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Re: Rich get richer / poor get poorer
Old 09-06-2006, 03:17 PM   #121
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Re: Rich get richer / poor get poorer

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Is it wrong to only want to be responsible for my own health and that of my family?
If you are that morally unviable that's your problem but you are, in fact, as responsible as the rest of use SAY you are. It's called civilization. If you choose to flip off the rest of the world then give back everything you have ever had because you didn't pull any of it out of a hat. It is the product of the greater world. It's called the invisible hand.

Don't like cares and responsibilities? Wanna go into business for yourself? Give up society and live on an island without other people, or at least without any people who care about YOU and see how easy it is to create wealth.
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Re: Rich get richer / poor get poorer
Old 09-06-2006, 03:56 PM   #122
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Re: Rich get richer / poor get poorer

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Originally Posted by astromeria
Wrong? In some objective sense? I dunno. What is your philosophy of life? Is your standard the Golden Rule, what would Jesus do, every man for himself, or what?

And what do you mean by "responsible"? Just because I pay taxes doesn't mean I hold myself repsonsible for the War in Iraq, food stamps, or the FDIC.
I meant "responsible" in the sense that I have to do the work and the product of my labor is taken away from me and given to someone else.

In terms of my philosophy concerning this, I'd simply say that taking things that don't belong to me is wrong.

But the real question is, how do we improve healthcare and make it more affordable in order to relieve human suffering. I am sure that a third party payer system and price controls can't achieve that.
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Re: Rich get richer / poor get poorer
Old 09-06-2006, 05:01 PM   #123
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Re: Rich get richer / poor get poorer

Razz and others...

From what it seems by your posts... you want "universal health care"... now, I have no problem having some standard of care for everyone (such as the cut finger or other minor wounds or disease) but does that mean everybody will get a heart transplant if they need one?? If so, then the cost will skyrocket... and I do not think everyone is willing to pay the freight...

I remember seeing something about Oregon awhile back.. they ranked every procedure that is known to the medical community.. from 1 to whatever... they then said we have X dollars to spend... they estimated how many of each procedure and the cost and said we can provided services to number 200 or so.. if you needed 199, great, you got it... number 201.. sorry, you must pay on your own...

Here is Texas... there are people who are brain dead, but the families do not want to take them off the machine.... and they are not paying for it.. now, the hospital can give notice and remove the tube or the plug... this can save the system money that can be used for other more needy people...

And like I said... the Clinton plan would have forced everybody to have the same 'service'... sorry, but that is not how it should work.. as Marvin Zindler said all the time "It's hell to be poor"...
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Re: Rich get richer / poor get poorer
Old 09-06-2006, 05:40 PM   #124
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Re: Rich get richer / poor get poorer

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Originally Posted by Texas Proud
And like I said... the Clinton plan would have forced everybody to have the same 'service'...*
When you first said this, I thought you were joking. You honestly believe this or perhaps I misunderstand you?

I did some research (because I couldn't believe Clinton, Bush or anyone else would create a system where everyone had the same plan). I believe there were a number of choices of plan. For reference: http://www.studyworld.com/The_Clinton_Health_Plan.htm.

If I did misunderstand you, my apologies.
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Re: Rich get richer / poor get poorer
Old 09-07-2006, 05:01 PM   #125
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Re: Rich get richer / poor get poorer

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If you are that morally unviable
now knowing i would be reprobate to think otherwise, i would nonetheless like to know 1) the $ amount per year we, as a society, should be spending on provision of medical care, and 2) how that sum will be funded. thank you.*
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Re: Rich get richer / poor get poorer
Old 09-07-2006, 05:25 PM   #126
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Re: Rich get richer / poor get poorer

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Originally Posted by Zathras
When you first said this, I thought you were joking.* You honestly believe this or perhaps I misunderstand you?

I did some research (because I couldn't believe Clinton, Bush or anyone else would create a system where everyone had the same plan).* I believe there were a number of choices of plan.* For reference: http://www.studyworld.com/The_Clinton_Health_Plan.htm.

If I did misunderstand you, my apologies.
From your article...

The Clinton plan also will limit what types of operations are covered, and it puts restrictions on how long a person can stay in a hospital, nursing home, or rehabilitation center. It would also regulate the wages of specialists, and the prices of drugs. ....

Overall Clinton's plan is generally good. If it works it will provide universal coverage with controlled costs. If it works. The problem with Clinton's plan, and in fact any other plan is that it has to put limits on operations, research, and tests. Who is to set these limits that might decide whether a person might live or die?

Clinton's plan also does not allow much for freedom of choice of doctors. Clinton is pushing the HMO (Health Maintenance Organization) part of his plan, and if one wants to choose his own doctor, he must pay a deductible and 20% of the costs of the visit.

Americans, in general, do not want an HMO type system rather they want to be able to go to the doctor they choose. American people prefer a trusting doctor-patient relationship, if they know their doctor it makes life much easier.

So, nope, you did not misunderstand me... and your post supports what I said.
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Re: Rich get richer / poor get poorer
Old 09-07-2006, 05:53 PM   #127
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Re: Rich get richer / poor get poorer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud
From your article...

The Clinton plan also will limit what types of operations are covered, and it puts restrictions on how long a person can stay in a hospital, nursing home, or rehabilitation center. It would also regulate the wages of specialists, and the prices of drugs. ....

Overall Clinton's plan is generally good. If it works it will provide universal coverage with controlled costs. If it works. The problem with Clinton's plan, and in fact any other plan is that it has to put limits on operations, research, and tests. Who is to set these limits that might decide whether a person might live or die?

Clinton's plan also does not allow much for freedom of choice of doctors. Clinton is pushing the HMO (Health Maintenance Organization) part of his plan, and if one wants to choose his own doctor, he must pay a deductible and 20% of the costs of the visit.

Americans, in general, do not want an HMO type system rather they want to be able to go to the doctor they choose. American people prefer a trusting doctor-patient relationship, if they know their doctor it makes life much easier.

So, nope, you did not misunderstand me... and your post supports what I said.
Not to mention the doctor, who's wage just got cut or frozen will most likely not be willing to put in the 50+ hour weeks. Face it many people are doctors because the pay is so good.

I read limits on operations, research and tests, and I hear long wait for medical care. Limiting how long someone can be in a facility to receive care is also a decrease in service. What happens when the person does not get well enough fast enough? Do we throw them out on the street and say fend for yourself?
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Re: Rich get richer / poor get poorer
Old 09-07-2006, 07:12 PM   #128
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Re: Rich get richer / poor get poorer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud
From your article...

The Clinton plan also will limit what types of operations are covered, and it puts restrictions on how long a person can stay in a hospital, nursing home, or rehabilitation center. It would also regulate the wages of specialists, and the prices of drugs. ....



Quote:
Originally Posted by lets-retire
* Limiting how long someone can be in a facility to receive care is also a decrease in service.* What happens when the person does not get well enough fast enough?* Do we throw them out on the street and say fend for yourself?

Boy, gone for a couple of days and you guys are still talking about this stuff.*

Insurance companies already limit how long they will pay for hospital stays.* Remember the brouhaha about day surgery mastectomies?* *Have your breast removed and be home in time for supper.* *Of course they don't throw you out if you are too sick and of course they wouldn't have done so on the Clinton plan.* Either way, a doctor is going to have to beg someone for approval.
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Re: Rich get richer / poor get poorer
Old 09-07-2006, 07:19 PM   #129
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Re: Rich get richer / poor get poorer

Texas, when you said it would force everyone to take the same service, I thought this quote "Each health alliance will have three or four different options (HMO, fee for service, and combination plans) which the consumers could choose from. " gave a different conclusion.

I just misunderstood that when you said "the same 'service'" you really meant something like 'services with limitations' which, as Martha mentioned, we already have.
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Re: Rich get richer / poor get poorer
Old 09-07-2006, 07:43 PM   #130
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Re: Rich get richer / poor get poorer

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Originally Posted by Zathras
Texas, when you said it would force everyone to take the same service, I thought this quote "Each health alliance will have three or four different options (HMO, fee for service, and combination plans) which the consumers could choose from. " gave a different conclusion.

I just misunderstood that when you said "the same 'service'" you really meant something like 'services with limitations' which, as Martha mentioned, we already have.
Nope.. sorry.. then you did misunderstand... but the service that we were going to receive would gravitate to the average.. now, I do not know when I get good service or not... but my sister does.. and yes, the current system is 'broken'.. but the proposed fix is worse IMO....

One of the things that would get some change... if WE had to pay more for what we did.. AND we could comparison shop... now, whould that not be a hoot
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Re: Rich get richer / poor get poorer
Old 09-07-2006, 07:46 PM   #131
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Re: Rich get richer / poor get poorer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martha


Boy, gone for a couple of days and you guys are still talking about this stuff.
WHAT.. you should know us better than that

And just like most discussions like this.... no minds are changed one iota.. just a good way to vent your opinions.. but I have to admit that there are some very good people on this board that have different views than me... and I respect their view..
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Re: Rich get richer / poor get poorer
Old 09-07-2006, 08:35 PM   #132
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Re: Rich get richer / poor get poorer

The Clinton plan was crap because it did not address the problem. It had some grudging intimations in that direction but what it was really all about was a massive Big Government power grab disguised as "universal access to health care".
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Re: Rich get richer / poor get poorer
Old 09-08-2006, 07:32 AM   #133
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Re: Rich get richer / poor get poorer

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Either way, a doctor is going to have to beg someone for approval.
Yup, but after arguing with the government for many, many years I'd rather argue with something in the private sector. My experience is the private company's argument will typically be something like, "it's our policy," to which I can reply I don't give a crap about your policy, and let the fun begin. The government's argument is normal, "Federal law blah, blah, requires" It is kind of hard for the little guy to argue against federal law without a lawyer.

Whether it's federal or private insurance paying the bills, the only way limiting the amount of time in a care facility will save money is by shortening the stay. If the private companies have already shortened the length of time to a minimum, then the only way the federal government can shorten it any further is to send people home, who still need in patient care. If they put verbiage in the program allowing the doctors to keep someone in the hospital as long as they feel it is necessary, with approval of course, then we are back where we started. I can see the government paying for or requiring a second opinion as to why the patient needs to be in the hospital longer than the mandated time limit. Which will also result in higher costs. I know about short stays, my wife was in the hospital for a total of three days for brain surgery. It didn't really matter much because with the meds she was on, all she did was sleep and eat a little for about a week after she came home.

Razztazz--I think we actually agree on something.
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Re: Rich get richer / poor get poorer
Old 09-08-2006, 09:43 AM   #134
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Re: Rich get richer / poor get poorer

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Originally Posted by lets-retire
I know about short stays, my wife was in the hospital for a total of three days for brain surgery.* It didn't really matter much because with the meds she was on, all she did was sleep and eat a little for about a week after she came home.
It's tough to balance the need for emergency response with the very real risk of hospital staph infections.* I wonder if shorter stays cut down on hospitals making patients sicker without raising mortality rates...
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Re: Rich get richer / poor get poorer
Old 09-08-2006, 09:45 AM   #135
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Re: Rich get richer / poor get poorer

It kind of makes sense, the last thing you want someone with a big gaping wound to do is hang around a bunch of sick people.
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Re: Rich get richer / poor get poorer
Old 09-08-2006, 09:49 AM   #136
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Re: Rich get richer / poor get poorer

One thing that really bothers me about the new Republicans is the selfishness that I see. *They send our young troops to die in the Middle East and then lower taxes for themselves (and the poor too, I guess), rationalizing the entire process. *This means that when these troops come home someday they will have to pay for the war too, pay off the national debt that building at such a fast rate. *I guess the new Republicans don't see this double duty. *Maybe their all caught up in a rapture of power--without the responsibility that should come with it.
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Re: Rich get richer / poor get poorer
Old 09-08-2006, 10:07 AM   #137
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Re: Rich get richer / poor get poorer

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Originally Posted by Apocalypse
One thing that really bothers me about the new Republicans is the selfishness that I see. *They send our young troops to die in the Middle East and then lower taxes for themselves (and the poor too, I guess), rationalizing the entire process. *This means that when these troops come home someday they will have to pay for the war too, pay off the national debt that building at such a fast rate. *I guess the new Republicans don't see this double duty. *Maybe their all caught up in a rapture of power--without the responsibility that should come with it.
Perhaps it's worse than that.

Military pay in a combat zone is tax-free. In fact Congress just revised the IRA rules to allow veterans to make full IRA contributions regardless of their W-2 numbers because many of them didn't have enough "earned income" to make an IRA contribution. There's also a little-known military combat-zone savings program that guarantees a 10% return on up to a $10K one-year investment. Of course you have to survive the entire year.

I've seen innovative manipulations of the re-enlistment system to profit from these arcane rules. An enlisted nuclear technician can commit to another 4-6 years and receive $30K (perhaps more today, I've been out of the loop for over four years). If that re-enlistment is done within the combat zone then that bonus money is also tax-free. Although the policies have probably tightened up, some people used to take temporary duty in those places for the express purpose of re-enlisting.

It's a great deal... if you're one of the survivors.

However I would much rather have Congress lowering taxes and running deficits on lower revenue than to give them the majority of my money and have them running deficits on higher revenue. They can't abuse my tax dollars if they don't get them in the first place.
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Re: Rich get richer / poor get poorer
Old 09-08-2006, 10:14 AM   #138
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Re: Rich get richer / poor get poorer

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Originally Posted by Apocalypse
One thing that really bothers me about the new Republicans is the selfishness that I see. *They send our young troops to die in the Middle East and then lower taxes for themselves (and the poor too, I guess), rationalizing the entire process. *This means that when these troops come home someday they will have to pay for the war too, pay off the national debt that building at such a fast rate. *I guess the new Republicans don't see this double duty. *Maybe their all caught up in a rapture of power--without the responsibility that should come with it.

Hmmm... like the Dems did any different when they were in power... they spent money on all thier 'stuff'.. and make laws that drove costs up.. (don't get me wrong.. I think many are needed...)..

the only time the system seems to 'work' is when it can not work... that is a Republican congress and Dem president... that combination has proven to be the best for the country no matter who is in which seat..
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Re: Rich get richer / poor get poorer
Old 09-08-2006, 12:10 PM   #139
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Re: Rich get richer / poor get poorer

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Originally Posted by Apocalypse
One thing that really bothers me about the new Republicans is the selfishness that I see. *They send our young troops to die in the Middle East and then lower taxes for themselves (and the poor too, I guess), rationalizing the entire process. *This means that when these troops come home someday they will have to pay for the war too, pay off the national debt that building at such a fast rate. *I guess the new Republicans don't see this double duty. *Maybe their all caught up in a rapture of power--without the responsibility that should come with it.
I'm pretty sure it's Clinton's fault.
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Re: Rich get richer / poor get poorer
Old 09-08-2006, 12:24 PM   #140
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Re: Rich get richer / poor get poorer

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Originally Posted by d
now knowing i would be reprobate to think otherwise, i would nonetheless like to know 1) the $ amount per year we, as a society, should be spending on provision of medical care, and 2) how that sum will be funded. thank you.
1) Who can say? Isn't that like asking "How much should society be spending on food." or "How much should society be spending on recreation." That's up to the market (millions of individuals acting freely in their own self-interest) and the invisible hand to conclude.

2) If politicians are to abide by the constitution (which they don't) then the federal government can't fund healthcare without an amendment. Knowing that the constitution however is largely symbolic in this day and age, and not treated as a legal contract any longer, that argument will not be welcomed. So, I would offer that those who demand services should pay for those services, because a third party payer system will result in vastly increased demand, and a reluctance to provide services (lower supply), and certainly increase the overall expenditures. It would seem that the free market would be best able to allocate the scarce resources of healthcare to best guarantee low prices and availability of services to those who need them.

If people had to pay the real cost of going to the doctor everytime, they wouldn't go in for every little sniffle and scuff, thus lowering demand.

Furthermore, if licensing requirements were lessened, there would be a higher availability of healthcare providers, decreasing the price. Do we really need someone to attend 7 years of schooling followed by a 3 years residency to be able to prescribe amoxicillin for a sore throat? And why does the government allow the AMA to restrict the number of doctors admitted to med school, essentially limiting the number of doctors? I know there are all sorts of rationalizations to this, such as "safety" and "quality." But under scrutiny, those arguments are show to be nothing more that union-style protections for medical practitioners, and have little to do with ensuring the safety of the general public.
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