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Old 08-22-2008, 01:55 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by REWahoo View Post
I thought we'd already established you were looking out for the best interests of your clients and only interested in their complete satisfaction, not in how much commission you made. Should we revisit this issue?


Based on the 23 posts you've put up in the past 4 hours, I'm very glad you chose to spend your days selling annuities and not reviewing medical charts.
Yes, I detect the sincerity in your posts. Now I'll just run along so I can watch my annuities grow. You go watch your mutual funds also. When your done, go check the oil in your car, the preservatives in your cereals, and fertilizer blend on your lawn. You wouldn't want to lose control of anything.
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Old 08-22-2008, 01:58 PM   #122
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
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Originally Posted by Marquette View Post
If you're wrong then you're out your annuity money because your carrier folds and you're out your stock money because you picked wrong. If he's wrong, part of his portfolio goes down in response to market forces and some goes up. Or, it all goes down and it doesn't matter what happens because we're all toast.
Well first off, the money is kept separate so the insurance company going under only means it'd be a bit tougher to get your assets back, but I also don't plan to stand by and watch as insurance companies fall by the wayside. Are you assuming they all do it overnight? If the largest insurance companies in the world go under, we will all be suffering the economy. With that said, don't think I don't lose a little sleep over the thought of it anyway.
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Old 08-22-2008, 02:00 PM   #123
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If doctors were paid on commission for procedures, yep...I'd be a bit worried about their recommendations.

As far as my prospects for going broke...well...again...if that happens I must have had a bad plan.

As it stands and the way I'm invested, if I go broke I'm pretty sure your insurance company will have been plundered by street pirates.
Doctors absolutely are on commission. I know I called mine the other day and he wouldn't give me an answer over the phone. I had to come in for a visit first. Our sit down took about 15 minutes, he told me he didn't need to see me again for a year and he charged me $20 for the visit. No idea what the insurance company will pay.
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Old 08-22-2008, 02:14 PM   #124
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Now I'll just run along so I can watch my annuities grow.
Based on the amount of fertilizer you've spread so far today, they should really be taking off. Sincerely.
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Old 08-22-2008, 02:20 PM   #125
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who has had to go through some rigorous training to be able to offer the product
I do not think this is so. Certainly it is nowhere near as much "rigorous training" as it takes to become a doctor, which seems to be a comparison and analogy often cited. In fact, having gone through this training and received my license to sell these products myself, I can tell you exactly how "rigorous" it was. It was NOT difficult at all, and anyone who tries to obscure the details of these investments with "trust me I've been to rigorous training" should be highly suspect.

For what it's worth, the generally lackadaisical attitude of the class did change and students perked up considerably when we got to the section that discussed fees and commissions to be earned selling these annuities. Fascinating to see people's self-interest kick in.
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Old 08-22-2008, 02:28 PM   #126
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I do not think this is so. Certainly it is nowhere near as much "rigorous training" as it takes to become a doctor, which seems to be a comparison and analogy often cited. In fact, having gone through this training and received my license to sell these products myself, I can tell you exactly how "rigorous" it was. It was NOT difficult at all, and anyone who tries to obscure the details of these investments with "trust me I've been to rigorous training" should be highly suspect.

For what it's worth, the generally lackadaisical attitude of the class did change and students perked up considerably when we got to the section that discussed fees and commissions to be earned selling these annuities. Fascinating to see people's self-interest kick in.

You've got a Series 7? It's supposed to be the third toughest behind the MCATS and the CPA exam. Now if you're just talking about getting an insurance license, I'd agree. There's also the CE necessary. I guess it all boils down to how much effort you wish to do. I take due diligence pretty seriously.
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Old 08-22-2008, 02:29 PM   #127
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Then how do they manage to build all those big buildings and have their names put on major league stadiums?
If you were paying more attention, you would have noticed that I was talking about a mostly hypothetical product. It follows that no real company has made real profits from it, hence none of the money has gone into big buildings and stadiums. Those are funded by products we both wouldn't buy. For example, annuities recommended by comission-based financial advisers.
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Old 08-22-2008, 02:29 PM   #128
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Based on the amount of fertilizer you've spread so far today, they should really be taking off. Sincerely.
Wow you're clever. I hope there's enough social security for people like you.
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Old 08-22-2008, 02:30 PM   #129
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Keep goings folks, the cut and thrust of this debate is riveting. Does 1 or 2 bad years in the market always bring a flood of annuity debates like this?

There is plenty of data showing that in down years money flows out of the market into cash. I wonder if down years also produces a big jump in annuity purchases. If that's the case then it drums up the image of a ship labeled "Stock Market" in heavy seas while sharks are circulating waiting for people jumping overboard.
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Old 08-22-2008, 02:31 PM   #130
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If doctors were paid on commission for procedures, yep...I'd be a bit worried about their recommendations.
They are, aren't they? Isn't that what fee for service means?

Ha
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Old 08-22-2008, 02:39 PM   #131
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I see a lot of similarities between doctors an annuity salesmen. Except prior to the procedure the doc warns you... and uses some lubricant.
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Old 08-22-2008, 02:42 PM   #132
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Hmm, I'm screwing it up by using an HMO. They'd prefer to avoid seeing me when they dont have to and would much rather I email them or they talk to me on the phone.

Of course, if I decide an office visit is important to me, they'll see me later on today and I'll be seen within 5 minutes of my appointment.

All of this is possible because they're equally interested in keeping costs down and in my staying reasonably healthy. Of course, they can control the cost issue and offer more care per dollar because theres no 3rd party insurance company involved.
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Old 08-22-2008, 02:48 PM   #133
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Keep goings folks, the cut and thrust of this debate is riveting. Does 1 or 2 bad years in the market always bring a flood of annuity debates like this?

There is plenty of data showing that in down years money flows out of the market into cash. I wonder if down years also produces a big jump in annuity purchases. If that's the case then it drums up the image of a ship labeled "Stock Market" in heavy seas while sharks are circulating waiting for people jumping overboard.
Yep - people and sharks being what they are! - It's the hormones - but does anybody listen to me? .

I remember my raging debates with the Brit engineers in the 70's - buy Swiss annuities they said - you can't depend on $ or pounds or govt.'s.

First Thatcher and then Regan got elected and someone published the famous 'stocks are dead' article.

So what's the going rate on Swiss annuities now?

heh heh heh - I still have a few gold and silver coins in the old safe deposit box - I think.
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Old 08-22-2008, 02:52 PM   #134
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They are, aren't they? Isn't that what fee for service means?

Ha
Oh, Lord no. Fee for service means I get paid directly for what I do. Office visit, appendectomy, etc. all have associated fees, either based on time or complexity of the service.

Commission means that you come to see me for a headache. I can take a few minutes and make a 95% accurate diagnosis of tension headache, I get my office visit fee. Or, I can send you to the hospital for a $2500 MRI study. On commission I would get, say, 10% of that fee. Such billing is illegal by the way, for medicare and others. It is also considered unethical.

On commission, there is generally considered unethical incentive to order more and do more based on my own financial interests. Under fee for service, you know you are getting charged for the visit; it is a matter of whether my subsequent recommendations are done free of additional financial gain.

FWIW, I don't buy the contention that the presence of a big, fat incentive is not a factor in how sales people behave. Maybe more some than others, but if it didn't affect behavior, it would be built into the system.
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Old 08-22-2008, 03:09 PM   #135
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Oh, Lord no. Fee for service means I get paid directly for what I do. Office visit, appendectomy, etc. all have associated fees, either based on time or complexity of the service.

Commission means that you come to see me for a headache. I can take a few minutes and make a 95% accurate diagnosis of tension headache, I get my office visit fee. Or, I can send you to the hospital for a $2500 MRI study. On commission I would get, say, 10% of that fee. Such billing is illegal by the way, for medicare and others. It is also considered unethical.

On commission, there is generally considered unethical incentive to order more and do more based on my own financial interests. Under fee for service, you know you are getting charged for the visit; it is a matter of whether my subsequent recommendations are done free of additional financial gain.

FWIW, I don't buy the contention that the presence of a big, fat incentive is not a factor in how sales people behave. Maybe more some than others, but if it didn't affect behavior, it would be built into the system.
After I got up from the floor, I decided I needed to respond here.
If I'm understanding you, you're saying that a doctor would never do unneeded processes because it would be unethical. However, in the next paragraph you don't believe sales people have the same ethics?
So, Doctors are above other "regular type" people I guess. I guess that M.D. license gives you a conscience you can't get otherwise.....I've got some bad news for you. I can tell you plenty of stories of med mal cases.
All I can say is "WOW!!"
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Old 08-22-2008, 03:12 PM   #136
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Keep goings folks, the cut and thrust of this debate is riveting. Does 1 or 2 bad years in the market always bring a flood of annuity debates like this?

There is plenty of data showing that in down years money flows out of the market into cash. I wonder if down years also produces a big jump in annuity purchases. If that's the case then it drums up the image of a ship labeled "Stock Market" in heavy seas while sharks are circulating waiting for people jumping overboard.

I believe the whole point of the thread was that Scott Burns concluded that people needed a living benefit annuity. Not because of the down market, but because of the lack of pensions.
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Old 08-22-2008, 03:37 PM   #137
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If I'm understanding you, you're saying that a doctor would never do unneeded processes because it would be unethical. However, in the next paragraph you don't believe sales people have the same ethics?
So, Doctors are above other "regular type" people I guess. I guess that M.D. license gives you a conscience you can't get otherwise.....I've got some bad news for you. I can tell you plenty of stories of med mal cases.
All I can say is "WOW!!"
Actually, what I said was:
I don't buy the contention that the presence of a big, fat incentive is not a factor in how sales people behave. Maybe more some than others, but if it didn't affect behavior, it would be built into the system.
Sorry, I can't find in my post the words that you are so vigorously reacting to.
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Old 08-22-2008, 03:52 PM   #138
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I'd like to see the ratio of doctors and annuity salesmen who took on their respective careers because they really, really wanted to help people.

Art, if you're randomly falling on the floor, perhaps you'd be best to seek out a doctor and quietly see if you can get your money back out of those annuities. I dont have any data on the life expectancy of guys that fall to the ground but I'm betting its not very good.
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Old 08-22-2008, 04:23 PM   #139
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I believe the whole point of the thread was that Scott Burns concluded that people needed a living benefit annuity. Not because of the down market, but because of the lack of pensions.
I simply observed that in the 3 years I have been a member of this forum, I've never seen so many annuity threads. FWIW, I am very fortunate to have a non-COLA pension due in 18 months which should cover 75% of retirement expenses in year 1, so I don't need to consider another annuity.

But I do find the debates interesting.
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Old 08-22-2008, 04:31 PM   #140
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Simple math Alan. You can make a lot of money selling annuities. We have a lot of money.
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