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Old 02-24-2014, 08:43 AM   #61
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Marriage is a legal contract, and there are specific requirements and obligations in California's Family Law code. One is that you are required to shelter, clothe, and feed your spouse--even if your spouse refuses to work. Your fiancé (or yourself), once married, could simply stop working.

While you may grow to love your spouse even more during your decades of marriage, during the engagement is when you are most giddy in love. A prenuptial agreement, crafted together while you both want what is best for each other, is a hedge against future rancor and worries about gold diggers.
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Old 02-24-2014, 09:21 AM   #62
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you both need to agree on how it is structured and what assets will be protected. It doesn't have to include all assets. There can still be some co-mingled assets to add back the romance. :-)
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Originally Posted by Indigo Mule View Post
Marriage is a legal contract, and there are specific requirements and obligations in California's Family Law code. One is that you are required to shelter, clothe, and feed your spouse--even if your spouse refuses to work. Your fiancé (or yourself), once married, could simply stop working.

While you may grow to love your spouse even more during your decades of marriage, during the engagement is when you are most giddy in love. A prenuptial agreement, crafted together while you both want what is best for each other, is a hedge against future rancor and worries about gold diggers.
+1 your plan to put the primary residence into marital assets fits this idea. You could agree to add more over time if that seems fair to you. Or, if you have a mortgage on the primary residence, more would be added over time as you pay it off.
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Old 02-24-2014, 09:26 AM   #63
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... she's actually a very successful woman... she's actually very driven.

Anyway, regarding the assets - she owns a house as well, that she intends to rent out (she'll keep in her name as well). Her family is semi wealthy, and when the day comes will inherit a decent amount of money, and this was mentioned in rebuttal to the prenup, that it will need to be protected as well, since I'm trying to protect mine. She's been pretty level headed about all of it, and I really do think she is/was just insulted that I didn't trust her or it could prevent the feeling of a team. I could also be naive, who knows!
Only a gold digging bimbo wouldn't be insulted by a prenup. It questions her intent and implies distrust, classifies her as junior "partner" rather than full. This is further reinforced by you needing to keep her out of your business to keep the separation of assets. The bimbo would still marry you anyway, then use you and your connections as a spring board to find someone else, preferably someone more affluent who would give her a more generous employment contract....err..prenup.

Don't get me wrong, if I were she I would much rather you bring this up now, before I made a commitment to you. It would frankly raise a big red flag regarding marriage and change the way I thought about you, particularly bringing assets of my own to the table, current and future, and having no intent of making you sign a prenup. I some ways, given much of her assets would come to her during the marriage, and most of your assets were prior to marriage, she is the one more at risk.

To me the prenup is more like an employment contract of undetermined duration than a prequel to marriage. Would really make me question if you were just looking to be married to me in my younger years, then discard me for a younger model later. I would probably continue my search for someone as committed to marriage as I.

Hopefully things will turn out differently for you.
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Old 02-24-2014, 10:15 AM   #64
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I would probably continue my search for someone as committed to marriage as I.
Hopefully things will turn out differently for you.
And yet as committed to marriage as you say you are, your first marriage only lasted six years. Sorry, I just don't get where you're coming from.

A smart person learns from their mistakes. A really smart person learns from other people's mistakes. I hope the OP is really smart here.
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Old 02-24-2014, 11:07 AM   #65
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And yet as committed to marriage as you say you are, your first marriage only lasted six years. Sorry, I just don't get where you're coming from.
LOL. And yet, not knowing the facts you are still happy to judge me. At least I am discussing the topic of prenups, how I would react to one, not the people involved who may or may not have a different result. Sounds like she reacted pretty similarly to how I would though. Seemed to me there were enough contributions to the "get a prenup" bandwagon , and the opposing view needed representation.

It's pretty interesting when you go to a marriage counselor and he advises you to run, not walk, from the marriage. When you are in hell, a day can be a lifetime. Frankly it's a bit of a miracle I survived that long, and an even bigger miracle I still took the risk to trust a second time. If you can't understand that, then if you are divorced your first marriage could not have been all that bad. You bet I learned from my mistakes, but the first mistake was not vetting my Ex better, not making sure I had a parachute strapped on me and my assets when the plane went down in flames.

IMO, prenups equal lack of trust, and trust is one component of many that is required for a marriage to work. People have different definitions of marriage. It's important that a couple make sure they hold a definition in common before they take the plunge.

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celebrating 21 years of marriage this year
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Old 02-24-2014, 11:20 AM   #66
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LOL. And yet, not knowing the facts you are still happy to judge me.
When you make statements on a public forum like:

"Only a gold digging bimbo wouldn't be insulted by a prenup"

you have effectively just "judged" and insulted every female who has chosen to agree to a prenup prior to marriage. If you are going to make such radical statements that lump a large group of people into such derogatory status, you are opening yourself up to be challenged and judged.

If you had bad judgment in choosing your first husband, so be it. You're not the first person, nor the last, to pick the wrong partner in life. And while we can hope the OP has better judgment ability to choose his mate, we know that 50%+ marriages end in divorce, apparently because people are not very good at picking the first time around. And if the OP picked someone who turns out to be as unstable as your first husband, then the advice you are giving him will not turn out to be so good. Yet I'm sure you will continue to throw all of this out the window and stick with your position.

As I said, I hope the OP can learn from other people's mistakes.
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Old 02-24-2014, 11:40 AM   #67
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"Yet I'm sure you will continue to throw all of this out the window and stick with your position."

As is both our right. I really don't care if you agree with my opinion or not. It is simply food for thought.
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Old 02-24-2014, 12:03 PM   #68
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When you make statements on a public forum like:

"Only a gold digging bimbo wouldn't be insulted by a prenup"

you have effectively just "judged" and insulted every female who has chosen to agree to a prenup prior to marriage.
Not at all. I would bet that many who wind up signing the prenup were initially insulted by it, even carrying resentment about it into the marriage. I suspect that there is a percentage who walked away from a relationship where they were not a full partner, though others decided the person was worth it.

This seems to be an emotional topic for you. I would recommend reading my comments twice to make sure that your first interpretation is actually what was written on the page.
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Old 02-24-2014, 01:23 PM   #69
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.........Only a gold digging bimbo wouldn't be insulted by a prenup.......... .
So are you saying that my wife is a gold digging bimbo? I think that you owe an apology to everyone on this forum that has a prenup.
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Old 02-24-2014, 01:25 PM   #70
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The "trust" factor can be looked at two ways.

Do you trust me to be fair with you if things don't work out over the long haul between us?
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Old 02-24-2014, 02:02 PM   #71
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The "trust" factor can be looked at two ways.

Do you trust me to be fair with you if things don't work out over the long haul between us?
Fascinating. So you are basically saying "I don't fully trust you but you can trust me."
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Old 02-24-2014, 03:04 PM   #72
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DW and I had nothing to pre-nup , but we do have relatives who use them. Each situation is different and they do have a positive purpose so I wouldn't judge others for considering their use.

It's tough enough to give pre-marital advice to others, doubly so when some have had bad experiences themselves. Folks might want to take a step back and a deep breath, then try to get back to helping the OP.
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Old 02-24-2014, 03:31 PM   #73
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Fascinating. So you are basically saying "I don't fully trust you but you can trust me."
Based on your experience I understand why you are reacting so strongly about this (your unedited post came through via email.)

Please realize there is more than one way to look at this.

I wouldn't marry anyone who asked me for a prenup, nor would I ask someone to marry me if there was any chance I thought I needed a prenup with them. But my values aren't everyone's and I don't expect or insist on everyone to share my views.

Trust is a two-way street and it begins with honesty. The OP could say some thing like this if it is true...

Quote:
Honey, I've worked very hard and took significant risks to achieve my current state of wealth. I did so with the intention of being able to maintain a certain lifestyle for the remainder of my life while I pursue other interests than trading hours for dollars. I'm retiring from working for a living.

I love you very much and am willing to share all of that with you and children if we have any. You won't have to trade hours for dollars either as long as we're married. However, neither of us knows the future, and many marriages don't work out.

At this point in my life, I'm too attached to what I've worked for to risk the small possibility that I do something stupid that ruins our marriage and some lawyer convinces you to take me to the cleaners and I lose most of what I have and have to work for the rest of my life.

Would you trust me to setup some level of prenup that would provide you with a certain level of income so that you wouldn't have to work, but leaves me with enough assets to continue the lifestyle I've earned?

After we've been married for sometime we can revisit it . . . and certainly if we have children I will support them . . . but right now I'm not emotionally ready to go forward without one.

I hope you understand. If not, maybe it makes more sense for us to wait until I am ready.
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Old 02-24-2014, 03:55 PM   #74
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But in her own words, the deal she said, was when we are 75 with grandchildren, rocking on the front porch she's going to make me eat that prenup hah. I hope she's right
Good for her! It sounds like you've worked it out. I'm glad to hear she's successful in her own right too.

Tell her that she may not need to wait until your 75. You might eat it voluntarily when your 45, who knows.
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Old 02-24-2014, 04:00 PM   #75
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Based on your experience I understand why you are reacting so strongly about this (your unedited post came through via email.)
Except the only experience I have, an ex threatening to go after my future income, should put me in favor of a prenup. But I have yet to see a rational approach in this thread to this matter that maintains dignity for both.


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Trust is a two-way street and it begins with honesty. The OP could say some thing like this if it is true...
Sadly your description of what could be said was not quoteable by my limited abilities. It was quite good, and one I would calmly continue the dialog over rather than simply reach out and slap your face for. It puts the weakness on you, opening up the possibility for discussion. Nothing quite like showing yourself in a vulnerable light, particularly if dealing with a woman.

It is also hugely different from what has been presented here so far, which has centered on "I would question her motives, can't involve her in my business, why can't she just trust me...", very me centered and totally ignoring the other person's POV.

I do find it interesting that I have received so much push back on my views, yet no one has come forward to say that their spouse did not have a problem, if only initially, with the concept. No doubt there are a few "enlightened" out there, but even the OP's intended expressed similar views to mine. Words can be interpreted in so many ways. One should think carefully before broaching this subject.
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Old 02-24-2014, 04:30 PM   #76
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Mine didn't. She had far fewer assets, but was quite happy with it. Getting explicit about potential income from her creative assets and ensuring that her family farm would stay in her family regardless were a comfort to her, even though there was a large number imbalance.
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Old 02-24-2014, 04:36 PM   #77
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Mine didn't. She had far fewer assets, but was quite happy with it. Getting explicit about potential income from her creative assets and ensuring that her family farm would stay in her family regardless were a comfort to her, even though there was a large number imbalance.
That's great. I'm glad it worked for you. How did you approach it...or did she? Was it done with the proposal, or as a qualifier after the fact? What generation were you in when you did this?

IP,
finding this an insanely interesting intellectual exercise
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Old 02-24-2014, 04:45 PM   #78
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I do find it interesting that I have received so much push back on my views, yet no one has come forward to say that their spouse did not have a problem, if only initially, with the concept. No doubt there are a few "enlightened" out there, but even the OP's intended expressed similar views to mine. Words can be interpreted in so many ways. One should think carefully before broaching this subject.
My spouse did not have a problem. In fact, she was the one who suggested the prenup. For many weeks, I wondered about how I would broach this subject with her, and then one day in an airport she mentions that she wants me to be sure that she is marrying me and not my money, and would have no problem signing a prenup. We've been married for just over 10 years now.

I don't view a prenup as planning for failure anymore than I view buying auto insurance because I intend to be in a car accident or homeowners insurance because I expect my house to burn down.
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Old 02-24-2014, 04:57 PM   #79
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It wasn't so much approached as just part of the discussion in the same way my being clear that I am planning on retiring much much earlier than most people. I've known that I'd have a pre-nup before we ever met. We've been married for all of about 2 months at this point, but living together for 3 or 4 years.

To be honest, I know a lot of families where it's pretty much accepted that a pre-nup is part of the deal due to inheritance issues (not in my case). In those cases, often one branch of a family carries the inheritance via the oldest, and they are responsible for investing, growing it, and taking care of the rest of the family. There is NO WAY that they would marry without a pre-nup, because they don't see the money as theirs, but just that they are the family caretakers for that generation. They don't have the right to risk it in their marriage even if the trusts would have been sufficient.

My wife actually has more inheritance issues than I do - I might get a little money 20 years down the road, but don't count it and don't really care, but the farm that my wife's parents live on has been in her family for ~130 years. Money doesn't have anything to do with it, it's a family thing. She's also a published author with some partial manuscripts. If we were ever to divorce, it would grind on her to have to pay me part of future royalties on her work - again, not really a money issue but an emotional one.

For my part, I'm not retired yet, but hoping to retire at about 37 or 38. Risking walking away from my career for 10 years and then losing half of everything and trying to start a professional earning career from scratch isn't an acceptable risk. My wife instead has chosen a career (writing and digital creation work) that is lower pay, but much higher freedom and with much longer tail income that would let her work part-time forever and travel, whereas I'm paying my work up front to have full freedom later. She doesn't have any problem with (and is certainly too independant/proud to take from me) my choosing the route to freedom and protecting the result of that long work (most of which pre-dates her entering my life).

She and I negotiated the document (she read some books and wrote the first draft) and we both seperately then talked through it with our parents. Her's are a little mystified about it I think, but she's very clear that it's what she wants. My parents were happy to review it with me, but their only concern is that we are both on board and that it's an agreement, not just either one of us capitulating.
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Old 02-24-2014, 05:13 PM   #80
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My spouse did not have a problem. In fact, she was the one who suggested the prenup. For many weeks, I wondered about how I would broach this subject with her, and then one day in an airport she mentions that she wants me to be sure that she is marrying me and not my money, and would have no problem signing a prenup. We've been married for just over 10 years now.

I don't view a prenup as planning for failure anymore than I view buying auto insurance because I intend to be in a car accident or homeowners insurance because I expect my house to burn down.
Enlightened. And I would think unusual. But as I have said, I have no history with prenups to base that on.

My imagination tells me you had a whole lot of assets on the table for that to happen. But I'm curious, how did it come about that she knew what you were worth? It's not really a conversation we had while dating or even engaged. We talked about debt and savings mentality, he saw me working on my rehab and telling him that if he wanted to date me he could spend time hanging drywall with me, but we never discussed balances. Just about everything else was discussed, but not bank accounts.
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