Join Early Retirement Today
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-12-2013, 03:37 PM   #21
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,983
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Also, when someone uses the phrase "societal failure" in regards to why some achieve more than others, that excludes the group in question (the less well off) and essentially says those that have achieved have failed those that have not achieved. Really? I would argue we have a library problem;public libraries are everywhere but I don't see many of the "marginalized" in the library. Others outside this nation laugh at what we define as the "poverty" level. Just my thoughts.
It's all a game. Very few writing or politicking about inequality really give a crap, it is just a convenient and effective way to get what they really want, which is more power, more money flowing through their hands, more taken away from other centers of power like business and private wealth.

Politics and values and "research" into these social questions is about gathering power and influence, and decreasing the funds and hence power available to opposing groups, not about making the socioeconomic system work better.

It is similar to hunting for excuses to start a war; these excuses have little or nothing to do with the real motivations of the war proponents.

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline  
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 03-13-2013, 03:21 PM   #22
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Koolau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Leeward Oahu
Posts: 17,794
Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
It's all a game. Very few writing or politicking about inequality really give a crap, it is just a convenient and effective way to get what they really want, which is more power, more money flowing through their hands, more taken away from other centers of power like business and private wealth.

Politics and values and "research" into these social questions is about gathering power and influence, and decreasing the funds and hence power available to opposing groups, not about making the socioeconomic system work better.

It is similar to hunting for excuses to start a war; these excuses have little or nothing to do with the real motivations of the war proponents.

Ha
I basically agree with this view, but I think I can smell bacon.

If the approaches that have been taken to "cure" poverty had been even slightly effective over the years, we wouldn't still be at roughly (or worse) the same "poverty" level as we were when we started the great society in '65. I don't consider this a political view since both sides "buy" votes (by giving away stuff) when they get a chance to. The real problem is that, while we haven't "cured" poverty, we have gotten ourselves into $16 Tril. debt. I've seen an analysis which indicates that the debt can be equated with the cost of the "war on poverty". Obviously, someone else will say it's the "war on drugs" or still someone else will say it's the "war on foreign soil". So, as always, YMMV. BUT, clearly, we have spent a ginormous amount of money to fix something that either can not be fixed or else the approach was totally as Ha describes it - a power/money grab. Again, YMMV and wake up and smell the bacon.
__________________
Ko'olau's Law -

Anything which can be used can be misused. Anything which can be misused will be.
Koolau is offline  
Old 03-13-2013, 03:32 PM   #23
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
samclem's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 14,404
There was a lot of collateral damage during that "War on Poverty"--The role of the family and especially of fathers was extensively diminished, replaced by a government check. Now we find that didn't work. Kids generally learn about traditional family roles by growing up in a family, so I'm wondering how we pick up the pieces when two generations of kids grew up without a dad. I'll bet there will be a helpful government program to fix the new problem.
samclem is offline  
Old 03-13-2013, 03:49 PM   #24
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
bUU's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Georgia
Posts: 2,240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koolau View Post
If the approaches that have been taken to "cure" poverty had been even slightly effective over the years, we wouldn't still be at roughly (or worse) the same "poverty" level as we were when we started the great society in '65.
The definition of poverty had to change - to become more compassionate and therefore more inclusive - in order for that claim to hold water. The reality is that poverty had been greatly relieved during the period from the Great Society well into the 1970s, and it was only the 1980s that slowed the progress, and then reversed it, as the effect of skyrocketing economic inequity started taking its toll on the constructive efforts in that regard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem View Post
There was a lot of collateral damage during that "War on Poverty"--The role of the family and especially of fathers was extensively diminished
What do you suggest? How would you remedy the damage before pulling the rug out under the safety net in place, allegedly to guard against the negative impact of the damage you highlight?
bUU is offline  
Old 03-13-2013, 05:58 PM   #25
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Koolau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Leeward Oahu
Posts: 17,794
Quote:
Originally Posted by bUU View Post
The definition of poverty had to change - to become more compassionate and therefore more inclusive - in order for that claim to hold water.
The definition of poverty had to change to keep the "need" for the poverty "programs" and to provide government workers a job - especially high-paid administrators. Government always needs a "war on (fill in the blank) to justify its ever increasing size. Funny. I didn't know I was "poor" in the 50s, but by any current definition, I was. So were virtually all the kids I went to school with. But, my parents stuck together, LBYM, gave us hand-me-downs, didn't have a TV until 1960, worked 12 hours a day (small business), didn't take vacations, didn't eat out, didn't use alcohol or drugs, and they didn't take gummint hand outs (what there were at the time).

I don't claim to have the answer, but doing MORE of what doesn't work (as we are now doing) seems the definition of insanity. But, as always, JMHO, so YMMV. (Can you hear the sizzle - mmmmm bacon, bacon, bacon.)
__________________
Ko'olau's Law -

Anything which can be used can be misused. Anything which can be misused will be.
Koolau is offline  
Old 03-14-2013, 02:56 AM   #26
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
bUU's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Georgia
Posts: 2,240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koolau View Post
The definition of poverty had to change to keep the "need" for the poverty "programs" and to provide government workers a job - especially high-paid administrators.
You can choose to try to deflect responsibility for the compassionate changes wherever you wish, but you cannot legitimately deny that living in America as a member of the hard working poor hadn't been been improving steadily over the middle of last century, and that there were people who supported those changes on moral grounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koolau View Post
Government always needs a "war on (fill in the blank) to justify its ever increasing size.
Assuming that that's even remotely relevant (and of course, I don't believe it is), better that government be working to make the lives of those less fortunate better rather than working to pad the pockets of rich executives of companies that supply the tools of war against other nations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koolau View Post
I don't claim to have the answer, but doing MORE of what doesn't work (as we are now doing) seems the definition of insanity.
The problem with that logic is that many people - right now, most people - disagree with your sentiment that stopping doing what we're doing now is better than continuing to do what we're doing now with regard to the less fortunate. The medicine may not be curing the disease, but it is relieving some of the suffering, and that's better than just letting the patient writhe in misery.
bUU is offline  
Old 03-14-2013, 03:38 AM   #27
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Koolau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Leeward Oahu
Posts: 17,794
Quote:
Originally Posted by bUU View Post
The problem with that logic is that many people - right now, most people - disagree with your sentiment that stopping doing what we're doing now is better than continuing to do what we're doing now with regard to the less fortunate.
Well, I guess if you and I ever agree upon anything - it will be to disagree. One thing I believe you are correct about. The current "wind" is blowing toward doing even more of what we've been doing for the past almost 50 years. YMMV
__________________
Ko'olau's Law -

Anything which can be used can be misused. Anything which can be misused will be.
Koolau is offline  
Old 03-14-2013, 04:05 AM   #28
Administrator
Gumby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 22,973
And on that note:


Thanks to all who contributed.
__________________
Living an analog life in the Digital Age.
Gumby is online now  
Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Quick Links

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:43 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.