retirement Outside the US More Rhetoric than Reality

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

My main reason for moving abroad would be related to the insane cost of private health insurance in the united states for someone with my 'pre-existing condition'.

On the other hand, the costs of living in British columbia (where I've considered moving) are equally insane, so it comes out a wash financially.

I will say that in my travels to the pacific north west I've really taken a liking to the area. Were it not for family, I would not live in the south. The climate, job market, culture, etc seem more agreeable elsewhere, but that could just be 'the grass is greener' talking.

BC is nice, but most people do not have a prayer of moving there. Canada is difficult to immigrate to.

And yes, it is unbelievably expensive.

 

[Koolau]

I'm certain there are quite a number of expats (or potential expats) who desire living outside the US for cultural, family ties, country of origin, etc. reasons. But, from what I have read and seen, the bulk of those considering the expat life do so for financial reasons (lower health care costs, stretching their US$, lower RE costs, etc. etc.) Unfortunately, many of those advantages (primarily lower costs in total) are vanishing. Yesterday's "hot spot" for expat retirement is becoming almost as expensive as staying in the US (or, more to the point, moving WITHIN the US for the same financial reasons). IOW, downsizing from an expensive US area to an inexpensive US area may be nearly as financially rewarding as becoming an expat - without many of the hassles. Personally, I could cut my actual living expenses (not total expenses) in half just by moving from Paradise to my home town. As always, YMMV.

 

[nun]

My main reason for moving abroad would be related to the insane cost of private health insurance in the united states for someone with my 'pre-existing condition'.

Cost of living and health care are reasons for me to return to the UK. I currently live in MA where the median family annual income is $64k. I plan to return to the North East of England where the median annual income is $35k (using 1.6 dollars to the pound conversion). Housing and food are cheaper and I won't have to pay anything out of pocket for health care. My real estate taxes in the UK will be half those I pay in MA. My national tax bill in the UK on $35k income would be about 13% compared to 10% in the US, but in the UK I have no state income tax to deal with so I pay slightly less total income tax in the UK. However, the UK is far more expensive when it comes to gas and the cost of a car and also has 20% VAT. But overall in the North East of England I can maintain a similar standard of living as I have in MA on about half the income.

 

[ShortInSeattle]

I'm certain there are quite a number of expats (or potential expats) who desire living outside the US for cultural, family ties, country of origin, etc. reasons. But, from what I have read and seen, the bulk of those considering the expat life do so for financial reasons (lower health care costs, stretching their US$, lower RE costs, etc. etc.) Unfortunately, many of those advantages (primarily lower costs in total) are vanishing. Yesterday's "hot spot" for expat retirement is becoming almost as expensive as staying in the US (or, more to the point, moving WITHIN the US for the same financial reasons). IOW, downsizing from an expensive US area to an inexpensive US area may be nearly as financially rewarding as becoming an expat - without many of the hassles. Personally, I could cut my actual living expenses (not total expenses) in half just by moving from Paradise to my home town. As always, YMMV.

My interest in retiring overseas is more for the love of adventure than the cost savings, but I think you bring up a great point. If I was looking for a great-deal financially, moving out to the sticks in my own state would likely accomplish as much as moving overseas. Rents where I live now: $2000+ mo. (2 bed) Rents in rural WA where my extended family lives:$500/mo. for a House.

Granted the job prospects are poor in those low cost areas, but once you're ER that hardly matters.

 

[SpencerM]

When I retire, I plan to spend some time in Western Europe (where I have a condo) and some time in Central America for medical mission work. However, I am still not sure how best I can take advantage of EU citizenship as far as healthcare insurance is concerned. In my case, living abroad when I FIRE is more reality than rhetoric.

Lived in Europe for 4 years quite recently. Healthcare varies alot by country, as does cost. I was able to use my U.S. healthcare plan, overseas (Blue Cross), and they were quite good about processing claims but I had to pay cash upfront. As they direct deposit reimbursements, and take claims via fax, it was fairly easy. If you can get a Schengen Zone passport, or an extended stay Schengen visa, (neither is easy for Americans) do so. Otherwise, plan 90 days max per year in a Schengen Country. In my experience, the country in Europe with the best healthcare is not EU (it is Switzerland) and virtually impossible to immigrate to. However if you can get a passport from a EU country, do not travel into or from the U.S. with the other passport - illegal to do so as a American.

Be prepared for a learning experience. Even in the UK, where I went with a family member for some medical care, I was surprised that it did not seem to be at the U.S. level of care.

Many other factors to think about if you are thinking about retirement full time in Europe. In Central Europe things are expensive due to high VAT and low dollar. Unless your retirement in in Euros you will really feel it.

 

[BTravlin]

DW and I are moving to Mexico in a few years. Climate and available activities have a lot to with it. We're sick of the cold, wet, gray winters here. Temps there will range from 65 to 95 and we'll have multiple outdoor activities available just outside our door year round.

We'll be able to live on less there, about $40k per year, so our assets will stretch further. Friends of ours have already moved there and are getting by comfortably on $30k per year but we will do more traveling.

There is good, inexpensive medical care available but we will also maintain health insurance in the U.S. to deal with major issues.

Ready to go now!

Also, regarding the number of SS checks mailed abroad, this number may not be all that telling. Most of our expat friends in Mexico maintain bank accounts in the U.S. and have their SS checks setup for direct deposit. I would think there are many living outside the U.S. who operate the same way so those numbers may be deceiving.

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

BTravlin, methinks you been reading The People's Guide to Mexico.

Where are you planning to try first?

 

[W2R]

My interest in retiring overseas is more for the love of adventure than the cost savings, but I think you bring up a great point. If I was looking for a great-deal financially, moving out to the sticks in my own state would likely accomplish as much as moving overseas. Rents where I live now: $2000+ mo. (2 bed) Rents in rural WA where my extended family lives:$500/mo. for a House.

Granted the job prospects are poor in those low cost areas, but once you're ER that hardly matters.

+1

I think this type of US location could work out nicely for some if they are motivated mainly by a lower cost of living, and if they can adjust. And if they cannot adjust, moving abroad might not be such a great idea anyway.

Some small towns or rural parts of our country, especially in the Midwest and South, can offer savings that may be very surprising to those living a high dollar lifestyle in metropolitan coastal cities. Median income and home values as well as a few other interesting statistics for specific states, counties, or towns/communities are available at State and County QuickFacts

 

[BTravlin]

BTravlin, methinks you been reading The People's Guide to Mexico.

Where are you planning to try first?

No, I've not read that one but will check it out. Thanks

We are moving to Cozumel. Already have our place, know the area well and have a good base of friends established.

 

[NYEXPAT]

Statistically, A far greater % of retired Americans will die in America each year than any other country in the world and approximately 50% of Americans will die within 30 miles of where they were born. So, in theory, I think my chances of living longer are better overseas.

 

[ItDontMeanAThing]

My interest in retiring overseas is more for the love of adventure than the cost savings, but I think you bring up a great point. If I was looking for a great-deal financially, moving out to the sticks in my own state would likely accomplish as much as moving overseas. Rents where I live now: $2000+ mo. (2 bed) Rents in rural WA where my extended family lives:$500/mo. for a House.

+1

Moving out to the sticks in the US would be a harder adjustment for me than living in a foreign country, IMHO. To live in a foreign country I've had to let go of many things both cultural and commercial. It's been fairly easy. Living in US in a different culture than my lifelong comfort zone of Southern California meant giving up things but not having to let them go because it was so easy to rail at the locals and obtain those things by driving back to LA on the weekend.

I heard the term 'fly over country' long before I experienced it. Thought it was arrogant until I moved to Vegas. I kept running into people and situations where I just wanted to shake them and ask 'What planet have you not been paying attention to?'. I can summarize it with a simplistic illustrative example: It's easier for me to live in a place where there is no cheese than in one where the people think there are two kinds of cheese: yellow and white. Though I'm beginning to suspect that having learned to let go of countless cultural assumptions and desires it might be MUCH easier for me to deal with living in fly over country now then it was the first time.

Just to be clear, I'm not judging the people in fly over country. They're living the way they want and it works for them. The problems I had were of my own creation.

 

[haha]

+Just to be clear, I'm not judging the people in fly over country. They're living the way they want and it works for them. The problems I had were of my own creation.

I think you have a pretty simplistic idea of what you are calling "flyover country".

Ha

 

[Mulligan]

+1

Moving out to the sticks in the US would be a harder adjustment for me than living in a foreign country, IMHO. To live in a foreign country I've had to let go of many things both cultural and commercial. It's been fairly easy. Living in US in a different culture than my lifelong comfort zone of Southern California meant giving up things but not having to let them go because it was so easy to rail at the locals and obtain those things by driving back to LA on the weekend.

I heard the term 'fly over country' long before I experienced it. Thought it was arrogant until I moved to Vegas. I kept running into people and situations where I just wanted to shake them and ask 'What planet have you not been paying attention to?'. I can summarize it with a simplistic illustrative example: It's easier for me to live in a place where there is no cheese than in one where the people think there are two kinds of cheese: yellow and white. Though I'm beginning to suspect that having learned to let go of countless cultural assumptions and desires it might be MUCH easier for me to deal with living in fly over country now then it was the first time.

Just to be clear, I'm not judging the people in fly over country. They're living the way they want and it works for them. The problems I had were of my own creation.

I live in the heart of flyover country, and Im not offended by the term. But I never considered Vegas as fly over country by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[MichaelB]

Flyover country is not a negative term as I understand it, it is about the physical attributes of a vast expansion of territory and not the attitudes of the residents. Las Vegas would not be flyover country but due east might.

A comment about attitudes. The people I know that live in areas like those referred are not limited in their knowledge or understand of things like "cheese", they just don't always care about the variety and have other priorities in life. To each their own...

 

[harley]

Living in US in a different culture than my lifelong comfort zone of Southern California

I think the problem is that you haven't tried living in the US yet.

 

[Khufu]

Back to a general comment on the topic at hand, the budgets posted in the forum by expats often amaze me. While individual budget items may be markedly lower, it seems like few if any of them are living on less for their overall retirement expenses than the median income of working people in many parts of the US. I guess they feel they need more than the median lifestyle here, or perhaps reasons other than frugal living contributed to the decision.

A forum for those able to fund early retirement is going to be wildly skewed to the most successful segment of the population.

 

[kcowan]

BC is nice, but most people do not have a prayer of moving there. Canada is difficult to immigrate to.

And yes, it is unbelievably expensive.

The current immigration rules require $1.6 million, split between owning property and a bank/investment account. Also living outside the major urban areas is like living in the US south of midwest, much cheaper.

 

[Bestwifeever]

There's two colors of cheese?

 

[jclarksnakes]

I just finished one slice of white cheese and one slice of yellow cheese. I liked the white cheese better. So there it is, proof positive that white cheese is better than yellow.

 

[MichaelB]

There's two colors of cheese?

Three if you include the color of the holes in Swiss cheese.

 

[ItDontMeanAThing]

I think the problem is that you haven't tried living in the US yet.

Forgot to mention 3 years in Santa Barbara, CA (which is not southern california) and 3 years in Champaign, IL probably because I was a poor student in those days who's needs were few.

I used 'fly over country' to illustrate a point, one I didn't make very well. If one takes an existing set of attitudes, beliefs, behaviors, habits and expectations formed in one environment into a new place one notices the differences, both better and worse. But it's all about the person (unless that person is a New Yorker, then it's all about the new place ;-).

Back when the Brooks Institute of Photography was a first rate school I met some students who hated Santa Barbara and couldn't wait to get out. Also met some who were already trying to figure out how to spend the rest of their life there. I prefer Santa Barbara to Manhattan, others are just the opposite. It's about the person, not the place.

The cost of living in 'the sticks' in America may be about the same as living in foreign countries that Americans have found appealing. But cost is only part of the foundation of setting up a new life in a new place. For some people moving to 'the sticks' from an urban or suburban part of the US, the required adaptations may be on par with living in a foreign country.

 

[youbet]

The current immigration rules require $1.6 million, split between owning property and a bank/investment account. Also living outside the major urban areas is like living in the US south of midwest, much cheaper.

Is that $1.6M for a couple? Or would a couple be $3.2M?

I thought there was also a way you could immigrate by loaning about one half $M to the Canadian equivalent of the USA Small Business Administration, interest free, for a number of years.

Would that $1.6M get you access to the Canadian public health care system?

At one time, years ago, I researched the requirements for immigrating to Canada because a friend was flapping his trap and threatening to move there in protest of some USA political situation. I gave him the details just to show him (and laugh a bit ) that the choice wasn't really his and that he wouldn't be going anywhere as he didn't have the required assets. I'm sure my work from back then is out of date now.

I'm a fan of how Canada controls immigration and wish the USA could learn a lesson from them. Australia too.

 

[W2R]

I just finished one slice of white cheese and one slice of yellow cheese. I liked the white cheese better. So there it is, proof positive that white cheese is better than yellow.

Cheese? what is cheese? The yellow stuff is called Velveeta. The white kind is called cottage cheese and goes with canned peaches.

 

[Bestwifeever]

Cheese? what is cheese? The yellow stuff is called Velveeta. The white kind is called cottage cheese and goes with canned peaches.

Maybe "Kraft" is the yellow one here in Illinoise?

Now I remember, the white one is that fancy "cottage cheese" you're talking about.

 

[NYEXPAT]

Is that $1.6M for a couple? Or would a couple be $3.2M?

I thought there was also a way you could immigrate by loaning about one half $M to the Canadian equivalent of the USA Small Business Administration, interest free, for a number of years.

Would that $1.6M get you access to the Canadian public health care system?

At one time, years ago, I researched the requirements for immigrating to Canada because a friend was flapping his trap and threatening to move there in protest of some USA political situation. I gave him the details just to show him (and laugh a bit ) that the choice wasn't really his and that he wouldn't be going anywhere as he didn't have the required assets. I'm sure my work from back then is out of date now.

I'm a fan of how Canada controls immigration and wish the USA could learn a lesson from them. Australia too.

I believe that is $1.6 for a couple. I was on the website the other day and they offered me residence for $800,000. I think that could include a house purchase and a bank deposit. I believe the other permanent residence visa is called an "Entrepreneurship Visa" which may require less, but is currently not accepting applications at this point.