Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Retire early: It's your Duty to Society!
Old 11-26-2011, 05:58 AM   #1
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 10,252
Retire early: It's your Duty to Society!

Here's an inflammatory editorial in the NYTimes about the Superfluous Worker and how to get rid of them:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/25/op...us-worker.html

My conclusion is that it is better to have them retire early than to sell them into slavery, put them in jail, or kill them off in wars.

What do you think?
LOL! is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 11-26-2011, 07:00 AM   #2
Moderator
Walt34's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Eastern WV Panhandle
Posts: 25,299
This is satire, right? He stops just short of suggesting Soylent Green.
__________________
When I was a kid I wanted to be older. This is not what I expected.
Walt34 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2011, 07:04 AM   #3
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
HawkeyeNFO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: 5-sided building
Posts: 1,183
The proposal he offers is essentially more central planning and socialism. May I offer a different solution: new industries based on new technologies that the average person is willing to spend money on. In other words, society could foster creativity and entrepreneurialism, which create new jobs.
HawkeyeNFO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2011, 07:40 AM   #4
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
freebird5825's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: East Nowhere, 43N Latitude, NY
Posts: 9,037
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt34 View Post
This is satire, right? He stops just short of suggesting Soylent Green.
+1
That was my impression also.
__________________
"All our dreams can come true, if we have the courage to pursue them." - Walt Disney
freebird5825 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2011, 08:06 AM   #5
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 10,252
Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkeyeNFO View Post
The proposal he offers is essentially more central planning and socialism. May I offer a different solution: new industries based on new technologies that the average person is willing to spend money on. In other words, society could foster creativity and entrepreneurialism, which create new jobs.
He wrote:
Quote:
New technology and the products and services that accompany it will create new jobs.
LOL! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2011, 08:07 AM   #6
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Spanky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 4,455
Quote:
Originally Posted by freebird5825 View Post
+1
That was my impression also.
Somehow, I did not get that impression. The author simply says that job creation is a must.
__________________
May we live in peace and harmony and be free from all human sufferings.
Spanky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2011, 08:16 AM   #7
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Spanky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 4,455
Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkeyeNFO View Post
May I offer a different solution: new industries based on new technologies that the average person is willing to spend money on. In other words, society could foster creativity and entrepreneurialism, which create new jobs.
Good idea. Low worker dismissal costs and low taxation may help job creation also.
__________________
May we live in peace and harmony and be free from all human sufferings.
Spanky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2011, 08:40 AM   #8
Administrator
MichaelB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 40,585
Mr. Gans gives us a random list of factors that contribute to the high number of unemployed people in the US. He projects these into the future, leading (of course) to a grim outlook. He proposes that an industrial policy with specific focus on employment would change that and lead to a much rosier future, and this improved outcome would be well worth the cost. It is an op-ed with no data, just his highly qualified opinion.
MichaelB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2011, 09:08 AM   #9
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NC
Posts: 21,204
Surprising that he'd be given space for a NYT column. The author, a Prof Emeritus of Sociology, might benefit from auditing an economics class at Columbia. A few examples, italics added...
Quote:
AMERICA, like other modern countries, has always had some surplus workers — people ready to work but jobless for extended periods because the “job creators,” private and public, have been unable or unwilling to create sufficient jobs.
Quote:
America will have to finally get serious about preserving and creating jobs — and on a larger, and more lasting, scale than Roosevelt’s New Deal. Private enterprise and government will have to think in terms of industrial policy, and one that emphasizes labor-intensive economic growth and innovation. Reducing class sizes in all public schools to 15 or fewer would require a great many new teachers even as it would raise the quality of education.

In the long run, reducing working time — perhaps to as low as 30 hours a week, with the lost income made up by unemployment compensation — would lead to a modest increase in jobs, through work sharing. New taxes on income and wealth are unavoidable, as are special taxes on the capital-intensive part of the economy. Policies that are now seemingly utopian will have to be tried as well, and today’s polarized and increasingly corporate-run democracy will have to be turned into a truly representative one.
__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 50% equity funds / 45% bonds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 1.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2011, 09:14 AM   #10
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
nun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,872
There's an element of satire, but he's pointing out the malthusian possibilities inherent in the capitalist push for greater productivity. If capitalism is allowed to produce profit for shareholders without consideration for society as a whole we'll be looking at "Soylent Green" at some point. The laissez faire of the advocates of Hayek says that Government has no part in directing the economy or spurring job and economic growth. That is wrong; a mixed economy is the best way to balance the needs of all. It's certainly better than just letting the likes of BP run the country.
__________________
“So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.”

Current AA: 75% Equity Funds / 15% Bonds / 5% Stable Value /2% Cash / 3% TIAA Traditional
Retired Mar 2014 at age 52, target WR: 0.0%,
Income from pension and rent
nun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2011, 10:03 AM   #11
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
ls99's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 6,499
Did he mean this sort of ER?

Back To Cartoons Gallery




__________________
There must be moderation in everything, including moderation.
ls99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2011, 10:27 AM   #12
Moderator Emeritus
Nords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,856
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB View Post
Mr. Gans gives us a random list of factors that contribute to the high number of unemployed people in the US. He projects these into the future, leading (of course) to a grim outlook. He proposes that an industrial policy with specific focus on employment would change that and lead to a much rosier future, and this improved outcome would be well worth the cost. It is an op-ed with no data, just his highly qualified opinion.
About all I can conclude from this article is that Mr. Gans made his deadline, and even that may be speculative...
__________________
*

Co-author (with my daughter) of “Raising Your Money-Savvy Family For Next Generation Financial Independence.”
Author of the book written on E-R.org: "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement."

I don't spend much time here— please send a PM.
Nords is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2011, 10:29 AM   #13
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
nun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,872
Quote:
Originally Posted by ls99 View Post
Did he mean this sort of ER?

Back To Cartoons Gallery




Maybe, unfortunately a third of these folks are uninsured
__________________
“So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.”

Current AA: 75% Equity Funds / 15% Bonds / 5% Stable Value /2% Cash / 3% TIAA Traditional
Retired Mar 2014 at age 52, target WR: 0.0%,
Income from pension and rent
nun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2011, 10:34 AM   #14
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
obgyn65's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: midwestern city
Posts: 4,061
I agree with the quote "New taxes on income and wealth are unavoidable, as are special taxes on the capital-intensive part of the economy." As mentioned on this website in the past, I would be ok to pay more taxes provided they are directed to more social causes, including universal healthcare, better access to contraception, extended benefits for women and men with young children, etc.

I realize many here will not agree with me.
__________________
Very conservative with investments. Not ER'd yet, 48 years old. Please do not take anything I write or imply as legal, financial or medical advice directed to you. Contact your own financial advisor, healthcare provider, or attorney for financial, medical and legal advice.
obgyn65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2011, 11:29 AM   #15
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
nun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,872
Quote:
Originally Posted by obgyn65
I agree with the quote "New taxes on income and wealth are unavoidable, as are special taxes on the capital-intensive part of the economy." As mentioned on this website in the past, I would be ok to pay more taxes provided they are directed to more social causes, including universal healthcare, better access to contraception, extended benefits for women and men with young children, etc.

I realize many here will not agree with me.
+1 but I wouldn't make then contingent on where they would be directed. The spending priorities should be decided by our representatives.
__________________
“So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.”

Current AA: 75% Equity Funds / 15% Bonds / 5% Stable Value /2% Cash / 3% TIAA Traditional
Retired Mar 2014 at age 52, target WR: 0.0%,
Income from pension and rent
nun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2011, 11:33 AM   #16
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
ziggy29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: North Oregon Coast
Posts: 16,483
Absent the "Soylent Green" or "Logan's Run" scenarios here, the way I see it is this: there's going to be a certain amount of social safety net spending on senior entitlements (including those that facilitate retirement) and the same for unemployment benefits and the other things (food stamps, Medicaid et al) that come with them.

If I'm going to spend the same amount on either retirement/old age benefits or unemployment benefits, I'd rather help someone older retire and free up a job for someone collecting unemployment than to force an elderly person to work until they drop dead while younger folks can't find work. Seems to me we improve the lot for two households for not much difference in overall social spending.

Again, this assumes there's going to be some social spending one way or the other.
__________________
"Hey, for every ten dollars, that's another hour that I have to be in the work place. That's an hour of my life. And my life is a very finite thing. I have only 'x' number of hours left before I'm dead. So how do I want to use these hours of my life? Do I want to use them just spending it on more crap and more stuff, or do I want to start getting a handle on it and using my life more intelligently?" -- Joe Dominguez (1938 - 1997)
ziggy29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2011, 01:12 PM   #17
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 10,252
I am reminded of places that are less productive and require more people to do the same thing that we do in the USA. For example, in China you might have 100 men on a road crew digging and moving dirt since there would be no buildozers nor backhoes. In South Africa, you pay a tip to someone to make sure you can back out of your parking space (and that your car is not scratched while you are parked). Maybe he is waxing nostalgic about gas station attendants, restroom attendants, yard men, maids, those homeless folks who cleaned your windshields in Manhattan, and all kinds of other menial service folk.
LOL! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2011, 01:55 PM   #18
Moderator Emeritus
M Paquette's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Portland
Posts: 4,946
Ah, for the good old days, when we could count on grinding poverty and wars to reduce the surplus population.
:face palm:

I really hope that article was satire, although I know there is a small portion of our society that actually believes in the above.
M Paquette is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2011, 02:51 PM   #19
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
nun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,872
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Paquette View Post
Ah, for the good old days, when we could count on grinding poverty and wars to reduce the surplus population.
:face palm:

I really hope that article was satire, although I know there is a small portion of our society that actually believes in the above.
I think the author is pointing out the amorality of capitalism and it's focus on profit sometimes at the expense of people. He's not suggesting we return to the "good old days", just that the some of the factors that contributed to the success of 20th century capitalism are no longer in effect. Capitalism provides excellent outcomes for many, but we must temper it so that is does not destroy a significant number of people. I'm always confused when people who proclaim themselves Christian take the opposite point of view, it's one of those "What would Jesus do" moments.
__________________
“So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.”

Current AA: 75% Equity Funds / 15% Bonds / 5% Stable Value /2% Cash / 3% TIAA Traditional
Retired Mar 2014 at age 52, target WR: 0.0%,
Income from pension and rent
nun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2011, 03:00 PM   #20
Moderator Emeritus
W2R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 47,473
From the article,
Quote:
When the jobless recovery ends and the economy is restored to good health, today’s surplus will be reduced.
I am proud to announce that I retired two years ago, leaving my job open and available for the first qualified person to come along. (It took over a year of constant advertising by my agency before anybody qualified did apply.)

Now, instead of hogging a job that others need, I am patriotically contributing to the economic health of our country by spending more in retirement than I did while working.

Do I get a medal or something? I'm waiting excitedly for it.
__________________
Already we are boldly launched upon the deep; but soon we shall be lost in its unshored, harbourless immensities. - - H. Melville, 1851.

Happily retired since 2009, at age 61. Best years of my life by far!
W2R is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Beware of Paying Your Mortgage Early tangomonster FIRE and Money 25 10-07-2011 04:24 PM
Your Age, Race/Ethnicity, Plan to retire? Retired? Etc. ER Man Other topics 111 10-04-2011 09:19 AM
Will I Ever Be Able To Retire Early? nico08 FIRE and Money 28 09-20-2011 05:11 AM
Early retirement penalties? lacawac FIRE and Money 18 09-15-2011 07:22 PM

» Quick Links

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:23 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.