think my "reset" rates will be between 2 and 3 percent over that time and I'll probably sell both pieces of real estate that have been financed with the ARMS within the next 2-3 years -- so why refinance?

I'm paying down principal for both of these ARMs (and even the one ARM which started principal amortization is still roughly the same monthly payment now as it was when I first started paying). And if our economy replicates the lost decade of Japan, with interest rates rock bottom for many years, I'm not sure refinancing makes a lot of sense even if I weren't going to unload the property. If you're planning on staying in the property you're refinancing for the rest of your life, it might make sense to kill that horrible rate now. But if you think you might move in the next 3-5 years, I think you should run your numbers with the possible reset rates. BTW, what is the reset rate driven off; if it's one year treasuries like mine, that rate was .12 percent when my rate was reset (first year reset for me is 2.75 plus treasury rate, then afterwards it's 2.00 plus treasury rate).
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Old 02-19-2012, 02:09 PM   #9
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3.875% with no points is market in our area as well.

You can shop around and talk with people without "applying"; I usually shop around until I know where the best deal is and then "apply" once.

On the credit report, they pulled it when I applied and provided a copy to me.
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Old 02-19-2012, 02:53 PM   #10
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That interest rate is pretty bad especially if you borrowed 3 years ago! How did you manage that one? I had two 5/1 interest only ARMs starting in 2006 with rates of 5.375 and 6.00. The 6 percent rate is interest only for 10 years with a reset of the rate on a 5/1 basis. Both of these loans were reset at 2.875 last year. I'm thinking of refinancing too, but I'm going to pass on that for a few years because I think my "reset" rates will be between 2 and 3 percent over that time and I'll probably sell both pieces of real estate that have been financed with the ARMS within the next 2-3 years -- so why refinance?
I thought someone would ask about this. I think it had to do with the fact that I put 0% down and there was no PMI. I do plan on holding onto the property for the long-term so I might as well refinance to a fixed.

Thx for the advice everyone, especially Nords. For those of you that mentioned companies (ING Direct, Amerisave), can I ask what your closing costs and points/loan fees were? I will send out some general inquiries. Box Loans is not in my area.

How does the appraisal work? I thought the loan would be based on my current mortgage minus the principal I have paid. If it isn't, does this mean I want the appraised value to be at least the amount of my current mortgage? Would I have to make a down payment or anything like that?
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Old 02-19-2012, 04:24 PM   #11
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How does the appraisal work? I thought the loan would be based on my current mortgage minus the principal I have paid. If it isn't, does this mean I want the appraised value to be at least the amount of my current mortgage? Would I have to make a down payment or anything like that?
Hoo, boy.

Well, the bank will order an appraisal of the property. They will then offer you a mortgage of 80% of the property value without PMI. If you owe more than that, you will either have to cough up PMI (if you meet the 90 or 95% LTV limit) or you will have to pay up the cash to bring down your loan balance to the point where they will refinance your loan. Any idea what the property is worth in the market right now?

They don't care how much you have paid toward your current loan.
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Old 02-19-2012, 05:21 PM   #12
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The drawback with Penfed Mortgage is that they are not the most speedy, efficient crew I've ever dealt with. I envision this little office somewhere in Nebraska, staffed with ladies - men, too! - who wear cat-eye glasses on lanyards, and cardigan sweaters draped over their shoulders.

Amethyst
When we refinanced our WA home they were in a little office in Eugene, OR.

My impression was that they were understaffed and used antiquated fax machines. However, that was ~ 8 years ago.
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Old 02-19-2012, 07:54 PM   #13
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How does the appraisal work? I thought the loan would be based on my current mortgage minus the principal I have paid. If it isn't, does this mean I want the appraised value to be at least the amount of my current mortgage? Would I have to make a down payment or anything like that?
It's due diligence. A guy visits your house, takes lots of photos, and checks that the dimensions/rooms match the govt's GIS plans. They make sure the material condition is decent (no electrical fires or flooded rooms) and that the house has been maintained (good roof, adequate paint). They don't care about decor or cleanliness-- just the bones & skin of the house.

Then they look at similar homes in your neighborhood that have sold within the last few months, and adjust any differences to synthesize an idea of what your home would sell for.

You can make life easier for the appraisers by giving them a CD of any photos you may have (that'll save about 20 minutes). You could also give them a floorplan with dimensions and labels on it, which will save them drawing time. They may also want to know the dimensions of the lot, especially if your lot is significantly bigger/smaller than the typical neighborhood homes.

You want to have the mortgage be no more than 80% of the value of the home. Or, from your perspective, you want the appraisal to be 125% of the principal balance of the mortgage. If the appraiser's numbers don't come in at least that amount then you start shoveling buckets of money into the refi until you obtain those levels.

Another option would be attempting to sweet-talk the appraiser into giving you at least a specific number. It's considered acceptable to say something like "Golly, I sure hope your appraisal comes in at least $125,500 so that I can get that 80% refi interest rate!" However in most areas of the country it's considered crossing the line if you say "Golly, I sure hope this envelope of $5000 cash on the kitchen table will help your appraisal come in at least $125,500!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brat View Post
When we refinanced our WA home they were in a little office in Eugene, OR.
My impression was that they were understaffed and used antiquated fax machines. However, that was ~ 8 years ago.
I called that Eugene phone number last week and got the exact same impression. The guy actually argued with me, too-- he thinks a conservator and a guardian are the same thing, or at least the courts don't care.
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Old 02-19-2012, 08:25 PM   #14
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Hoo, boy.

Well, the bank will order an appraisal of the property. They will then offer you a mortgage of 80% of the property value without PMI. If you owe more than that, you will either have to cough up PMI (if you meet the 90 or 95% LTV limit) or you will have to pay up the cash to bring down your loan balance to the point where they will refinance your loan. Any idea what the property is worth in the market right now?

They don't care how much you have paid toward your current loan.
I think 80% of the current value would cover the remainder of my mortgage. I will find out when the appraisal is done. Have sent out a couple inquiries today to compare rates. Thx for the tips Nords, I will think about having the floor plan and photos, also will make sure I read the refinance document carefully.
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Old 05-08-2012, 04:45 PM   #15
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I got denied by Penfed due to a weird rule they had (apparently they have to follow Fannie Mae guidelines) on calculating income. I called another credit union and explained my situation and I'm pretty sure I will be able to refinance. But looking more online I found aimloan.com. By far the lowest rate but I am skeptical. I also entered my info on the mortgage professor's site (thanks brewer) and it gives Amerisave and Goodmortgage.com, and it seems like the fees are lower with goodmortgage.com.

Anyone have experience with www.aimloan.com or www.goodmortgage.com?
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Old 05-08-2012, 08:04 PM   #16
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i recently was rejected for a refinance of my home loan by a company called Embrace Home Loans. They sent me something in the mail, so I called them. Apparently my income to debt ratio was about seventeen points too high. I could pay off some debt or pick up some interest income and probably make the cut. But what's interesting to me is that I've never missed a mortgage payment in 36 years. Income the last five or six years was lower than my present income (due to starting company pension.) Yet, I didn't make the cut. I've been through this before with loan companies. They do not understand, or choose to ignore, cash flow associated with income property. They only look at debt:income...period. It's funny. I could go get a job long enough to "qualify" for the loan, then quit and everyone would be as happy as a clam. If anyone is about to retire, be sure to get that loan before you quit.
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Old 05-08-2012, 08:54 PM   #17
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I got denied by Penfed due to a weird rule they had (apparently they have to follow Fannie Mae guidelines) on calculating income. I called another credit union and explained my situation and I'm pretty sure I will be able to refinance. But looking more online I found aimloan.com. By far the lowest rate but I am skeptical. I also entered my info on the mortgage professor's site (thanks brewer) and it gives Amerisave and Goodmortgage.com, and it seems like the fees are lower with goodmortgage.com.

Anyone have experience with www.aimloan.com or www.goodmortgage.com?
I did my 2009 refi through AIM Loan and got the web-quoted rate and costs. I thought they were very good. The word on the web at that time was that they sort of cherry picked their customers. You may need a pristine credit report to get their best rate.
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Old 05-09-2012, 09:03 AM   #18
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My second hand knowledge says AIM loans were a good experiance - two of my friends refinanced with them smoothly.
For me bankrate.com found several local companies in my zip code which matched their rates with lower fees.
So I went with a local lender instead.
The underwriter was picky about documents and signatures (needed to re-do few of my signatures out of probably 40 I needed to sign at closing) and closing took slightly longer than anticipated - 25 days with 30 days rate lock - but saved about $2k in closing costs over same rate AIM at that time (Nov 2011).

An example from bankrate:
Mortgage Rates in Atlanta, Georgia by Bankrate
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Old 05-09-2012, 02:03 PM   #19
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..... If anyone is about to retire, be sure to get that loan before you quit.
That is exactly what I did. Refied in Jan 2012 and last day on payroll was Feb 2012.
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Old 05-09-2012, 02:57 PM   #20
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I have done two re-fi's with firstib.com - The first was smoother than the second, which was a little slow. Both times I had to hound them for the HUD-1 as the closing got closer, and the first time there was an error since I don't do escrows.

Both times they immediately resold the loan and the servicing (to GMAC, although I have seen reports that they also resell to Wells Fargo).

Worth a quote.
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