Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-04-2014, 09:04 AM   #21
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Chuckanut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: West of the Mississippi
Posts: 17,171
Quote:
Originally Posted by donheff View Post
That is why I am amazed at the fear of immigration rampant on our shores. We are a magnet for entrepreneurial spirits looking to improve life for themselves and their families.
Yes. Who would we not admit to this country - Levi Straus, Sergey Brin, Elon Musk, Hyman Rickover, Albert Einstein, John Muir, or my parents and grandparents?
__________________
Comparison is the thief of joy

The worst decisions are usually made in times of anger and impatience.
Chuckanut is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 10-04-2014, 09:33 AM   #22
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 26,821
Quote:
Originally Posted by donheff View Post
+1 The American Dream has fueled our success for our entire history. That is why I am amazed at the fear of immigration rampant on our shores. We are a magnet for entrepreneurial spirits looking to improve life for themselves and their families. Just the people we want. We can deal with the small proportion of neer-do-wells who tag along -- they certainly are in no greater proportion than our own bad seeds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckanut View Post
Yes. Who would we not admit to this country - Levi Straus, Sergey Brin, Elon Musk, Hyman Rickover, Albert Einstein, John Muir, or my parents and grandparents?
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't all those people legally immigrate to the US?

For me, there is a huge difference between someone who follows the rules and comes here legally, and someone who enters illegally. That's a matter of law, not an opinion.

-ERD50
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Secular Stagnation
Old 10-04-2014, 09:41 AM   #23
Full time employment: Posting here.
cooch96's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Lakewood
Posts: 919
Secular Stagnation

Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't all those people legally immigrate to the US?



For me, there is a huge difference between someone who follows the rules and comes here legally, and someone who enters illegally. That's a matter of law, not an opinion.



-ERD50

Most of those folks immigrated when we didn't have irrational quotas. This nation was founded on fighting tyrannical laws. Ignoring irrational laws and fighting current injustice upholds that tradition. That's a matter of history, not an opinion. I consider it a fine tradition, which is admittedly my opinion.
__________________
Why be normal when you can be yourself?
cooch96 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2014, 09:55 AM   #24
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 26,821
Quote:
Originally Posted by cooch96 View Post
Most of those folks immigrated when we didn't have irrational quotas. This nation was founded on fighting tyrannical laws. Ignoring irrational laws and fighting current injustice upholds that tradition. That's a matter of history, not an opinion. I consider it a fine tradition, which is admittedly my opinion.
Perhaps (likely even) the system needs to be changed. But until then, illegal is illegal. And it is not 'undocumented', it is illegal. Not filing your taxes does not make you an 'undocumented income earner', it is illegal.

-ERD50
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2014, 10:29 AM   #25
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Midwest
Posts: 2,962
Quote:
Most of those folks immigrated when we didn't have irrational quotas. This nation was founded on fighting tyrannical laws. Ignoring irrational laws and fighting current injustice upholds that tradition. That's a matter of history, not an opinion. I consider it a fine tradition, which is admittedly my opinion.
At various time there were all kinds of quotas placed or attempted on all kinds of people coming here. This happened when the free and self governing People of this country decided they didn't want any more people from that place. Love it or hate it that's freedom. Letting anyone and everyone from anywhere barge or stumble in here and being forced to allow it is the opposite of freedom
razztazz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2014, 11:05 AM   #26
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Amethyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 12,597
I am afraid I hear little pigs' trotters approaching. I didn't mean to start a thread about the immigration issue; we won't solve it here. I'm first generation American, myself, and of course I don't support anyone's breaking the law.

Amethyst
__________________
If you understood everything I say, you'd be me ~ Miles Davis
'There is only one success – to be able to spend your life in your own way.’ Christopher Morley.
Even a blind clock finds an acorn twice a day.
Amethyst is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2014, 11:43 AM   #27
Moderator Emeritus
M Paquette's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Portland
Posts: 4,946
Let me get this straight.

You folks are worried that our economy may become stagnant because undocumented workers are taking all the good jobs washing dishes, picking strawberries, and weeding yards, and somehow that income isn't moving through the economy.

Um. Yeah.

There is a segment of economic actors who get substantial income, more than everybody else in the economy combined, but who do not put much of that income back in motion through the economy. There's another big segment which puts much of their income toward debt service, which does not currently help economic activity, although it did help years ago when they were drawing that debt.

Neither of these two segments are bussing tables or mowing lawns, nor are they likely to be immigrants of any sort.
M Paquette is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2014, 12:07 PM   #28
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Midwest
Posts: 2,962
Quote:
You folks are worried that our economy may become stagnant because undocumented workers are taking all the good jobs washing dishes, picking strawberries, and weeding yards, and somehow that income isn't moving through the economy.
Um. Yeah.
Not implying any intent on your part but just wanting to clarify my own previous post. I for one agree with you. Although cheap labor at the bottom can have an effect on generally suppressing wages throughout the totem pole, all the illegals are not keeping Ralph Kramden from driving his bus or Fred McMurray from designing airplanes, or Mr Howell from milking his cow.
razztazz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2014, 12:21 PM   #29
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
pb4uski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sarasota, FL & Vermont
Posts: 36,264
Quote:
Originally Posted by cooch96 View Post
Most of those folks immigrated when we didn't have irrational quotas. This nation was founded on fighting tyrannical laws. Ignoring irrational laws and fighting current injustice upholds that tradition. That's a matter of history, not an opinion. I consider it a fine tradition, which is admittedly my opinion.
"irrational quotas" is just your opinion, and we'll defend your right to express it. We are a country that adheres to rule of law. Those allegedly irrational quotas are the law. If you don't like them then lobby to get the quotas changed. I think many of us would agree that the process is broke and not working right, but the solution is change, not breaking the law.
__________________
If something cannot endure laughter.... it cannot endure.
Patience is the art of concealing your impatience.
Slow and steady wins the race.

Retired Jan 2012 at age 56
pb4uski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2014, 01:19 PM   #30
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
GravitySucks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Syracuse
Posts: 3,501
Quote:
Originally Posted by pb4uski View Post
I wonder if some of this reduced consumer demand was very predictable consequence of the Great Recession, similar to how our parent's generation reacted to the Great Depression. While it will undoubtedly result in slower growth, my hope is it will result in more sustainable growth as well and less consumer excess than in the past. I think more LBYMing and saving by the masses would be good even though it will have a adverse impact on economic growth.
+1. That is what I was thinking while listening. There was a lesson learned about both debt and lending that hadn't been demonstrated for a while.
I personally think the short attention span and the fact little punishment came down on those that profited will keep it a less than 'secular' time frame though.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Early Retirement Forum mobile app
__________________
“No, not rich. I am a poor man with money, which is not the same thing"
GravitySucks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2014, 02:06 PM   #31
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Reno
Posts: 1,331
Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345 View Post
Um, so why is this particular pundit being featured just right now? The bullcrap echo chamber that is the media operates 24/7 I guess...
YMMV, but Martin Wolf's columns in Financial Times are well worth reading, if you are interested in the European economy, and the fact that Europe is at the point of deflation makes it timely--to some.

YMMV, particularly if you don't care about Europe.
RobLJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2014, 04:34 PM   #32
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: aberdeen
Posts: 267
Legal or illegal, a group of people are always going to come here if there are jobs to be filled, that we Americans would not take or if there is as demand for it, that is not being satisfied. Think agriculture!
I have been doing a lot of road trips, and everywhere I go, I see a lot of people who are not like us, busy working their tail off, so that we can enjoy our middle class life style. I'm of course not sure if they're illegal, but a lot of them don't speak English. I also don't want to use Hispanics as scapegoats.
I read 40% of illegals arrive thru an airport, not crossing the border by land.
They came legally and overstayed. So closing the land borders will not help much.
Birchwood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2014, 05:36 PM   #33
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 2,745
For every illegal immigrant not filing tax, there is an employer benefiting from exploiting their labor. This is so prevalent in our society that if we magically remove all the illegal immigrants from US, many business will fail and the US economy will collapse. Ditto for Made In China products. If we magically remove all M-I-China products from our store shelves, inflation will go through the roof and economy can go haywire.
robnplunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2014, 06:58 PM   #34
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: aberdeen
Posts: 267
Agree with Robnplunder.
I don't think there is any real solution as long as the other countries are so poor, and US is relatively more prosperous. There will always be people willing to try to come, legal or not. BTW, I agree if we magically make this folks get lost, the whole US economy will suffer. If we get rid of all foreign born health care workers in US, we are going to have a health catastrophe.
It is almost the same in Europe, in a recent trip some of the folks I saw doing menial job are immigrants(legal or not) I don't know.
Birchwood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2014, 08:09 PM   #35
Full time employment: Posting here.
CaliforniaMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: San Diego
Posts: 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by Birchwood View Post
Legal or illegal, a group of people are always going to come here if there are jobs to be filled, that we Americans would not take or if there is as demand for it, that is not being satisfied. Think agriculture!
I have been doing a lot of road trips, and everywhere I go, I see a lot of people who are not like us, busy working their tail off, so that we can enjoy our middle class life style. I'm of course not sure if they're illegal, but a lot of them don't speak English. I also don't want to use Hispanics as scapegoats.
I read 40% of illegals arrive thru an airport, not crossing the border by land.
They came legally and overstayed. So closing the land borders will not help much.
+1 That is why they are called undocumented rather than illegal. They came legally to engage in legal activities but overstayed their visa. Now here is the kicker, extending visas, upgrading your status and immigration law itself is very expensive for most of these people. Not only for the Immigration fees (the department is so much funded by fees it did not even have to shut down when other departments did), also legal fees for lawyers especially for people who's native language is not English. Hey, the forms are difficult even if your native language is English, and you do have college degrees. And figuring out what forms you need is another gotcha. Make one mistake, and you start all over, and often pay again. And the agency is so underfunded, you submit forms and then you hear nothing sometimes for many months. They contact you only when they are good and ready. They don't return phone calls, often there is no phone to call. Many who could stay here legally simply cannot understand or afford the process. Put on top of that employers, knowing their documentation is less than perfect can easily take advantage of them, knowing they have no legal recourse. Rather than being called "illegals" many should simply be called "screwed".
__________________
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily,
Life is but a dream.
CaliforniaMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2014, 08:49 PM   #36
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 26,821
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliforniaMan View Post
+1 That is why they are called undocumented rather than illegal. They came legally to engage in legal activities but overstayed their visa.
And at that point, they are breaking the law, right? That's called 'illegal'.

I'm not commenting on what should be or not, just what is.


Quote:
Now here is the kicker, ... Hey, the forms are difficult even if your native language is English, and you do have college degrees. And figuring out what forms you need is another gotcha. Make one mistake, and you start all over, and often pay again. ... you submit forms and then you hear nothing sometimes for many months. They contact you only when they are good and ready. ...
Sounds like the IRS! Yet, if I don't file my taxes, I'm breaking the law. Not understanding the forms (which IMO, are not written in 'English' - at least not the kind most English speakers can understand).

Again, I'm not defending the current laws, but we can't say we aren't breaking them just because we may not agree with them.

-ERD50
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2014, 06:49 AM   #37
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
photoguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,301
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
And at that point, they are breaking the law, right? That's called 'illegal'.
For as long as I can remember people have used the term "illegal immigrant" but recently there's been a big push to avoid it. Part of the justification (perhaps the main justification?) is because using the term "illegal" to describe a person is considered dehumanizing and that the term is not used in other areas (e.g. we don't call people with traffic violations "illegal drivers").

NPR had an interesting perspective in a recent article:
Quote:
Jonathan Rosa, a linguistic anthropologist at the University of Massachusetts, told NPR that both phrases muddle the conversation about immigration reform.

" 'Undocumented' and 'illegal' seem to be signaling one's stance when it comes to immigration reform than it is about characterizing the situation in a precise way," Rosa said. He said the State Department's definition of immigrant explicitly refers to lawful status, making the term "illegal immigrant" a contradiction. But undocumented immigrant doesn't quite fit either because the term "makes it seem as though there's [just been] an administrative mistake, as if a document wasn't issued."
In Immigration Debate, 'Undocumented' Vs. 'Illegal' Is More Than Just Semantics : It's All Politics : NPR

I agree with Rosa that undocumented doesn't seem like an accurate description either.

Later in the same article Rosa suggests using the term "unauthorized migrant". It seems like an accurate description that is less loaded than the other terms (I can accept that description).
photoguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2014, 07:14 AM   #38
Administrator
MichaelB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 40,586
"What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet."
MichaelB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2014, 07:59 AM   #39
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 26,821
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB View Post
"What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet."
I think the food marketing industry would disagree with old Willy.

"Pink Slime" anyone?

-ERD50
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2014, 08:15 AM   #40
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Crownsville
Posts: 3,711
Quote:
Originally Posted by razztazz View Post
Not implying any intent on your part but just wanting to clarify my own previous post. I for one agree with you. Although cheap labor at the bottom can have an effect on generally suppressing wages throughout the totem pole, all the illegals are not keeping Ralph Kramden from driving his bus or Fred McMurray from designing airplanes, or Mr Howell from milking his cow.
And in keeping in that vein, when they let Little Emanuel go down at the loading dock, suddenly Archie Bunker, Stretch Cunningham, and Black Elmo had to work a LOT harder...because Little Emanuel worked his butt off while the others slacked off, told dumb jokes, etc...

I don't know if there's any merit to this, but I've heard a lot of illegals end up getting low-wage jobs with fake ID's and such, and actually do pay into Social Security. But, their intent is to move back to their home country long before they reach retirement age. So many of them are paying into it, but will never collect.
Andre1969 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Fear and Hope - Secular bear market dex FIRE and Money 8 09-29-2008 08:59 PM
"Secular Bear Market"? FIREd FIRE and Money 23 01-16-2008 08:21 AM
Retiring In Secular Cycles Tadpole FIRE and Money 138 02-21-2007 10:38 PM
secular bear market NYCGuy FIRE and Money 55 03-14-2006 12:54 AM

» Quick Links

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:26 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.