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Old 09-02-2008, 01:49 PM   #41
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Achiever, quit drawing attention to my um, visual...I'm gonna get in trouble!
I sincerely hope (as do my sheep) that those are two people.
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Old 09-02-2008, 04:15 PM   #42
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I've watched Suze for a few years now and her delivery is grating but her message is usually worthwhile. Last year she promoted a TD Ameritrade "Save Yourself" account that paid a bonus of $100 if you saved $50/month for a year via auto deductions. I've always been a good saver but I'll jump through a few hoops for $100 and set up the account and got my $100 after the year was up. But even better, my 24 year old son also signed up, finished the year, got his $100 and just keeps letting it deduct and accumulate because it's so easy. In addition he saved up enough to pay off his car loan 4 years early.

I'm the only one here who watches both Dave and Suze but DH and the 2 sons overhear a lot of it and it looks like it's sinking in.
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Old 09-02-2008, 04:24 PM   #43
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I bought my first house when I was 25. Did the whole thing myself. My dad had been out of the country for 4 years by then. What the OP's daughter is doing is great, but you really don't need Suze Orman or anyone else to tell you the value of money if you had to have a job starting when you're 13 years old and had to put yourself through college and grad school on scholarships. The school of hard knocks is the best teacher.
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Old 09-02-2008, 05:51 PM   #44
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Alright boys--must be desperate for entertainment if you are imagining Suze Orman naked, but whatever.

We took some young folks to see Dave Ramsey when he came to town a few weeks ago, and as others have said, his advice is not for the folks on this board, but it is where some of us started. It was a great program, inspiring and upbeat, and I saw a lot of enthused faces in the (huge) crowd.
I have no problem with folks getting the "be smart with money" info from Dave or from Suze. Much of our path to FIRE is paved with advice from Dave--and I did get a huge amount of satisfaction from yelling we're debt free on his radio program when we paid off the house!
Suze is nerve-wracking to listen to, no dispute with that!
Why is Dave much more popular with the board than Suze and yet Suze is more popular than Dave (I think) with the public at large?

I hadn't head of Dave Ramsey before reading this board, and hadn't seen him until I started getting the Fox Business Channel. I enjoy looking at the Fox reporters, but Dave is my favorite show to turn the sound up. I only watch him for a few minutes at a time, because it isn't like I'm learning anything. Still I am impressed with his ability to give good sensible advice. On the other hand Suze drives me nuts.

Is the advice between the two very different? or is it just Suze's voice that annoys the heck of me.
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Old 09-02-2008, 06:00 PM   #45
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Last year she promoted a TD Ameritrade "Save Yourself" account that paid a bonus of $100 if you saved $50/month for a year via auto deductions. I've always been a good saver but I'll jump through a few hoops for $100 and set up the account and got my $100 after the year was up. But even better, my 24 year old son also signed up, finished the year, got his $100......
I found out about that "Save Yourself" account last year too. I'll be getting my $100 this month! I also had told my Mom about that deal, and she signed up for it too, so she'll also be getting her $100 this month! Not too bad of a deal for $50 a month x 12 months.....a 16.667% boost!

She said on her show to just get her book, and the "Code" number was in it. So off I went to Waldenbooks, found her book, looked inside, found the code # and wrote it down, and came back home to open my account. I didn't need to read her book, just needed the #.
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Old 09-02-2008, 06:59 PM   #46
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Why is Dave much more popular with the board than Suze and yet Suze is more popular than Dave (I think) with the public at large?

I hadn't head of Dave Ramsey before reading this board, and hadn't seen him until I started getting the Fox Business Channel. I enjoy looking at the Fox reporters, but Dave is my favorite show to turn the sound up. I only watch him for a few minutes at a time, because it isn't like I'm learning anything. Still I am impressed with his ability to give good sensible advice. On the other hand Suze drives me nuts.

Is the advice between the two very different? or is it just Suze's voice that annoys the heck of me.
Hmm, I don't know, really, what other folks think on that but here's why I listen to Dave--he's on the radio (and has a commercial free podcast). I guess Suze is on the television so I've never seen her program, though I know her voice is like fingernails on a chalkboard from the stories of others and I've thumbed through her books.

I like that Dave Ramsey advocates keeping gifting in your budget and focuses on behavioral changes to how people think about their money. His live show was impressive--he seems to be the perfect storm of charisma, good message, excellent delivery, and the right venue. Plus I think there is some of that "but for the grace go I" in listening to some of the sad tales on his program--it reminds me that I am fortunate to have been born into middle class America and had so many opportunities available to me.
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Old 09-02-2008, 07:18 PM   #47
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Both Dave and Suze advise that debt is the thing that holds people back in their finances.

Dave says all debt is bad, don't borrow except for a house and pay that off as quickly as possible. When trying to get out of debt pay off the smallest debt first and then "snowball" that monthly payment into the next highest debt, etc, until all your debts are paid off. He does acknowledge that a 15 year fixed rate mortgage on your residence is ok.

Suze says there are good debts (for education, mortgages) and that the way to get out of debt is to pay down the debt with the highest interest rate and then pay the one with the next highest rate. Lately she's been changing her mind on student loans, especially private student loans, which she no longer advises you to use.

Dave just says, "Go to a college that you can afford." Save up, pay cash. Straight, plain advise, but not always practical for everyone.

Suze talks a lot about improving your FICO score so that you can get better rates on loans. Dave says that you should not "worship at the altar of the great FICO". Get out of debt, stay out of debt and you won't even need a FICO score.

Interesting stuff all around. I like to hear other people's stories and successes.

Anyone watch Carmen Wong Ulrich on CNBC "On The Money"?
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Old 09-02-2008, 11:19 PM   #48
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Dave seems to be the epitome of the Fox News persona, good Christian values, tithing, very breadbasket Middle America.

Suze is much more "progressive" and liberal, a brightly colored lesbian.

Both give straight forward "get out of debt" advice, but generally I think the blue states like Suze and the red like Dave. (to distill it to a single point)
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Old 09-02-2008, 11:39 PM   #49
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Hmm, I don't know, really, what other folks think on that but here's why I listen to Dave--he's on the radio (and has a commercial free podcast). I guess Suze is on the television so I've never seen her program, though I know her voice is like fingernails on a chalkboard from the stories of others and I've thumbed through her books.
Yeah, I've been listening to DR's podcasts lately. Sometimes it gets to be a bit much though.

His over the top orthodoxy against debt is downright ridiculous and taken to the extreme sometimes. For instance: advocating that somebody pull out a lump sum from 401K/IRA as soon as they hit 59.5, damn the tax implications, because he'd "be debt free today" because of the "risk" they have with that debt. :confused: I think he's starting to lose it a bit.

Also any time he wanders into the realm of investing I grit my teeth. He always goes on about how 12% is what people should expect from their investments, and occasionally will tell somebody that they can withdraw 8% from their portfolio at retirement in perpetuity with 4% inflation. Ridiculously optimistic expectations he's setting for his largely underinformed followers; as we all know here.

I'm also aggravated with the increasing numbers of people who say things like: "We didn't know we shouldn't do that (run up huge debt to finance a lifestyle our income can't support) because we just started listening to you." AAAAGGGHHH!!! What's happened to common sense

I know, preaching to the choir here

And I personally cannot STAND Suze's voice! Five minutes is about all I can take.
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Old 09-02-2008, 11:46 PM   #50
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Oh yeah, I love Dave and his "Growth mutual funds" that return 12%. And if yours doesn't, you picked the wrong fund!

But Suze is no better with investment advice. She constantly goes after hot money funds, talks about certain asset classes being overvalued, all the while keeping all her own money in Munis!
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Old 09-03-2008, 11:02 AM   #51
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I'm not a fan of Suze Orman, but most of her advice is essentially valid. Her rather abrasive manner is unfortunate, but it's not exactly atypical of television financial personalities.

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[S]he told people not to buy bonds when in fact bonds turned out to be good investments.
I don't know any experienced investor, or investment advisor, who can claim a 100% success record.

Reportedly the majority of her own portfolio is in tax-advantaged municipal bonds [see Outing Suze Orman's investment portfolio - MarketWatch].

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She insists (no exceptions) that it's a bad idea not to pay off a mortgage if one has the means to do so.
FWIW, I agree with her. Retiring debt is almost always prudent.
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Old 09-03-2008, 11:08 AM   #52
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Retiring debt is generally a whole lot better and smarter than what most people end up doing with their money. At least theres a positive return...
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Old 09-03-2008, 11:43 AM   #53
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FWIW, I agree with her. Retiring debt is almost always prudent.
But a mortgage isn't neccessarily debt. In my case it's diversification, allowing me to not have such a large chunk of money tied up in home equity, which I suspect will grow only at inflation's rate or less for the next 10 or more years. I think her (and Dave's) focus ought to be set specifically on CCs, HELOCs, and other revolving debt vehicles. Most people I know wouldn't save the difference if they had paid off their mortgages, where they might stretch to save AND pay down the mortgage. JMHO.
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Old 09-03-2008, 12:00 PM   #54
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harley, I understand what you're saying (though I take issue with the suggestion that "a mortgage isn't necessarily debt").

Paying off a mortgage ASAP frees up considerable cash, which can be of great assistance in building one's investment portfolio. If some people prefer to waste spend the money on personal consumption, I guess that's their choice ...
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Old 09-03-2008, 12:02 PM   #55
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To be fair, I think the vast majority of folks listening to Dave Ramsey (and Suze, I presume) are just trying to get out of regular debt and are a seriously long way away from paying off their houses. He uses baby steps to describe the process, and I think paying off the house comes after investing 10% for retirement and funding college for kids.
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Old 09-03-2008, 12:02 PM   #56
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We're skirting too close to the pay-off-the-mortgage debate, but basically the vast majority of people are holding mortgages in the 5.5-6.5% range. You cant get a 'savings' rate in that area. Price appreciation is just gravy. Heck, you cant buy a long term CD or get bonds at those rates right now and its possible you wont for years to come. Looking back over the last 10 years or so, paying down your mortgage debt might have been one of your best 'investments'.

Considering that a lot of people feel better about reducing debt than they do about savings, its definitely a better financial ROI than buying a couple of new quads or that Hummer they've always wanted.
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Old 09-03-2008, 12:28 PM   #57
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I don't know any experienced investor, or investment advisor, who can claim a 100% success record.
Which is why people offering investment advice to the general public should recommend diversification. Orman does not do this. She recommends specific asset classes. Her recommendation not to invest in bonds was bad not because bonds performed well. Her recommendation was bad because it was an effort to chase and beat the market. This is the opposite of what the average person needs to hear.

Yes. I've heard that Orman's own portfolio is concentrated in muni's. This has been a puzzle considering her anti-bond stance.

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FWIW, I agree with her. Retiring debt is almost always prudent.
Generally speaking, retiring very low interest debt is not financially prudent. It may be prudent in other ways (e.g., emotionally), but it is not the optimal investment decision. It is equivalent to someone keeping all their money in a bank savings account. It's ultra-safe. It might be appropriate in certain situations (e.g., if one lacks any ability to properly handle money), but Orman's dogmatism that this is the only approach limits her credibility.
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Old 09-03-2008, 02:35 PM   #58
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This has been a puzzle considering her anti-bond stance.
Really? Outside the fact that she's exorbitantly rich, could probably never spend all of her money in a rational way and has an extremely high amount of taxable income?
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Old 09-03-2008, 07:17 PM   #59
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I've been listening to DR lately. Been working on reducing my monthly debt (car payments). I certainly understand the difference between good and bad debt. DR thinks all debt is bad. I can live with some, since I can earn better returns with my money.
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Old 09-03-2008, 07:32 PM   #60
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If Suze could just learn to cut back on the "girl friend" and "boyfriend" crap.. Damn that is so annoying.

My pet peeve for the day
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