Mine didn't. She had far fewer assets, but was quite happy with it. Getting explicit about potential income from her creative assets and ensuring that her family farm would stay in her family regardless were a comfort to her, even though there was a large number imbalance.
Retiring at 32
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InParadise
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That's great. I'm glad it worked for you. How did you approach it...or did she? Was it done with the proposal, or as a qualifier after the fact? What generation were you in when you did this?
IP,
finding this an insanely interesting intellectual exercise
My spouse did not have a problem. In fact, she was the one who suggested the prenup. For many weeks, I wondered about how I would broach this subject with her, and then one day in an airport she mentions that she wants me to be sure that she is marrying me and not my money, and would have no problem signing a prenup. We've been married for just over 10 years now.
I don't view a prenup as planning for failure anymore than I view buying auto insurance because I intend to be in a car accident or homeowners insurance because I expect my house to burn down.
It wasn't so much approached as just part of the discussion in the same way my being clear that I am planning on retiring much much earlier than most people. I've known that I'd have a pre-nup before we ever met. We've been married for all of about 2 months at this point, but living together for 3 or 4 years.
To be honest, I know a lot of families where it's pretty much accepted that a pre-nup is part of the deal due to inheritance issues (not in my case). In those cases, often one branch of a family carries the inheritance via the oldest, and they are responsible for investing, growing it, and taking care of the rest of the family. There is NO WAY that they would marry without a pre-nup, because they don't see the money as theirs, but just that they are the family caretakers for that generation. They don't have the right to risk it in their marriage even if the trusts would have been sufficient.
My wife actually has more inheritance issues than I do - I might get a little money 20 years down the road, but don't count it and don't really care, but the farm that my wife's parents live on has been in her family for ~130 years. Money doesn't have anything to do with it, it's a family thing. She's also a published author with some partial manuscripts. If we were ever to divorce, it would grind on her to have to pay me part of future royalties on her work - again, not really a money issue but an emotional one.
For my part, I'm not retired yet, but hoping to retire at about 37 or 38. Risking walking away from my career for 10 years and then losing half of everything and trying to start a professional earning career from scratch isn't an acceptable risk. My wife instead has chosen a career (writing and digital creation work) that is lower pay, but much higher freedom and with much longer tail income that would let her work part-time forever and travel, whereas I'm paying my work up front to have full freedom later. She doesn't have any problem with (and is certainly too independant/proud to take from me) my choosing the route to freedom and protecting the result of that long work (most of which pre-dates her entering my life).
She and I negotiated the document (she read some books and wrote the first draft) and we both seperately then talked through it with our parents. Her's are a little mystified about it I think, but she's very clear that it's what she wants. My parents were happy to review it with me, but their only concern is that we are both on board and that it's an agreement, not just either one of us capitulating.
To be honest, I know a lot of families where it's pretty much accepted that a pre-nup is part of the deal due to inheritance issues (not in my case). In those cases, often one branch of a family carries the inheritance via the oldest, and they are responsible for investing, growing it, and taking care of the rest of the family. There is NO WAY that they would marry without a pre-nup, because they don't see the money as theirs, but just that they are the family caretakers for that generation. They don't have the right to risk it in their marriage even if the trusts would have been sufficient.
My wife actually has more inheritance issues than I do - I might get a little money 20 years down the road, but don't count it and don't really care, but the farm that my wife's parents live on has been in her family for ~130 years. Money doesn't have anything to do with it, it's a family thing. She's also a published author with some partial manuscripts. If we were ever to divorce, it would grind on her to have to pay me part of future royalties on her work - again, not really a money issue but an emotional one.
For my part, I'm not retired yet, but hoping to retire at about 37 or 38. Risking walking away from my career for 10 years and then losing half of everything and trying to start a professional earning career from scratch isn't an acceptable risk. My wife instead has chosen a career (writing and digital creation work) that is lower pay, but much higher freedom and with much longer tail income that would let her work part-time forever and travel, whereas I'm paying my work up front to have full freedom later. She doesn't have any problem with (and is certainly too independant/proud to take from me) my choosing the route to freedom and protecting the result of that long work (most of which pre-dates her entering my life).
She and I negotiated the document (she read some books and wrote the first draft) and we both seperately then talked through it with our parents. Her's are a little mystified about it I think, but she's very clear that it's what she wants. My parents were happy to review it with me, but their only concern is that we are both on board and that it's an agreement, not just either one of us capitulating.
InParadise
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Enlightened. And I would think unusual. But as I have said, I have no history with prenups to base that on.
My imagination tells me you had a whole lot of assets on the table for that to happen. But I'm curious, how did it come about that she knew what you were worth? It's not really a conversation we had while dating or even engaged. We talked about debt and savings mentality, he saw me working on my rehab and telling him that if he wanted to date me he could spend time hanging drywall with me, but we never discussed balances. Just about everything else was discussed, but not bank accounts.
InParadise
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Well then, how very Downton Abbey of them! Both being from peasant stock, it's hard to relate.
Legacy issues and blood, sweat and tears. To some extent I get that, but how much do (or in your young marriage case will,) you enable her to work on those manuscripts? (Congrats on your recent nuptials, btw.) Don't you think the sacrifice you may make to enable her would qualify you to get a piece of the future pie?
I had to drag DH kicking and screaming to the idea of ER, which we will do much later than you, mostly because we have kids to get out of high school before we leave this high COL. But as a stay at home mom, who left a lucrative career because one of us had to raise the kids, enabling DH to put in the hours he feels compelled to do because he is who he is, (but being salaried doesn't get more money for,) pulling his funds from his IRA CDs and multiplying them significantly through investing, there is no way I would have been able to do that if I was excluded from a piece of the pie, or had to be separated from the assets because of territorial issues. He earns it, I stretch it and make it grow, grow, grow, as well as everything beyond bringing home the paycheck. (And just to put off those "Well, no wonder..." comments, I have often earned more than he with my active investing and have gotten push back from the family every time I have tried to re-enter the conventional workforce. They have been royally spoiled.)
As I said previously, it is all about making sure you both have the same definition of marriage. Whether this is through discussion or a legal document, you can only move forward safely if you hold the same definition in common.
It is interesting to see that this is a recent experience for you, and that you are of the today generation. Don't know that it would have flown well 20 years ago. Perhaps my views are somewhat dated. Best of luck to you going forward. Sounds as though you have a much stronger basis than luck in your marriage.
financeindependenceSmith
Confused about dryer sheets
Continued Financial Independence Success
I recommend that you continue investing in very profitable real estate and also diverse existing profitable businesses. Personally after over 16 years of being a landlord and having numerous ups and downs with rental property, most of it down for the past several years; I decided to invest in mortgage notes and be the bank. With owning notes there are no tenant hassles you just have a servicing company (for a $15 per month fee) collect the monthly mortgage. If the mortgage isn't getting paid you hire an attorney (typically less than $3K total) to foreclose and sell the house to another buyer which makes you even more money since you will be purchasing the note for much less than the full market value of the house and can sell the house or modify the note for a higher price now that house prices are growing again. If you need cash you can always sell the note whether it is performing or non-performing to numerous hedge funds, wholesalers or individuals like myself. [Mod Edit]. Wishing you much continued success. Best Regards, G. Smith
I recommend that you continue investing in very profitable real estate and also diverse existing profitable businesses. Personally after over 16 years of being a landlord and having numerous ups and downs with rental property, most of it down for the past several years; I decided to invest in mortgage notes and be the bank. With owning notes there are no tenant hassles you just have a servicing company (for a $15 per month fee) collect the monthly mortgage. If the mortgage isn't getting paid you hire an attorney (typically less than $3K total) to foreclose and sell the house to another buyer which makes you even more money since you will be purchasing the note for much less than the full market value of the house and can sell the house or modify the note for a higher price now that house prices are growing again. If you need cash you can always sell the note whether it is performing or non-performing to numerous hedge funds, wholesalers or individuals like myself. [Mod Edit]. Wishing you much continued success. Best Regards, G. Smith
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LeavingOhio
Recycles dryer sheets
Kids are definitely expensive...food, bigger home than you would need without them, school expenses up through high school (this is WAY bigger than I thought it would be, even for public schools; if your kid is involved in a sport or band or both - GASP! - be prepared to pay through the nose for stuff). USUALLY when the cost of college comes up, I'm not one to jump on that bandwagon as there are many ways to get through college in a very affordable manner. Many state schools are reasonably priced. If you have a kid that is a top student, full ride scholarships are waiting for them at LESS THAN THE MOST STELLAR SCHOOLS, and if you don't make that much and your kid can get into an Ivy League school or another top notch school, merit scholarships aren't typical, but those schools will meet 100% of demonstrated need (in my case, our HS daughter who is looking at colleges brings schools with tuition, room and board, books, travel expenses and personal expenses of over $60,000 a year all the way down to about $11,500...with a $3500 loan that she will take on, that leaves my wife and me with just $8,000 year to pay; we can budget for that.
HOWEVER, since the man in question has an income and assets that are greater than mine, if his kid eventually gets into a great school, they will pay more than my kid will pay, so for him college might cost a lot.
retiredat32
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Thanks all for all the help. I've got my beach house under contract now for 1.8M, which I plan to reinvest. Any suggestions besides more rental homes? Something safe and that provides residual income?
On another note, the problem with the fiance is still somewhat there. I want to live by the beach, which means away from her family. She's stated if she's going to move away from her family she really wants a nice house on the water like the one I am selling (1.8M)!
Another thing that gets me is she says things like it's smart to sell that house for that much money because then we will have all that in the bank. Then we can go build a new house. I'm all for a partnership once married and such, but there's no we having that 1.8M when it sells. Maybe I'm just reading into statements like that too much. But I am not too interested in throwing away a million plus dollars on building a brand new home in retirement.
On another note, the problem with the fiance is still somewhat there. I want to live by the beach, which means away from her family. She's stated if she's going to move away from her family she really wants a nice house on the water like the one I am selling (1.8M)!
Another thing that gets me is she says things like it's smart to sell that house for that much money because then we will have all that in the bank. Then we can go build a new house. I'm all for a partnership once married and such, but there's no we having that 1.8M when it sells. Maybe I'm just reading into statements like that too much. But I am not too interested in throwing away a million plus dollars on building a brand new home in retirement.
Ready
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Congrats on finding a buyer for the house. That's a big step. As for alternate investments, I'm sure others will have ideas, but beyond either more real estate or some combination of stocks and bonds I don't have any specific suggestions.
Regarding the fiancé, I think relationships work best when both people have the same values regarding finances. If you have a desire to live a simple life in a modest home, you need to be very direct about that with her and see where she stands. You have a challenge in that you have a lot more money than she does. This can create a lot of problems in relationships if not discussed very early on. I think you need to have this discussion and see whether the two of you are financially compatible. The fact that it is still on your mind tells me that it could be a big issue.
Good luck with it.
Regarding the fiancé, I think relationships work best when both people have the same values regarding finances. If you have a desire to live a simple life in a modest home, you need to be very direct about that with her and see where she stands. You have a challenge in that you have a lot more money than she does. This can create a lot of problems in relationships if not discussed very early on. I think you need to have this discussion and see whether the two of you are financially compatible. The fact that it is still on your mind tells me that it could be a big issue.
Good luck with it.
Congrats on getting the house under contract.
Regarding the potential differences of opinion with the fiance, and I know you saw this earlier in the thread, but it bears repeating...PRENUP, PRENUP, PRENUP! Protect yourself, just in case. It sounds like you have a lot more net worth than she does. You wouldn't want to risk losing a big chunk of that if things didn't work out.
Good luck!
Regarding the potential differences of opinion with the fiance, and I know you saw this earlier in the thread, but it bears repeating...PRENUP, PRENUP, PRENUP! Protect yourself, just in case. It sounds like you have a lot more net worth than she does. You wouldn't want to risk losing a big chunk of that if things didn't work out.
Good luck!
MRG
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
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A big expensive house is just 4 walls and a roof. You can be just as happy with less expensive 4 walls and a roof, or miserable in either.
Best wishes,
MRG
Best wishes,
MRG
I'm going through a divorce currently. I have significant assets and have turned soon-to-be ex into a millionaire. (She never worked and had net worth of $20k when we met 10 years ago.). We have pre nup AND post nup, but ex hired a very aggressive lawyer to challenge those. Settlement will cost me $600k MORE than post nup. Also, ex pushed lifestyle creep so she'll be getting the 4000 sq ft home and keeping the kids in private school on my dime for a few years. Anyone who suggests no pre nup for a financially-lopsided couple (one with money, one without) does not live in the real world.
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Take these statements seriously. I'm 10 years older and divorcing from a 10 relationship. My ex quickly adopted a "what's yours is ours" mentality and her divorce lawyer is a huge enabler of such an entitled point of view.
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steelyman
Moderator Emeritus
Some time ago, I went hiking with the guys and girls I worked with. I had a coughing jag (this was when I smoked).
One of the guys turned to me and said, "you did it to yourself".
One of the guys turned to me and said, "you did it to yourself".
haha
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Sorry about your divorce. I also made my wife a millionaire, and our children were grown. One great thing about an experience like this is that it convinces one not to ever repeat any link in this chain.
ha
I also invest in first lien notes and find this much simpler and more satisfying than waiting for the monthly check from my rental. Yields are in the 9-10% range which also beats the cap rates on rentals in my area.
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I take responsibility for my situation, but the ex really did change her attitudes after marriage or did a great job hiding them prior. For the next relationship I'm fine to offer some financial stability but I won't be getting legally married again. To much nuance and surprise if things don't work out.
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MooreBonds
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Did you have a lawyer work up the pre- and post-nup agreements? Any recourse to make a claim on their E&O insurance, and/or have them represent you at a reduce or free expenses, since they worked up the agreement that apparently isn't holding up and is costing you $600k more than it should?
Senator
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Isn't it easier to find a woman you hate, and buy her a house?
Yes get a PRENUP!
If he loses half in a divorce and then makes huge child support payments plus alimony he might not agree.
A prenup would be a very good idea.
I work with guys who cannot retire yet because of a really bad divorce or 2.
. Sounds like a good plan for the next round!Sent from my iPad using Early Retirement Forum
I thought about this but I really don't want to fight a big law firm. It may sound silly, but I'm simply ready to be done with the fighting (a year of divorce arguments weighs on one's psyche) so I'm going to pay my dues, smile and move on with a hopefully-happy life.
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Thanks. My life is a daily massive dose of emotional extremes right now and before I consider another relationship I'll think very carefully about prior mistakes.
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