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Old 08-01-2019, 06:20 AM   #601
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Is this going anywhere or is one senator still sitting on it?
It’s made more progress in this thread than in the US Senate. Stuck there.
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Old 08-01-2019, 07:34 AM   #602
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I hope it stays stuck; as it is just a money grab by politicians.

There are some of you that have said that retirement accounts were meant to be a source of funds for the retiree and their spouse, and shouldn't get special tax treatment and be inherited.

Well, the same goes for my house, or rental properties. They were not meant to be shelter for my children, but they will receive special tax treatment when inherited, and are not forced to be liquidated 10 years after our death.

They're my personal property.
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Old 08-01-2019, 07:49 AM   #603
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Originally Posted by ncbill View Post
It may be a moot point anyway...how many really inherit IRAs worth over $400k?
Just a guess but I'd bet most folks here will leave this earth with well over that amount in an IRA. More likely 2 to 5 times that amount.
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Old 08-02-2019, 12:04 AM   #604
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Originally Posted by Winemaker View Post
I hope it stays stuck; as it is just a money grab by politicians.

There are some of you that have said that retirement accounts were meant to be a source of funds for the retiree and their spouse, and shouldn't get special tax treatment and be inherited.

Well, the same goes for my house, or rental properties. They were not meant to be shelter for my children, but they will receive special tax treatment when inherited, and are not forced to be liquidated 10 years after our death.

They're my personal property.
Agree with you 100%.

Surprised how many posters disagree. At least they should "grandfather"
older IRAs. Changing the rules in the middle of the game. Shame on them!

All because they cannot manage the national debt/budget.
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Old 08-02-2019, 04:56 AM   #605
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Originally Posted by Winemaker View Post
I hope it stays stuck; as it is just a money grab by politicians.

There are some of you that have said that retirement accounts were meant to be a source of funds for the retiree and their spouse, and shouldn't get special tax treatment and be inherited.

Well, the same goes for my house, or rental properties. They were not meant to be shelter for my children, but they will receive special tax treatment when inherited, and are not forced to be liquidated 10 years after our death.

They're my personal property.
But your house or rental properties are not the accumulated result of income that you never pay taxes on and saved for retirement.... your house and rental properties were paid for from income that you paid taxes on.... a huge difference... you totally missed the point.
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Old 08-02-2019, 05:00 AM   #606
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Just a guess but I'd bet most folks here will leave this earth with well over that amount in an IRA. More likely 2 to 5 times that amount.
+1 Mine will likely be much more than $400k even after RMDs.

What they will probably do is NOT index the $400k to inflation so as time goes on the benefit of the $400k exemption will get smaller and smaller.
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Old 08-02-2019, 05:28 AM   #607
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Originally Posted by Winemaker View Post
I hope it stays stuck; as it is just a money grab by politicians.

There are some of you that have said that retirement accounts were meant to be a source of funds for the retiree and their spouse, and shouldn't get special tax treatment and be inherited.

Well, the same goes for my house, or rental properties. They were not meant to be shelter for my children, but they will receive special tax treatment when inherited, and are not forced to be liquidated 10 years after our death.

They're my personal property.
The deferred taxes in your IRA are our property.
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Old 08-02-2019, 05:37 AM   #608
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The deferred taxes in your IRA are our property.
That really cut me bad. Thanks for the reminder that deferred taxes belong to the taxing authorities among us.
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Old 08-03-2019, 01:51 AM   #609
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Agree with you 100%.

Surprised how many posters disagree. At least they should "grandfather"
older IRAs. Changing the rules in the middle of the game. Shame on them!

All because they cannot manage the national debt/budget.

I agree. They appear to actually maneuvering to create a tax bomb for the next generation after encouraging the parents to use this as a tool to assist their children with their own retirements.
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Old 08-03-2019, 04:44 AM   #610
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I agree. They appear to actually maneuvering to create a tax bomb for the next generation after encouraging the parents to use this as a tool to assist their children with their own retirements.
I don't think that IRA participants were ever encouraged to use IRAs as a tool to assist their children with their own retirements. Show me the .gov citations that encouraged that.
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Old 08-03-2019, 05:13 AM   #611
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Thanks for the reminder that deferred taxes belong to the taxing authorities among us.
You are welcome.
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Old 08-03-2019, 05:28 AM   #612
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But your house or rental properties are not the accumulated result of income that you never pay taxes on and saved for retirement.... your house and rental properties were paid for from income that you paid taxes on.... a huge difference... you totally missed the point.
I'm not missing any point. The appreciation of my house and rental properties will will get a stepped up basis on the day of my death, and no income taxes will be paid at all. Yes, there may be an estate tax if the value is large enough, but no income tax.

If your argument is that my mortgage payments were taxed as income, and therefore it makes the real estate gains "tax legit", does pass the smell test. Most of my rental income is sheltered by real and imaginary accounting expenses, and no income taxes were ever on paid on that income, even though real money goes into my bank account.

Perhaps you could say that my home is different as I cannot depreciate it on my tax return. My $600,000 home that I paid $150,000 has a large gain now, and income taxes will never be paid on that appreciation.
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Old 08-03-2019, 05:56 AM   #613
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I'm not missing any point. The appreciation of my house and rental properties will will get a stepped up basis on the day of my death, and no income taxes will be paid at all. Yes, there may be an estate tax if the value is large enough, but no income tax.

If your argument is that my mortgage payments were taxed as income, and therefore it makes the real estate gains "tax legit", does pass the smell test. Most of my rental income is sheltered by real and imaginary accounting expenses, and no income taxes were ever on paid on that income, even though real money goes into my bank account.

Perhaps you could say that my home is different as I cannot depreciate it on my tax return. My $600,000 home that I paid $150,000 has a large gain now, and income taxes will never be paid on that appreciation.
Yes, you are still missing the point. That tIRA money was the accumulation of income that was never taxed and at some point needs to be taxed. Your house and properties are NOT the accumulation of income that was never taxed so they are treated differently.

I'm not going to defend stepped-up basis... it is what it is but probably doesn't make a lot of sense theoretically unless one pays estate tax... but the powers that be gave those with estates under the exemption a nice tax break.
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Old 08-03-2019, 06:00 AM   #614
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Yes, you are still missing the point. That tIRA money was the accumulation of income that was never taxed and at some point needs to be taxed. Your house and properties are NOT the accumulation of income that was never taxed so they are treated differently.
+1
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Old 08-03-2019, 07:28 AM   #615
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Yes, you are still missing the point. That tIRA money was the accumulation of income that was never taxed and at some point needs to be taxed. Your house and properties are NOT the accumulation of income that was never taxed so they are treated differently.

I'm not going to defend stepped-up basis... it is what it is but probably doesn't make a lot of sense theoretically unless one pays estate tax... but the powers that be gave those with estates under the exemption a nice tax break.
I never said it shouldn't be taxed ever, just taxed as the rules they set up when they were created. My kids, if forced to liquidate over 10 years, are thrown into much higher tax brackets than if liquidated under current rules. It's a money grab.

Our ~$250,000 of untaxed contributions created multimillion dollar 401k, 403b and tIRAs, under the laws created by Congress back in the 1980's. No funny founder's stock tricks, just good old investing 101 for us. I was a supervisor in a coal mine for 35 years. 80% of it is capital gains, taxed differently if held outside a tIRA. But If we allow them to change the rules now, and we don't protest, scream, bang our feet peaceably, they will come after more. And more. And more.

I also believe the "allowance" for the purchase of annuities in the bill, allows for the "confiscation" of the remainder of account, and prevents all inheritance possibilities.
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Old 08-03-2019, 10:59 AM   #616
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The deferred taxes in your IRA are our property.
Hope you are kidding? You can't really believe this? Right.
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Old 08-03-2019, 11:12 AM   #617
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I don't think that IRA participants were ever encouraged to use IRAs as a tool to assist their children with their own retirements. Show me the .gov citations that encouraged that.
My view, IRA's introduced 30+ years ago, with detailed rules. I followed the rules. Today, IRA net worth, substantial. Being forced to liquidate in 5 or 10 years, (depending on house/senate version), extremely unfair.

Just glad, I'm not alone in my views,
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Old 08-03-2019, 11:38 AM   #618
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I agree that the 5 or 10 years is an overreaction by Congress to close a loophole that allows wealthy people who to superstretch their IRAs under the current rules by making grandchildren or even great grandchildren beneficiaries of their IRAs. I would prefer something along the lines of the IRA owner's remaining life per the IRS tables or 20 years, whichever is longer, for non-spousal beneficiaries.

Are you aware that the Senate version allows a stretch on the first $400k?
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Old 08-03-2019, 12:08 PM   #619
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I don't think that IRA participants were ever encouraged to use IRAs as a tool to assist their children with their own retirements. Show me the .gov citations that encouraged that.
I don't have proof, but I'd bet some financial advisors & brokerages did so in their ads for creating IRA's. Perhaps even companies did while encouraging 401k participation. I mean if you allowed to pass along IRA's to beneficiaries with extended time distribution, why wouldn't they tout that? And the Fed Gov isn't off the hook for providing encouragement when their own rules allowed it. How are they not?
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Old 08-03-2019, 12:13 PM   #620
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I don't have proof....
I had no need to read any further.

You picqued my curiosity though... so I googled "Why contribute to an IRA?" and got a number of links... none mention being able to stretch tax-deferral to non-spousal beneficiaries as a selling point so I'm skeptical of your assertion.

https://www.fidelity.com/viewpoints/...ute-to-ira-now
https://www.moneyunder30.com/why-you...a-contribution
https://investor.vanguard.com/ira/iras
https://www.fool.com/retirement/2018...te-to-one.aspx
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