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Self Directed IRA
Old 10-25-2006, 10:43 PM   #1
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Self Directed IRA

Hey does any know anything about having a self directed ira own 100% of the llc. I know ira's (sep, trad, roth, etc) can not own an s-corp due to the s-corp rules and how an ira can own real estate (purchasing, improvements, leverage and consequences of unrelated taxable business income.) In my research I see a 1000 to 1 advertising real estate iras but not really an ira owning an llc.

I have seen the ira checkbook (california?) but just wondering when filing the Form SS-4 (requesting a tax id number) do you use the custodians tax id number? I am dealing with a single member llc which would disregard the entity for tax purposes. I understand how a partnership would work filing the SS-4 then transfering the units\interest in the ira or purchase the units, then file Form 1065.
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Re: Self Directed IRA
Old 10-26-2006, 08:31 AM   #2
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Re: Self Directed IRA

Talk to Sterling Trust in TX. They do a lot of self-directed IRA's that have real estate. I am a member in a real estate LLC that is through my IRA with Sterling. Note that you can only be a non-participating member for IRA purposes. If you actively engage in the LLC business in your IRA, you will be in a lot of trouble with the IRS.

I will be actively participating in a new LLC in the next few months. I was going to split up my percentage participation in the LLC as a passive member through my IRA and another percentage as an active investor (lease up/property management in my case). This is not allowed. If you are in some way activley involved in the LLC that can effect the performance of the LLC, you can not do it through your IRA. So, if you are in control of the LLC and are the one writing checks, directing developments etc., you can not do it through an IRA even though the LLC is the owner on paper.

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Re: Self Directed IRA
Old 10-26-2006, 09:31 AM   #3
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Re: Self Directed IRA

Look at IRS publication 590 which identifies prohibited transactions. www.irs.gov/publications/p590/index.html

Also, you might want to review this thread which discusses some other issues with owning real estate (whether in an LLC or not) in an IRA:

http://early-retirement.org/forums/i...4011#msg114011

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Re: Self Directed IRA
Old 10-26-2006, 10:11 AM   #4
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Re: Self Directed IRA

And don't try any funny stuff like "investing" in a "friend's" shell LLC through your IRA and then getting creative like pumping money selling your services to the LLC, or "gifting" money to other people which they in turn use to pay for benefits received from the LLC.
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Re: Self Directed IRA
Old 10-26-2006, 06:24 PM   #5
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Re: Self Directed IRA

Hey I finally received the information I was looking for regarding a self directed ira owning 100% of the llc. The reason for my original question was because I was hoping to find a "professional" (cpa\attorney) no offense to the ones that already responded, that might have personally jumped into the self directed ira arena other than the real estate side.

Here is what I found out: Your IRA can own 100% of your LLC and can perform any legal activity to generate revenue as long as you do not perform a prohibited transaction or receive a self benefit.

For example your 60 year old man and you need additional income to live. So instead of working for someonelse you decide you want to start a business that picks up dog dodo in people's yard (it amazes but people do this). The first step you do is retain a lawyer pay $500 to create an llc and complete the Form SS-4 (tax id application) with the name of business on line one and line three your name and social security #. You have no employees, so make n\a in the appropriate section. Call up some self directed ira company to setup the ira, transfer minimum funds to the new ira from an existingira , direct the trust company to forward the funds to the bank account under the new llc and tax id number and start advertising your business.

Next thing you know client's (dogs) are calling to setup their weekly appointments and you begin generating income. Deposit the income and pay any related bills you have with the business, reimbursement for fuel, etc. So now the million dollar question, how do you pay yourself? Because you are older than 59 1/2 you take an ira distribution. Just forward funds from the llc checking account, made payable to your ira and the ira custodian cuts you a check. Need these many steps to keep it legal with the irs.

Wow what a concept! Lets take it one more step, what happens if you are the beneficary of a Roth IRA due to death and you are age thirty. At this point you are forced to take minimum distributions tax free over your life time. Let's say the roth has $300k. So invest the roth into a business that it owns 100%, you activity work the business and receive compensation by taking the distribution tax free. There is w-2, no federal or state taxes, no social security, no medicare, and no health benefits. If the entity paid for your health insurance that would be considered and self dealing (not good). God will my kids have it made.

The worst part about all of this is that your current ira custodian does not know nor do they openly tell you about these concepts because they do not make a dime. It does not benefit them for you to control your own funds. I believe the reason why most of the advertisement related to self directed ira's are pushing real estate is because they can charge additional fees for depositing your rent payment, paying your bills related to the property and charge a fee on the HUD. Bastards! Leave them out of it. Create the llc, open an ira, transfer minimum funds or as much as you can to purchase the real estate with out any debt to stay away from the unrelated taxable business income (load of crap), and start making money. My only recommendation is that it is extremely easy to trip over one of the prohibited transactions. So if you are brave enough to leap into this world, tread lightly. Not because what you are doing is illegal, it just has some easy pit falls that could make your entire IRA taxable today.

A person above said you can not have your IRA own some % of your llc and you own the other % personally. This is not entirely true. As long as you are receiving reasonable compensation and do not personally benefit from the ira then you are eligible for this type of setup. Most advisors - accountants, attorneys, financial advisors, self directed ira custodians tell you no, because this type of setup is a very fine line to walk and could easily be viewed as self dealing and your entire ira could be taxable today.

So how do you get around it. Create an llc, have your ira own 49% of it and your s-corp own the other 51%. Start a business that generates real income from third parties - do not take any compensation from the llc, let the profits roll 49% to the ira and 51% to s-corp and pay yourself and health benefits from the s-corp.

My suggestion I would not use a self directed ira unless I was assured of being able to generate additonal income in my ira that is more than the annual contribution. Profits are different than contributions. If you are past the threshold of $150k agi married filing jointly or $90k agi (i think) for single and head of house hold or married filing seperate and greater than $10k income - you are not eligible to make a contribution to the roth or traditional. But if you formed the roth prior to your income being above any of the thresholds stated above, it would be perfectly legal to generate profits in your ira that are greater than any contribution you could make.

Awesome if you have the know how. Very scary if you do not.

Thanks for the input!!!
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Re: Self Directed IRA
Old 10-26-2006, 06:51 PM   #6
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Re: Self Directed IRA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddie
Hey I finally received the information I was looking for regarding a self directed ira owning 100% of the llc. The reason for my original question was because I was hoping to find a "professional" (cpa\attorney) no offense to the ones that already responded, that might have personally jumped into the self directed ira arena other than the real estate side.

Here is what I found out: Your IRA can own 100% of your LLC and can perform any legal activity to generate revenue as long as you do not perform a prohibited transaction or receive a self benefit.
Yup. That is all in the publication 590 I mentioned above.

Quote:
For example your 60 year old man and you need additional income to live. So instead of working for someonelse you decide you want to start a business that picks up dog dodo in people's yard (it amazes but people do this). The first step you do is retain a lawyer pay $500 to create an llc and complete the Form SS-4 (tax id application) with the name of business on line one and line three your name and social security #. You have no employees, so make n\a in the appropriate section. Call up some self directed ira company to setup the ira, transfer minimum funds to the new ira from an existingira , direct the trust company to forward the funds to the bank account under the new llc and tax id number and start advertising your business.

Next thing you know client's (dogs) are calling to setup their weekly appointments and you begin generating income. Deposit the income and pay any related bills you have with the business, reimbursement for fuel, etc. So now the million dollar question, how do you pay yourself? Because you are older than 59 1/2 you take an ira distribution. Just forward funds from the llc checking account, made payable to your ira and the ira custodian cuts you a check. Need these many steps to keep it legal with the irs.
Bad idea. The income from this business is all unrelated business income and will be taxed at the high trust rate.

Quote:
Wow what a concept! Lets take it one more step, what happens if you are the beneficary of a Roth IRA due to death and you are age thirty. At this point you are forced to take minimum distributions tax free over your life time. Let's say the roth has $300k. So invest the roth into a business that it owns 100%, you activity work the business and receive compensation by taking the distribution tax free. There is w-2, no federal or state taxes, no social security, no medicare, and no health benefits. If the entity paid for your health insurance that would be considered and self dealing (not good). God will my kids have it made.
Same problem. Plus, there may be others as well. Arguably, if you perform services you should be paid reasonable compensation for those services.

Quote:
The worst part about all of this is that your current ira custodian does not know nor do they openly tell you about these concepts because they do not make a dime. It does not benefit them for you to control your own funds. I believe the reason why most of the advertisement related to self directed ira's are pushing real estate is because they can charge additional fees for depositing your rent payment, paying your bills related to the property and charge a fee on the HUD. Bastards! Leave them out of it. Create the llc, open an ira, transfer minimum funds or as much as you can to purchase the real estate with out any debt to stay away from the unrelated taxable business income (load of crap), and start making money.
It isn't only debt that creates UBIT.

Quote:
My only recommendation is that it is extremely easy to trip over one of the prohibited transactions. So if you are brave enough to leap into this world, tread lightly. Not because what you are doing is illegal, it just has some easy pit falls that could make your entire IRA taxable today.

A person above said you can not have your IRA own some % of your llc and you own the other % personally. This is not entirely true. As long as you are receiving reasonable compensation and do not personally benefit from the ira then you are eligible for this type of setup. Most advisors - accountants, attorneys, financial advisors, self directed ira custodians tell you no, because this type of setup is a very fine line to walk and could easily be viewed as self dealing and your entire ira could be taxable today.

So how do you get around it. Create an llc, have your ira own 49% of it and your s-corp own the other 51%. Start a business that generates real income from third parties - do not take any compensation from the llc, let the profits roll 49% to the ira and 51% to s-corp and pay yourself and health benefits from the s-corp.

My suggestion I would not use a self directed ira unless I was assured of being able to generate additonal income in my ira that is more than the annual contribution. Profits are different than contributions. If you are past the threshold of $150k agi married filing jointly or $90k agi (i think) for single and head of house hold or married filing seperate and greater than $10k income - you are not eligible to make a contribution to the roth or traditional. But if you formed the roth prior to your income being above any of the thresholds stated above, it would be perfectly legal to generate profits in your ira that are greater than any contribution you could make.

Awesome if you have the know how. Very scary if you do not.

Thanks for the input!!!
Where did you get your information? From a tax professional or a lawyer? There are a number of issues with what you propose. I know you said tread lightly, but I don't see how you escape the UBIT.
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Re: Self Directed IRA
Old 10-26-2006, 09:39 PM   #7
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Re: Self Directed IRA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddie

A person above said you can not have your IRA own some % of your llc and you own the other % personally. This is not entirely true. As long as you are receiving reasonable compensation and do not personally benefit from the ira then you are eligible for this type of setup. Most advisors - accountants, attorneys, financial advisors, self directed ira custodians tell you no, because this type of setup is a very fine line to walk and could easily be viewed as self dealing and your entire ira could be taxable today.

So how do you get around it. Create an llc, have your ira own 49% of it and your s-corp own the other 51%. Start a business that generates real income from third parties - do not take any compensation from the llc, let the profits roll 49% to the ira and 51% to s-corp and pay yourself and health benefits from the s-corp.

Awesome if you have the know how. Very scary if you do not.
Please go ahead...... You are very creative.

I will not mess around with this and I will gladly accept my missed chances. Martha hits all the shortcomings right on the head. The IRS can blow a giant hole in this in 5 minutes. It is very obvious that you will have a direct influence/participation in this venture regardless behind which LLC or INC name or whatever you try to hide behind while you work for free.

Explain this to the IRA company you are going to sign up with. Most likely they will require a written lawyer's opinion (which is in your best interest) if they don't flat out tell you no. If you got these ideas from a lawyer or CPA, I would request this whole story on paper with their signature. If you do violate the IRS regulations of self-dealing, they can be instructed to pay out all your IRA money - and not only the one you have your creative LLC in. Tax is due immediately too - bye, bye retirement. You go ahead, but I don't walk this 'fine line' (not even a fine line in my opinion)

There is a good reason self-directed IRA's often hold real estate. Real estate can be a highly leveraged investment vehicle that can easily be managed by someone else such as a property management company.

Now, I believe your next biggest hurdle is to find an IRA custodian to take this project on.

Good luck with it,

Vicky
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Re: Self Directed IRA
Old 10-27-2006, 03:09 AM   #8
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Re: Self Directed IRA

real estate in an ira is probley going to turn out to be a blatant violation of tax laws.

all the benefits of owning real estate are gone . no depreciation write
off, no step up in basis if you die, no lower capital gains when you sell..... cant get a loan with ira or 401k as colatoral. if you move into a home you bought thru an ira it becomes fully taxable based on market value




yep sounds like a good idea to me....
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Re: Self Directed IRA
Old 10-27-2006, 08:06 AM   #9
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Re: Self Directed IRA

I own real estate LLC's in my IRA's and they are doing just fine. I am happy with doubling my money every 3-5 years just from capital gains. These are leveraged large commercial investments with mortgages. Yes, you can get a mortgage. IRA is just non-recourse. It is correct that there are no lower capital gains when they are sold - there are just no capital gain taxes due period.

These are multi-million dolllar developments and have been checked out in-and-out by lawyers and CPA's and there are no violations of tax laws. They have been audited by the IRS and there are no issues. I own the same type of real estate investments outside of my IRA and there I do get very large annual write offs. However, because of our income these passive losses can not be written off currently but have to be taken against the sale of the property. This reduces capital gains but it less of an advantage.

Vicky
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Re: Self Directed IRA
Old 10-27-2006, 09:17 AM   #10
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Re: Self Directed IRA

Three other issues:
1.) State incorporation laws & excise tax laws (Hawaii has an excise tax, not a sales tax).
2.) What happens if the business needs an infusion of capital greater than the IRA contribution limits? Would it be likely to qualify for a loan if it needs a capital infusion?
3.) What happens if the RMD is larger than the amount of cash that the IRA can pump out?
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Re: Self Directed IRA
Old 10-27-2006, 11:35 AM   #11
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Re: Self Directed IRA

Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak107
real estate in an ira is probley going to turn out to be a blatant violation of tax laws.

all the benefits of owning real estate are gone . no depreciation write
off, no step up in basis if you die, no lower capital gains when you sell..... cant get a loan with ira or 401k as colatoral. if you move into a home you bought thru an ira it becomes fully taxable based on market value

yep sounds like a good idea to me....
There is no law violation by putting real estate in an IRA, but your points are valid as they list some of the "cons" associated with this type of deal.
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Re: Self Directed IRA
Old 10-27-2006, 12:19 PM   #12
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Re: Self Directed IRA

Quote:
Originally Posted by vic
It is correct that there are no lower capital gains when they are sold - there are just no capital gain taxes due period.
Good in a Roth IRA where there are no taxes at all.

Potentially bad in a traditional IRA where the income will be taxed at ordinary tax rates instead of LTCG tax rates.
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Re: Self Directed IRA
Old 10-28-2006, 04:16 AM   #13
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Re: Self Directed IRA

the problem like nords said is not the buying of real estate itself as thats an open ended loophole that just dosnt say you cant in the tax laws but the problems are the associated stuff.

how do you get rental income into the ira without getting taxed 2x on it if you already maxed out the ira?. can you just throw it in like a dividend? im not sure

custodial problems can be a nightmare

getting loans

having enough cash to do major repairs or capital improvements from ira money only.

im not against real estate in an ira but i prefer an unlisted reit myself.
just tooooo many headaches and liabilities and walking a fine line with the irs for my taste.
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Re: Self Directed IRA
Old 10-28-2006, 10:11 AM   #14
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Re: Self Directed IRA

Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak107

how do you get rental income into the ira without getting taxed 2x on it if you already maxed out the ira?. can you just throw it in like a dividend? im not sure
Unlike the other issues you raised, which are potential problems, this one is not a problem. The asset in the IRA is generating the rents so you don't have to get them into the IRA, they already are there.

The situation where rental property in an IRA, in particular a Roth IRA, seems to make the most sense is in large real estate investments where your IRA is a passive investor and the property can obtain non-recourse debt. Much like Vicky described.
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Re: Self Directed IRA
Old 10-30-2006, 06:40 PM   #15
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Re: Self Directed IRA

Martha,

I apprepricate your response to my email regarding the 60 yr old man starting a new business. I have spent countless hours researching your responses and of course it's like reading a foreign language.

For the most part I now understand how an ira can own real estate directly or through an llc owned by an ira. I understand the UBTI that is created when debt is entered into the equation. The one part that is unclear is how much can you actively participate with business? It would seem to me that you can advertise for a renter (costs paid by the ira), sign the lease agreement on behalf of the ira, collect the rent, chase down the renter for payment, pay for improvements to the real estate (paid by the ira). Can the ira owner perform the actual repairs themselves?

Can we try another scenario - Company X, an llc taxed as a partnership, owned by A, B,& C. A, B, & C wish to create another business Company Z with E, a current employee of Company X. Company Z will be owned 50% personally by E, 15% by A's IRA, 15% by B's IRA, 15% by C's IRA and 5% owned by E's IRA. E is an employee of Company Z and no longer receives compensation from Company X.

Can E actively work for Company Z, receive a reasonable compensation and issue dividends to all shareholders?

Can Company X charge Company Z overhead costs for use of telephone, utilities, office supplies and office space?

Ultimately office space is rented from A. Would this constitute self-dealing or prohibited transaction?

Can A, B & C activitely direct business to Company Z without triggering self dealing?

At the end of the day, it's best to loan money from your ira or purchase real estate that would truely make the any income generated tax free through the use of an llc owned by the ira. Do you agree?

At the same time, you could have the custodian direct the funds at your will without an entity (llc) but it is time cosuming and not cost effective. Do you agree?

I have researched self directed companies such as The Equity Trucst Company and Pensco. Who do you use?

Thank you for your input.

Freddie
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Re: Self Directed IRA
Old 10-31-2006, 08:31 AM   #16
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Re: Self Directed IRA

Freddie, to answer all the questions in your last post sounds too much like work to me.

If you are thinking of ways of having an IRA own real estate or another business, it really is time to sit down with a professional.

If you are doing some of your own research, besides the publications I pointed you to, I suggest you read the statute defining prohibited transactions. Here is a link: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/script...le=26&sec=4975

(c) Prohibited transaction
(1) General rule
For purposes of this section, the term "prohibited transaction"
means any direct or indirect -
(A) sale or exchange, or leasing, of any property between a
plan and a disqualified person;
(B) lending of money or other extension of credit between a
plan and a disqualified person;
(C) furnishing of goods, services, or facilities between a
plan and a disqualified person;
(D) transfer to, or use by or for the benefit of, a
disqualified person of the income or assets of a plan;
(E) act by a disqualified person who is a fiduciary whereby
he deals with the income or assets of a plan in his own
interests or for his own account; or
(F) receipt of any consideration for his own personal account
by any disqualified person who is a fiduciary from any party
dealing with the plan in connection with a transaction
involving the income or assets of the plan.


Specifically note section C, furnishing of goods, services, or facilities between a
plan and a disqualified person


Here is a link to the definition of a disqualified person:

http://www.irs.gov/retirement/articl...3722,00.html#3
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Re: Self Directed IRA
Old 10-31-2006, 02:19 PM   #17
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Re: Self Directed IRA

Thanks Martha.....
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Old 04-19-2008, 01:24 PM   #18
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I think what Freddie wants to do in his real estate investments -- act as the property manager -- can be done with a self-directed IRA LLC. Note this is different from a self-directed IRA owning an LLC. The IRA itself is set up as an LLC, and you control the checkbook.

See Self Directed IRA FAQs | 401k Advisor IRA Real Estate Roth Traditional.

On an unrelated note, the non-qualified persons list does not include siblings, only lineal ancestors, descendants, and spouses of lineal descendants. If I had a brother, I could set up a self-directed IRA LLC to buy a property for my brother to rent while he buys me a property for me to rent. My rent payment is his IRA's tax-deferred income, and his rent is my IRA's tax-deferred income. At retirement, we do a house swap. Of course, the houses will count as a distribution, so they'd better not be super fancy. And of course, not everybody has dependable brothers.
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