Retirement Cars

[Bestwifeever]

Is it ok to have computers or t-shirts made abroad as long as cars are made domestically? I didn't differentiate- I am an advocate of strong (not exclusive ) domestic manufacturing of all products.

Good luck with that (look for the "made in China" label on everything except cars, pretty much).

 

[FinanceDude]

Good luck with that (look for the "made in China" label on everything except cars, pretty much).

Global supply and demand has spoken.........folks are NOT willing to pay 30-40% more for a US product........

 

[W2R]

Questioning one's patriotism based on the car someone chooses to drive is pretty shallow..........

I love and cherish our free country, including the freedom to participate in its capitalist economy. Personally I think it's patriotic for me to follow the free market in choosing my purchases. That's how capitalism works. If I want to buy foreign knock-offs at Big Lots, I can do it. If I want to go to a posh department store or one that advertises "All American", I can do that, too. Enjoying my freedoms makes me feel happy and is not something I should feel bad about!

 

[Lsbcal]

Want2retire, I think you should run for public office. Well done reply! ...and I was about to unsubscribe from this thread.

 

[Bestwifeever]

Global supply and demand has spoken.........folks are NOT willing to pay 30-40% more for a US product........

More importantly, maybe, corporations (in which we invest for our retirement) are bound to their investors to enhance the bottom line--manufacturing products in China generally produces a greater profit.

Back to the OP re retirement cars, sort of . We owned two Dodge Caravans when we were in the market for that kind of car (Chrysler and its shareholders were well-rewarded for finding and developing this market. Our two cars didn't have a stellar record but were good enough). Pick-up trucks seem to be mostly American-made or at least American-labelled. For our retirement car we will probably go to an American-labelled car, since our small-town destination is 50 miles away from a non-American-car dealer and we'll want to buy the car in the town as well as having it serviced there. DH would love a pick-up truck. Mileage won't be an issue.

 

[Khan]

Which is more 'American'?

A Honda built in Ohio, or a Chevy built in Mexico?

I like small efficient cars; if The Big Three want me to buy their cars, they should build small, efficient cars.

My previous car was a Ford Festiva (a Mazda built in Korea), it lasted 18 years; was it 'American' or 'foreign'?

 

[Westernskies]

OK here goes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigwonderfulwyoming
I have been gritting my teeth reading thru the responses to this post. Never have I seen such a Nippon love-fest. We do still have a domestic auto industry folks, and they are turning out a decent product. Don’t just take my word for it- go look !



I've looked, bought several, and PAID a heavy price to "buy American". I now own two Hondas, the FIRST import cars I have bought since 1986........ Know what?, I haven't had any "mysterious" $500-$1000 repairs..........

I haven't had any mysterious repairs on the domestic cars I have owned, either. Just routine maintenance. And there is no doubt the Americans are producing better quality cars than they were a few years ago.



Quote:
The big three are struggling, no doubt – some of it self-inflicted, but the biggest problem is subsidized imports.

No, the Big Three decided that the American people were stupid, would buy a subpar product forever, buy a new one every three years on some perceived sense of loyalty, and life would carry on.

Interesting opinion, but I respectfully disagree. I don't think that most American companies perceive their customers as stupid people. I don't know what the anticipated replacement lifecycle is in the auto industry , but I bet it is a lot longer than 3 years.



Quote:
The loss of well-paying manufacturing jobs (auto, supply chain, steel, engineering, etc.) is a serious threat to our long term economic well-being. Manufacturing is what built the US economy. (look at what is going on in China, Mexico, India, etc today) I have traveled extensively around the world selling specialized manufacturing machinery, and have observed first-hand how desperate developing countries are to get their products into our market, while simultaneously shielding their domestic market from US imports. Our open-door trade policies are too one-sided, and are eroding the backbone of our long-term economic well-being.


That could very well be, but from what I understand, the US STILL is the big dog for highly specialized manufactured goods. When is comes to high tolerance, highly complicated manufacturing processes, China, India, Pakistan and Korea can't compete. Granted, the cheap stuff is made overseas, but it's not like there's a bunch of 10-ton gears made in China that Harley-Davidson or GE is going to put in their plants.........

I am in a "high tolerance, highly complicated" specialty machinery manufacturing business- and we are starting to see imports from Asia coming into this country- with absolutely no respect for intellectual property, finished part quality, or service- just knockoffs at lower prices. In some case they are offering completed products for less money than I can purchase the raw materials. Sure looks like the proverbial turtle on a fencepost to me.



Quote:
I realize that the Japanese automakers are now “building” cars here- but only to appease the uninformed consumer-primarily with imported parts manufactured in low-cost labor markets. Pouring our hard-earned money into the Japanese (or Korean or Chinese) auto economy isn’t doing a damn thing to help grow the US economy, fund our ever-increasing social programs, or ensure your retirement benefits will be viable over your lifetime.


Fact remains, those cars ARE more reliable than the American cars. I'll give you that EARLY results from the Ford Fusion and Chevy Malibu look promising, but Honda and Toyota BUILT their market share through fuel efficient small cars, and it will be difficult to fight back.......

Fact is that American cars are getting better.

Fact is that Honda, Toyota and Nissan all jumped into offering bigger vehicles- ie SUV's and trucks, which is what the American consumers demanded when gas was cheap.

I will agree with you that it will be difficult for the American manufacturers to to fight back- especially with high legacy costs and $30/hr labor.


Quote:
Until the US consumer wakes up and realizes we need to support our own manufacturing economy first, they better hope that Honda and Toyota are going to step in and take care of their kids retirement programs- because an economy based on us selling hamburgers to one another isn’t sustainable over time.


Tell me HOW it's Toyota and Honda's fault that The Big Threee committed themselves to unsustainable benefit programs for their workers??

I would respectfully ask those retired UAW workers on this board to answer that question. Also, anyone on this board have any idea what kind of lucrative retirement programs the foreign manufacturers who are building cars here in the US are offering American workers? Surely they are exactly the same as the Big Three, or the UAW and American public would be outraged...


Quote:
You can’t evaluate a new car purchase strictly with your computer- go test drive a new Chevy, Ford, or Dodge product. Objectively compare it with the imports. You will be surprised how far the US automakers have come- The new Malibu is a case in point-competition is a good thing- buy something with an extended warranty if that gives you sense of financial security. There are some tremendous deals to be had right now- as in rebates, 0% financing, etc. Quit listening to 10 year-old rhetoric from your latte-slurping liberal yuppie neighbors about how they will never buy a US car, blah-blah, blah.
Quote:
Gee, that poor old Cavalier only lasted 15 years… And I venture to say that many of the people driving imports haven’t objectively compared a US-made product recently.


I have, and chose the used Hondas anyway. If you think the Dodge Caliber is a world class car, you've been hitting the bottle a little early........


At least the damn Hondas were USED. Good call on that. I never mentioned the Dodge Caliber. Someone else is trying to put those words in my mouth. No actually, I am a teetotaler...I think this way stone cold sober...


Questioning one's patriotism based on the car someone chooses to drive is pretty shallow..........

I never questioned anyone's patriotism- just expressing my own unwavering support for the good old USA- and hoping that a lot of other people will consider the effect their purchasing decisons have on our economy, our neighbors, and each other. . . whether they are purchasing cars, t-shirts, or computers.


Mark Twain:
Each man must for himself alone decide what is right and what is wrong, which course is patriotic and which isn't. You cannot shirk this and be a man. To decide against your conviction is to be an unqualified and excusable traitor, both to yourself and to your country, let me label you as they may.

Think globally, buy locally.



Hope this sklllfully and artfully answers your questions. If you respond, please turn off all the different smiley faces- they make it appear that you have multiple personalities...

 

[Bestwifeever]

Which is more 'American'?

A Honda built in Ohio, or a Chevy built in Mexico?

I like small efficient cars; if The Big Three want me to buy their cars, they should build small, efficient cars.

My previous car was a Ford Festiva (a Mazda built in Korea), it lasted 18 years; was it 'American' or 'foreign'?

Lucky you! We bought the opposite car (a "foreign" car built in Kenosha) with horrible results in the mid-80s--the Renault Alliance, built by AMC. From Wikipedia: "The 1986 Consumer Reports "Annual Auto Issue" surveyed owners after five years of ownership. The 1983 Renault Alliance scored in worst ratings in "Engine", "Clutch", "Driveline", "Engine cooling", "Suspension", "Exhaust system", "Automatic transmission" and "Manual transmission" ratings." (It would have scored last in "stalling while driving on the Interstate" too.)

 

[rs0460a]

Which is more 'American'?

A Honda built in Ohio, or a Chevy built in Mexico?

IMHO, I look where the "profit" is sent.

A Volvo S60, S80, etc is built in Sweden but the profit goes to Ford (U.S. Company).

For Sabb, the same thing. Profit goes back to G.M. in the U.S.

My Mustang was built in Mexico. Profit to Ford in the U.S.

How about heavy trucks? Mack was U.S. owned many years ago. In the '90's, profits went back to France. In the 2000's they go to Sweden (Owned by Volvo AB - not to be confused with Ford's ownership of the "car side").

Where vehicles are built, they provide local jobs and help support the local economy. However, profits (and impacts to your ownership via an ADR for foreign company's) and the price you pay for a new vehicle do matter (does not apply for used vehicles).

Honda America is "owned" by a foreign country. Your purchase of a new car/truck represents "profit" being sent to a country other than the U.S.

Does it bother you? Only you can answer that question.

- Ron

 

[W2R]

Want2retire, I think you should run for public office. Well done reply! ...and I was about to unsubscribe from this thread.

Aw, thanks! What a nice compliment. I really do love my country, and although I'm not cut out for politics maybe after ER I could volunteer to work at polling places or some such thing.

 

[Westernskies]

The likelihood that my grandkids will be working in any kind of manufacturing effort is approximately nil. Nor are they terribly likely to be flipping burgers or stocking shelves. Like most Merkins of their day, they will very likely have advanced degrees and specialized skills that will be used to participate in whatever passes for the service economy at that date.

Here's what I don't get about the "Buy Merkin - its your patriotic duty" adttitude: do these people not understand that most manufacturing jobs are relatively low value-added and relatively open to competition around the globe? We shouldn't want to protect inefficient industries or encourage our labor force to cling to low value-added jobs. We should be encouraging growth of our most productive, most competitive industries and helping our labor force constantly upgrade its skills to stay at the peak of the competition in high value added industries.

If you slip into the protectionist cesspool, the protected companies do the same thing they always do: change little if at all, pump up executive compensation, and focus on milking the protection for excess profits and lobbying against efforts to take the protection away. Instead, the best thing to do is open these industries to competition, since it forces the domestic firms to become efficient/productive, or they close and the resources thus employed become freed up to for use in more productive sectors of the economy.

Merkin? what a condescending way to refer to the hardworking men and women of this country- many of whom are out of work because " I don't worry about where the things I buy come from"

I am glad you can postulate around the concept that all your grandkids will have advanced degrees- the fact is most of the people in this country will not, and will need to be able to provide for their families, too.

What a load of elitist rubbish. Our country now has more people employd in the public sector than in manufacturing- and look where that has gotten us.

 

[brewer12345]

Merkin? what a condescending way to refer to the hardworking men and women of this country- many of whom are out of work because " I don't worry about where the things I buy come from"

I am glad you can postulate around the concept that all your grandkids will have advanced degrees- the fact is most of the people in this country will not, and will need to be able to provide for their families, too.

What a load of elitist rubbish. Our country now has more people employd in the public sector than in manufacturing- and look where that has gotten us.

Yup, Merkin. That's about what most of us are, like it or not.

You seem not to have paid a lot of attention to history. A couple generations ago, most people wouldn't have even thought about going to college for an associate's or bachelor's degree. It was generaly not necessary to make a decent living (in manufacturing) and it was frankly out of reach for the bulk of the population. Now look around: a large proportion of the workforce has some sort of post secondary degree, and a significant fraction have an advanced degree of some sort. There are lots of reasons why this happened (GI Bill, etc.), but the net result is that more Merkins are doing more high value-added work that generally is not manufacturing something. There is more competition in low value added manufacturing from countries all over the globe, so the US economy has migrated up the value chain, which requires a more educated labor force. I see little chance of this trend not continuing, unless the US economy sinks into the muck completely (which is not the case thus far).

We have more people employed in the public sector than manufacturing because a lot of those crappy factory jobs went offshore and were replaced by better jobs - less dangerous, higher wage, higher value added. Naturally transitions like this created winners (the more educated) and losers (the less educated). What does this tell you? The lumpenproletariat needs to go back to school. And lots of people, including many displaced workers, have done exactly that.

None of these trends will be changed by short-sighted appeals to a strange flavor of patriotism. The invisible hand is alive and well and it is very effective at prodding economies and societies along. And we should (in aggregate) be happy about that because it furnishes us with an ever-icreasing standard of living (in aggregate).

I understand you are upset about the losers in the game. I lived in the industrial Midwest and have quite a few relatives there. But economics is about as warm and cuddly as a statue of Margaret Thatcher carved out of ice, so there is not a lot of point in crying over spilt milk. Better to get on with life as best we can and extend a helping hand (via retraining, etc.) to those who were left without a seat when the music stopped.

 

[samclem]

I'd be happy to buy a car built by Americans working for an American-owned company. But the Japanese companies have demonstrated for over thirty years that they care about quality--that their cars are designed well, that the subcomponents are high quality, and that the machines are well put together. Detroit spent the last thirty years showing us all something very different.
So, I'll buy an "American car" (whatever that means) when they have a track record of proven quality. I won't buy it based on what Road and Track says. It won't be the folks in GM marketing who bring me to their showroom. It will be the engineers, the component suppliers, and the folks putting the cars together. And it won't be the folks building today's cars--it will be the ones who built them at least 5 years ago--I want to see a record. I've seen too many bits of plastic gingerbread falling off 5 year old Pontiacs, too many faded paint jobs on 5 year old Chevy's and I've rented too many POS Dodges to count.

Patriotism? Get off your high horse. One of the groups that helped ruin our auto industry were the consumers who kept buying the terrible American cars despite their poor quality. Rewarding sloth and mediocrity can be expected to breed more of the same. The lesson Detroit is learning now (or maybe not) could have been learned in the days of the Pinto, the Vega, and the Dart if people had voted with their wallets. Instead, Toyota is now the number one auto maker. Guess why.

 

[brewer12345]

I'd be happy to buy a car built by Americans working for an American-owned company. But the Japanese companies have demonstrated for over thirty years that they care about quality--that their cars are designed well, that the subcomponents are high quality, and that the machines are well put together. Detroit spent the last thirty years showing us all something very different.

Your comment about subcomponents is telling. Having a stake in some auto suppliers personally and via my employer has made it very clear what the OEMs care most about when it comes to their suppliers. It isn't quality.

 

[HFWR]

Global supply and demand has spoken.........folks are NOT willing to pay 30-40% more for a US product........

As energy costs rise, and with the dollar "weak", it could be that this differential will correct. Or not...

 

[BunsGettingFirm]

I'm surprised that so many cars need new brake pads, new transmission filter, etc. before 100k miles. I read my car's owner's manual, and the only that's recommended at 75k are new spark plugs.

 

[brewer12345]

I'm surprised that so many cars need new brake pads, new transmission filter, etc. before 100k miles. I read my car's owner's manual, and the only that's recommended at 75k are new spark plugs.

Brakes depend a lot on how the car is driven. Stop and go traffic wears em out much faster than highway cruising.

As for the other stuff, OEMs write service recommendations to make cars easy to sell, dealers suggest maintenance schedules to rack up the service charges. The truth is probably somewhere in between.

 

[Lsbcal]

....The lesson Detroit is learning now (or maybe not) could have been learned in the days of the Pinto, the Vega, and the Dart if people had voted with their wallets. Instead, Toyota is now the number one auto maker. Guess why.

My first and last big-3 made car was the GM Vega. It actually got a very good review in Consumer Reports the year I bought it. But at around 40k miles the cars starting showing the problems due to the aluminum engine block. I got some good use out of it nonetheless and GM paid for a free engine replacement after a coolant leak led to scored cylinders. Eventually gave it to Salvation Army -- another contribution to the US economy.

My next car was a Toyota Celica and since have stuck with Toyota's.

How is this different from buying both US and foreign stocks? I still buy plenty of US made goods and services. My guess is that I have a much larger spending allocation to US good/services then foreign.

 

[Marquette]

bigwonderfulwyoming, do you sew your own clothes? I assume so since one can't really find any clothes from here any more. Do you ensure that the loomers for the cloth are based in the US? How about the cotton that the loomers use? And the chemicals that the cotton plantations use on the crops? And the laborers that pick the cotton.

I'd think food is just as tough. Some rice is easy to make sure comes from here, but some not so much. My grocery store offers 15 different olive oils... between figuring out if I feel like extra virgin or virgin, and organic or not (not to mention making sure it's expeller-pressed), it's tough enough without muddling through to see if it was bottled here or not with olives from here or not. Don't even get me started on packaged foods!

Seems like it'd be tiring being so patriotic... mostly because I assume you're walking everywhere since you can't buy gas (that could come from places that like to kill us and I can't imagine you can verify country of origin at the pump).

I bought an Olds Intrigue. It had all of the problems that consumer reports said it would. I now have an Accord. It's had no problems. My next car will be a pluggable hybrid. Whoever gets there first with the best product wins (one would think Toyota has the lead, but if GM can get around to that Volt then we'll see!).

Of course, the country losing the most manufacturing jobs these days is China...

 

[M Paquette]

I have been gritting my teeth reading thru the responses to this post. Never have I seen such a Nippon love-fest. We do still have a domestic auto industry folks, and they are turning out a decent product. Don’t just take my word for it- go look !

The location of a corporate headquarters office rarely indicates where the manufacturing jobs are.

Ford to Build Fiesta in Mexico
Ford to Build Fiesta in Mexico

GM - Global Operations - Mexico

1 Millionth Chrysler PT Cruiser Built at Toluca Plant

daimlerchrysler canada corporate - about us - manufacturing - brampton

 

[FinanceDude]

I haven't had any mysterious repairs on the domestic cars I have owned, either. Just routine maintenance. And there is no doubt the Americans are producing better quality cars than they were a few years ago.

Better ISN'T AS GOOD..............still a gap, although not as wide as before. And I will WAIT to see the FIVE-YEAR reliability studies on the Fusion and Malibu before I can consider domestic cars again.........

Interesting opinion, but I respectfully disagree. I don't think that most American companies perceive their customers as stupid people. I don't know what the anticipated replacement lifecycle is in the auto industry , but I bet it is a lot longer than 3 years.

I guess my uncle who worked at GM in management for 25 years was lying to me, then. He told me GM made projections based on Americans buying new cars every 3 years.........

I am in a "high tolerance, highly complicated" specialty machinery manufacturing business- and we are starting to see imports from Asia coming into this country- with absolutely no respect for intellectual property, finished part quality, or service- just knockoffs at lower prices. In some case they are offering completed products for less money than I can purchase the raw materials. Sure looks like the proverbial turtle on a fencepost to me

.

I am sure you have heard of Joy Global, the mining equipment company? They have seen record sales from CHINA and RUSSIA for their mining equipment, WHY? Because the cheap "knock-off" crap they bought broke at the mines the FIRST day they were used. How do I know? One of my clients is retired from being a CFO there...........

I would respectfully ask those retired UAW workers on this board to answer that question. Also, anyone on this board have any idea what kind of lucrative retirement programs the foreign manufacturers who are building cars here in the US are offering American workers? Surely they are exactly the same as the Big Three, or the UAW and American public would be outraged

...

Honda, Toyota, and Nissan DON'T offer such lucrative programs to their workers..........


I don't know how many folks on here are retired UAW workers, but it is an unbelievable benefit plan that is unsustainable. With benefits, the average UAW worker makes $43 a hour. Nice work if you can get it, as long as they keep selling cars and their margins aren't eroded by stupid managerial decisions....oops.....too late for that..........

Keep in mind that UAW workers work at those "Nippon" plants........I venture to guess that most of them drive those very "Nippon" cars you hate, so what's your take on them

 

[pedorrero]

I agree with the consensus on a new tranny for the OP's bomb: Basically, don't waste any money on the old heap, drive it until it croaks. I've been on both sides of the equation, and it's a toss-up at best putting big repairs into an old bomb. While fuel economy is nice, was it a criterion for the OP? I drove a gas-sucking V8 ('73 Plymouth Fury) 20+ years ago, when gas was relatively cheap. Even at $4/gal or more, if you're only driving a few thousand miles a year (not unusual for an old fart -- I had a great uncle who did about 2000 miles/year in his dotage), even a 10 MPG behemoth is fuel economical.

 

[Westernskies]

bigwonderfulwyoming, do you sew your own clothes? I assume so since one can't really find any clothes from here any more. Do you ensure that the loomers for the cloth are based in the US? How about the cotton that the loomers use? And the chemicals that the cotton plantations use on the crops? And the laborers that pick the cotton.



I'd think food is just as tough. Some rice is easy to make sure comes from here, but some not so much. My grocery store offers 15 different olive oils... between figuring out if I feel like extra virgin or virgin, and organic or not (not to mention making sure it's expeller-pressed), it's tough enough without muddling through to see if it was bottled here or not with olives from here or not. Don't even get me started on packaged foods!

Seems like it'd be tiring being so patriotic... mostly because I assume you're walking everywhere since you can't buy gas (that could come from places that like to kill us and I can't imagine you can verify country of origin at the pump).

I bought an Olds Intrigue. It had all of the problems that consumer reports said it would. I now have an Accord. It's had no problems. My next car will be a pluggable hybrid. Whoever gets there first with the best product wins (one would think Toyota has the lead, but if GM can get around to that Volt then we'll see!).

Of course, the country losing the most manufacturing jobs these days is China...

Don't be ridiculous- My point was that, given a choice I would prefer to buy products and services that are US-branded. I realize that this is not possible 100% of the time. So, I do what I can, knowing it is a drop in the ocean. I don't patronize Citgo, rent Asian cars or buy French wines, for example. I'll pay a few $ more for US- branded products. I'll give US manufacturers an edge in my purchasing decisions. Sorry if my interpretation of patriotism has gone out of style- but rest assured, I am not tired of it.

From the responses to this post, I would venture to say that many of you have never worked in a competitive business environment and experienced market erosion due to customers "not worrying about where the products they buy come from" You probably never tried to sell your products into markets with 100% import duties, and then see products from those countries being dumped here in the US below your manufacturing cost. Maybe some of you more intellectually enlightened freelance economists out there can explain how ignoring our GDP and trade imbalances HELPS the bulk of the working class ( I belive they have now been classed as "lumpenproletariat" by the hyper-educated) here in the USA. Explain to me how outsourcing our skilled customer service jobs to India, high-tech aerospace production to China, and automotive manufacturing to Mexico helps the US workforce. I'm not buying it. We are facing an unprecedented affordability gap in housing (ie mortgage meltdown) and standards of living, in my mind due to a lot of former middle-income manufacturing jobs moving offshore or south of the border. What concerns me the most is that many members of the FIREd commmunity are probably retired on $ earned working for US companies who relied on US consumers for their livelihoods, and to fund the retirement programs that make it possible to spend all day posting on this board. But, hey I got mine, right?

I understand the need for education and better-trained workers, and support that notion whole-heartedly. But better-trained and fully employed go hand-in hand. USA Today had an interesting article today on real unemployment numbers, but no one bothered to quote that article; probably too busy gloating about the article two columns away on Ford making the Festiva in Mexico... wonder how many US workers were displaced by that decision? PS- stilll waiting to hear from the UAW contingent on that pesky legacy pension cost question....

As for China losing the most manufacturing jobs, they are probably as concerned about that as we should be.

 

[Texas Proud]

Have not been in this thread for awhile.... but I will throw in a few thoughts...

This past weekend I went test driving some cars... I was very impressed with the Hyundai.... these were crap cars a few years ago... but they saw the benefit of making a quality product like Japan.... so they changed and now are close to the top of best cars...

I have NOT seen much movement from the Fords or GMs and especially Chrysler to improve their cars any more than needed to get them out the door... yes, todays domestic is much better than the POS Cougar I bought in 85.... but are not close enough yet to the top cars... and I did look at my friends consumer report and they had a graph on how they 'age'.... so the domestics age a lot worse than the Japan and Korea cars... and what is even worse is the European cars....

To me, Ford is not for me (but I do have to admit that I bought my BILs after he died from my sister... but will not keep it for long... more of a family thing).... I might buy GM if they do improve... my 95 Monte Carlo has not been to bad over the 13 years I have had it... but it has not been as good as I would have liked....

 

[Marquette]

Don't be ridiculous- My point was that, given a choice I would prefer to buy products and services that are US-branded. I realize that this is not possible 100% of the time. So, I do what I can, knowing it is a drop in the ocean. I don't patronize Citgo, rent Asian cars or buy French wines, for example. I'll pay a few $ more for US- branded products. I'll give US manufacturers an edge in my purchasing decisions. Sorry if my interpretation of patriotism has gone out of style- but rest assured, I am not tired of it.

I'm still confused. My uncle drives a Toyota truck that was built here. My neighbor drives a domestic that wasn't. Lord knows if either of us know where the subcomponents came from. Who's more patriotic? The Toyota buyer kept more jobs in the US by buying a foreign brand but the Ford buyer kept the net profits in the US.

We bought $200 worth of fabric today. We bought from a small business here in the US. The business bought the bolts from a designer in the US. The designer uses a manufacturer headquartered in Europe but the manufacturer's looms are in China. Since everyone in the chain can do business globally, am I doing good by keeping the high-value jobs in the US or am I doing bad by giving business to a European company with operations in China?

From the responses to this post, I would venture to say that many of you have never worked in a competitive business environment

I'm currently training Mital to do my job. Guess what, she's not American and the work won't be done in America. Nor, frankly, do I care.

Anyway, enough with sending this thread off-topic. I'll buy GM when I need a car again if they finally have something that doesn't suck by then (ie, keep on their current path instead of shooting themselves in the foot).