Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Re: Selling a house
Old 09-23-2005, 03:16 PM   #21
Moderator Emeritus
Martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: minnesota
Posts: 13,212
Re: Selling a house

Feels to me like the buyer doesn't have much of any cash. Take the offer if you "clarify" with the realtor that the commission comes out of the net. No commision is paid on the cash back as nothing is going to you and if you can, no commission on the costs you are incurring.

In my area, custom says no commission on any cash back to the buyer.

Otherwise, take the money and run.

If you are in the mood to negotiate, put a cap on the amount of cash you have to pay to comply with inspection reports.
__________________

__________________
.


No more lawyer stuff, no more political stuff, so no more CYA

Martha is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Re: Selling a house
Old 09-23-2005, 03:37 PM   #22
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,083
Re: Selling a house

I have only owed 2 houses and am not familiar with this type of RE transaction, but outside of the realtor's possible higher commission, what benefit does the seller get in accepting $10k over the asking price if the seller is expected to credit back that $10k to the buyer.

__________________

__________________
I look to the present moment because that's where I live my life.
MJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Selling a house
Old 09-23-2005, 04:16 PM   #23
Moderator Emeritus
Nords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,617
Re: Selling a house

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ
if the seller is expected to credit back that $10k to the buyer.*
"Take back" refers to the buyer borrowing $10K from the seller and paying some attractive interest rate for a short-term loan. The seller "takes back" paper from the buyer.

Buyers that do this for such a small amount (I'm guessing the home is selling for at least $400K?) are often speculators and recent graduates of a Kiyosaki or Carlton Sheets "Make money quick!" real estate "seminar".
__________________
*
*

The book written on E-R.org, "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement", on sale now! For more info see "About Me" in my profile.
I don't spend much time here anymore, so please send me a PM. Thanks.
Nords is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Selling a house
Old 09-23-2005, 05:11 PM   #24
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,875
Re: Selling a house

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords
"Take back" refers to the buyer borrowing $10K from the seller and paying some attractive interest rate for a short-term loan.* The seller "takes back" paper from the buyer.

Buyers that do this for such a small amount (I'm guessing the home is selling for at least $400K?) are often speculators and recent graduates of a Kiyosaki or Carlton Sheets "Make money quick!" real estate "seminar".
Carlton Sheets is a sharp guy. Never bought his program
(I know it all already) ........................But, I can tell you for dead
solid certain that he knows his RE, inside and out.

JG
__________________
MRGALT2U is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Selling a house
Old 09-23-2005, 05:12 PM   #25
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 159
Re: Selling a house

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords
Buyers that do this for such a small amount (I'm guessing the home is selling for at least $400K?) are often speculators and recent graduates of a Kiyosaki or Carlton Sheets "Make money quick!" real estate "seminar".
I can hear it now: "I bought a $400K home with nothing down and walked away with a check for $10K!"

malakito
__________________
malakito is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Selling a house
Old 09-23-2005, 06:31 PM   #26
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Minnehaha
Posts: 2,375
Re: Selling a house

Quote:
Originally Posted by malakito
Negotiate hard on this deal and try to slow it down to allow other listings to come in. Ignore what your realtor's advice is; he or she is working for the sale, not for you.

If this first buyer wants to pay $10K more for the house than you're asking, insist they pay any resulting increases in your costs because of this. For example, since your realtor commission is maybe 6%, make them pay you 6% of $10K.

Regarding all of the "seller pays for" vs. "buyer pays for" items, that's all just blowing smoke in your face. At the end of the day you'll walk away from the deal with $X in cash. Seller pays/buyer pays just moves $X up or down by a few hundred or thousand dollars. Focus on $X. Decide on what you think $X should be / is fair / represents a good deal and compare it to what you're getting offered.

good luck,

malakito

P.S. -- There's a chapter about real estate agents in the book "Freakonomics" which is a new book out. It basically says that the added benefit to the agent of waiting for a better deal is only 6% of the delta, which probably amounts to only a couple hundred bucks. But when realtors sell their own houses, they're more likely to hold out and get a substantially better deal.
malakito - I've slowed it down - had our Mn lawyer look over purchase agreement today - nothing jumped out at him, except he doesn't like the arbitration dispute resolution paragraph even though it looks standard - monday he will call our Ca. lawyer to get his take. So, I pushed back on the realtor and told her to let the buyers look at the house and I'll get back to her on monday. Having a weekend for potentials to get a look couldn't hurt, and gives the couple a chance to find out if they really want to do it and also gets our comfort level in place.
I didn't think about the extra $500 (5%)commision! I'll make a point of bringing it up. I should send you a check for $250 for that?

I get the feeling that my realtor wants a fast deal.
Yesterday: Realtor: Today, I received a very good offer on your Acacia property
This Morning: R: The offer is what I consider a very "clean and straightforward offer". The fees and inspections that the seller is to pay is normal and customary for our area. Your closing costs should run approximately 1% (this includes fees, inspections, disclosures, etc.). The $10,000 credit to the buyer is fairly common -- they are just wanting to finance their costs and this is reflected in the purchase price. Since the property is tenant occupied, buyers can only inspect the interior with an acceptable offer
Later - Me: Are you saying they can't look at the property until we accept their offer?
R: I've left a message with the buyer's agent to go ahead and set up a showing prior to acceptance ......Thanks malakito!
__________________
MinnesotaEats - www.goodfoodmsp.com
Danny is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Selling a house
Old 09-23-2005, 06:37 PM   #27
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Minnehaha
Posts: 2,375
Re: Selling a house

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords
You might want to consider what your cap gain would be as the offer stands now and how much more % you would get by the above approach. 5%? 10%?

How much harder are you willing to work for those higher offers? I don't mean slaving and sweating, I mean the hassle of offer/counteroffer negotiations, tenants, & Sunday open houses. Plus your realtor will be audibly pouty & fussy when they bring in an above-market offer and you just nod & smile to wait for more...

Or you could just take the money and RUN!!!!!
Exactly, I'm retired now. I want to take it easy until its time to Take the Money and Run!
__________________
MinnesotaEats - www.goodfoodmsp.com
Danny is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Selling a house
Old 09-23-2005, 06:43 PM   #28
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Minnehaha
Posts: 2,375
Re: Selling a house

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martha
Feels to me like the buyer doesn't have much of any cash.

In my area, custom says no commission on any cash back to the buyer.

Otherwise, take the money and run.

If you are in the mood to negotiate, put a cap on the amount of cash you have to pay to comply with inspection reports.
$20,000 down and $314,000 30 year 6.25% 1st and a $81,000 9% 2nd. 10,000 financed for closing costs
That would never be allowed "back in the day".
I'll remember about taking out the take back from the commission. I like the idea of a cap on complying...thank you
__________________
MinnesotaEats - www.goodfoodmsp.com
Danny is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Selling a house
Old 09-23-2005, 07:10 PM   #29
Moderator Emeritus
Nords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,617
Re: Selling a house

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanTien
I didn't think about the extra $500 (5%)commision! I'll make a point of bringing it up. I should send you a check for $250 for that?*
Nah, just send it to Dory for the server upgrades.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MRGALT2U
Carlton Sheets is a sharp guy. Never bought his program (I know it all already) ........................But, I can tell you for dead solid certain that he knows his RE, inside and out. JG
Oh, he's sharp all right. Here's what John T. Reed thinks of Sheets. (This below text is text only. The website's text contains many more links which may be of further interest.)

Carleton H. Sheets a.k.a. Carlton Sheets, Carleton Sheets, Carelton Sheets (Stuart, FL): I do not recommend.

Mark Holocek, Sheets’ associate, was kind enough to send me two boxes of Sheets books and tapes. I put my analysis of them on a separate page.

I previously described Sheets as a former Al Lowry instructor. He wrote me a letter saying he wasn’t a Lowry instructor. The letter also complained about being “lumped with Robert Allen.” I have since learned that Sheets was a pitchman for Nothing Down author Robert Allen, that is, he was the guy who made speeches to get people to sign up for Allen’s weekend seminar. Seems to me Sheets should have mentioned that in his letter to me.

He also protested that he no longer does infomercials from a yacht in Florida, although he admits he “did one scene from a yacht 12 or 14 years ago.”

In his letter to me, Sheets bragged that he recently did a nothing-down purchase. I asked for the address and name of the lender. No response.

Sheets’ letter says he has been a “full-time real estate investor for nearly 29 years.” The phrase “full-time real estate investor” catches my eye. Such people are rare. Most of the real-estate millionaires I know only do it part-time. It’s kind of the nature of real estate: part business and part investment. Sheets’ partner Mark Holocek admitted to me that Sheets now spends less than 40 hours per week on real estate investment, “but that’s all he does.” Well, except for appearing in infomercials.

In his letter to me, Sheets claimed, “I...am buying, selling and rehabbing property on a weekly basis.” I asked him for the addresses of the properties he had bought, sold, or rehabbed in the last three months. No response.

Why would a guru brag to me about his purchases, sales, and rehabs, then refuse to provide addresses, especially when he ought to know I am going to tell my readers about it? It can’t be privacy. All real estate transactions, including lenders, are publicly recorded. Rehab generally requires a building permit, which is also public. Some gurus refuse to provide addresses because they simply did not do the deals at all; others, because there is something about the deal which would embarrass them. I do not know Sheets’ motivation for not responding to my request for addresses and a lender name. I encourage FL readers to try to track down his deals and tell me about them.

I have listed every property I ever owned in the about-the-author section of this Web site. My book How to Buy Real Estate for at Least 20% Below Market Value contains 166 actual case histories and includes the address of the property in question whenever the investor gave me permission to do so. I also include property addresses as well as investor names and phone numbers in my newsletter articles whenever the investor lets me. Whenever a guru brags about a deal, ask him for an address so you can check it out. If he refuses to provide the address, leave.

I am told by someone other than Sheets that he is one of another rare breed. He is not a self-employed guru. Rather he has some sort of partnership or independent contractor relationship with the guys who actually promote and sell the Carleton Sheets home-study course. If that’s the case, he may be able to invest most of the time, but not “full-time.” I guarantee you that no guru who owns and runs his own guru business has time to also invest “full-time.”

As I said in my Real Estate B.S. Artist Detection Checklist article, “Gurus get the same 24-hour days as you. Being an expert takes time. They have to read many trade journals, loose-leaf services, and books to keep up to date. They have to spend hours on the phone interviewing sources for their articles and books and hours in the library researching legal cases and other relevant facts.

“As experts, gurus get interviewed by the media on the phone and in radio and TV studios and they make speeches to investors.”

Although Sheets’ prices seem relatively low, once you order you will find that you are repeatedly pressured to buy more expensive products. His inexpensive products are deliberately left vague and incomplete to get you to buy more expensive products. Here’s an email I got from one of Sheets’ customers about attempts to sell him other things. Here are other emails about Sheets.

A couple of people have told me they made a lot of money in real estate because of Sheets. I don’t believe it. I have read a considerable portion of his material and have yet to find any ideas that would lead to anyone making money.

At worst, the people who have contacted me are simply shills who are lying. At best, they are sincere people who did, in fact, get into real estate and make money, but they are erroneously attributing their success to Sheets. If you truly think Sheets’ advice made you money, please tell me which one of Sheets’ books gave you the ideas you used to make money, and the page and line numbers of the idea or ideas in question. I suspect that if any of these people are sincere, they will be surprised to find that they cannot cite a single specific piece of Sheets’ advice that helped them, other than his general statement that you can make money in real estate. [Note: This request has been on this site for many months. I have yet to hear from a single investor who can point to a quote in a Sheets’ book and say it made him money.]

The real-estate world has long been inhabited by thousands of successful people who got into real estate because of some bogus guru, could not make money with the guru ideas they had so expensively purchased, but ended up discovering other, legitimate ways to make money in real estate on their own. Most of these folks are intelligent enough to recognize that they were taken by the guru and succeeded more in spite of him than because of him. But a small percentage of people are sufficiently dimwitted and easily manipulated that they retain their love for their guru long after they should have noticed that his stuff really did not work and they actually made their money using a different approach.
__________________
*
*

The book written on E-R.org, "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement", on sale now! For more info see "About Me" in my profile.
I don't spend much time here anymore, so please send me a PM. Thanks.
Nords is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Selling a house
Old 09-23-2005, 07:45 PM   #30
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
wabmester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 4,459
Re: Selling a house

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brat
I understand the value of the fee of the selling realtor. *The value of a full fee to the listing realtor troubles me when for about $500 the home can be listed on MLS, a professional appraisal costs $400 and a realestate attorney (who should be involved in any case) costs about $1,000. *Listing realtors out there sell me ....
Well, I'm sure this is no secret to you, but realtors are part of a monopoly. The listing fee/commission has nothing to do with how much it costs them to sell your home. You are paying a monopoly tax. There are realtors who will put your home in the MLS for a relatively low fixed fee, but what you will find is that your listing will basically be black-listed. Your home will be excluded from the insiders' listing tour, and you may find that your listing is not being presented to buyers by other agents. You can still sell your house this way, but you'll basically need buyers to drive the process, and you should ensure that your listing makes it clear that the selling agent gets the full 3%.
__________________
wabmester is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Selling a house
Old 09-23-2005, 08:46 PM   #31
Moderator Emeritus
Nords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,617
Re: Selling a house

Quote:
Originally Posted by wabmester
and you should ensure that your listing makes it clear that the selling agent gets the full 3%.
Shouldn't that read "buyer's agent"? And that should add: ... once the seller has closed on a full-price offer!!

When we've sold houses by owner we've done everything that the Nolo book recommends. We've also put a bunch of offer forms on the table for prospective buyers, although REAL buyers already have their own copies. Most of the people at the open house are clueless, but out of 50-100 lookers you'll suddenly come across someone who asks for your phone number. They usually follow up the next evening with an offer and it's usually all you need to see. They won't use a realtor either.

We've only sold two houses by owner, one in Hawaii and one in CA, and this might not be a typical experience, but the buyers' realtors have been pretty pitiful and the REAL buyers didn't use a realtor. Most of the "buyer's realtors" were actually clientless. They hope that the FSBOs get discouraged and are ready to have a realtor rescue them.

The Hawaii realtors are starting to feel some pressure from the Help-U-Sell types. A realtor's commission can run well over $30-$40K here so paying a guy $3995 for an MLS listing seems to be a pretty easy choice.
__________________
*
*

The book written on E-R.org, "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement", on sale now! For more info see "About Me" in my profile.
I don't spend much time here anymore, so please send me a PM. Thanks.
Nords is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Selling a house
Old 09-23-2005, 08:51 PM   #32
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
wabmester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 4,459
Re: Selling a house

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords
Shouldn't that read "buyer's agent"?*
Not as I understand the nomenclature. A buyer's agent represents buyers, whether they buy your place or not. The selling agent is the agent that sells your place. The listing agent simply lists it. Of course, the selling agent may end up being the buyer's agent or the listing agent, or it may be you (in which case, you save 3%).
__________________
wabmester is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Selling a house
Old 09-23-2005, 09:06 PM   #33
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 175
Re: Selling a house

Just bought a house FSBO. Easy..... The owner offered to sell it without the realtor and we could pocket the realtor fees. We got the standard sales form from the TREC (Texas Real Estate Commission) website that every realtor uses. Took one hour to fill out the form with the selling party. Took another 30 minutes at closing. A realtor friend asked why I had not called her to 'help'. More than $10K for 90 minutes of work??

Very pleasant to deal with the owner directly. Just a few weeks early an investment property fell through because the seller's agent was dumb as a rock. He had listed the property including the 1/2 acre which was not the seller's property. I find it too much hassle to talk to the owner through two realtors that want to make the deal go through. They tend to translate things in their own words to make sure there is not a dealbreaker.

We will sell our house FSBO in another few months. We will take the flat fee MLS for $500 which includes the MLS listing and a lockbox (very important!). We will have to go with the 3% buyer's agent's commission to get the realtors over h ere. There are so many realtors out there, negotiating a low listing fee with full service should not be difficult either though.

Vicky
__________________
vic is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Selling a house
Old 09-23-2005, 09:40 PM   #34
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Minnehaha
Posts: 2,375
Re: Selling a house

Quote:
Originally Posted by justin
Bottom line - if you think the offer is fair and accurately represents the value of the property, take it. If you think the property is worth more, hold out for more. The asking price should have been higher if you wanted more though.
Below is a link to the listing. From my Minnesota perspective the offer seems extremely (like insanely) generous, but don't know how the LA market values it yet. I wouldn't mind if more offers developed this weekend-bidding wars do happen there I heard - these people are prequalified up to $500,000.

http://tinyurl.com/apoxr



__________________
MinnesotaEats - www.goodfoodmsp.com
Danny is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Selling a house
Old 09-24-2005, 05:47 AM   #35
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,875
Re: Selling a house

Quote:
Originally Posted by vic
Just bought a house FSBO. Easy..... The owner offered to sell it without the realtor and we could pocket the realtor fees. We got the standard sales form from the TREC (Texas Real Estate Commission) website that every realtor uses. Took one hour to fill out the form with the selling party. Took another 30 minutes at closing. A realtor friend asked why I had not called her to 'help'. More than $10K for 90 minutes of work??

Very pleasant to deal with the owner directly. Just a few weeks early an investment property fell through because the seller's agent was dumb as a rock. He had listed the property including the 1/2 acre which was not the seller's property.* I find it too much hassle to talk to the owner through two realtors that want to make the deal go through. They tend to translate things in their own words to make sure there is not a dealbreaker.

We will sell our house FSBO in another few months. We will take the flat fee MLS for $500 which includes the MLS listing and a lockbox (very important!). We will have to go with the 3% buyer's agent's commission to get the realtors over h ere. There are so many realtors out there, negotiating a low listing fee with full service should not be difficult either though.

Vicky
Been in lots of FSBO deals (as buyer and seller). Never had one "go bad"
due to being a FSBO. Can't recall a realtor screwing up a deal, although
a couple of attorneys made things a bit dicey. The worst situation IMHO
is when you have 2 realtors and both parties to the sale have attorneys.
Can you say "gridlock" ?

JG
__________________
MRGALT2U is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Selling a house
Old 09-24-2005, 06:06 AM   #36
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,875
Re: Selling a house

Too impatient to read all this but I get the point.

I don't know Carlton Sheets. He may be a crook. Never bought his
stuff and don't know anyone who has. However, I know the
things he teaches work because I have done many of them myself.
There are surely lots of other ways to get the knowledge, many
are cheaper I am certain. I am sure most people buy the program and never
use it (or even use it and fail). However, it may be just what some
folks need to get started. A place to begin and a path to follow.
For them, Sheet's info might be worth it's weight in gold.

JG
__________________
MRGALT2U is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Selling a house
Old 09-24-2005, 08:23 AM   #37
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Minnehaha
Posts: 2,375
Re: Selling a house

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords
Nah, just send it to Dory for the server upgrades.
Thanks for the reminder to support dory and his servers from whom all forum blessings flow.
I should really donate at the Sustaining level.
Do you Moderators donate at the Leadership Circle level and have a server named after you?
I need help finding the method to donate..anyone please?
__________________
MinnesotaEats - www.goodfoodmsp.com
Danny is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Selling a house
Old 09-24-2005, 08:45 AM   #38
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,988
Re: Selling a house

DanTien,

dory36 has a "donation location" on his firecalc site, as I recall.

Otherwise, you may want to contact him directly via e-mail.

omni
__________________
omni550 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Selling a house
Old 09-24-2005, 08:49 AM   #39
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Minnehaha
Posts: 2,375
Re: Selling a house

Quote:
Originally Posted by omni550
DanTien,

dory36 has a "donation location" on his firecalc site, as I recall.

Otherwise, you may want to contact him directly via e-mail.

omni
Thanks omni, but not seeing it there
__________________
MinnesotaEats - www.goodfoodmsp.com
Danny is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Selling a house
Old 09-24-2005, 08:52 AM   #40
Moderator Emeritus
Nords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,617
Re: Selling a house

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanTien
Thanks for the reminder to support dory and his servers from whom all forum blessings flow.
I should really donate at the Sustaining level.
Do you Moderators donate at the Leadership Circle level and have a server named after you?
I need help finding the method to donate..anyone please?
FIRECalc's donation link is on this page. *Usually you only see if it you run a scenario and view the results. *(Or you could just click on the link in this paragraph.)

Apparently you have a mistaken impression that there's a correlation between the words "leader" & "moderator", right guys? *We moderators get free coffee (we have to arrange our own delivery) and unlimited FIRECalc runs. *Oh, and 2x overtime after regular working hours... *But, hey, the heartfelt appreciation of the rest of the board members is more than enough compensation. *
__________________

__________________
*
*

The book written on E-R.org, "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement", on sale now! For more info see "About Me" in my profile.
I don't spend much time here anymore, so please send me a PM. Thanks.
Nords is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Buy my first house? Deetso Young Dreamers 21 02-22-2007 02:33 PM
Own a house versus renting; expenses obryanjf FIRE and Money 42 09-23-2006 05:01 PM
HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house! SLC Tortfeasor Young Dreamers 64 02-02-2006 02:21 PM
could use advice on the rental house Caroline FIRE and Money 10 07-26-2005 06:20 PM
A House, not a Home Martha Other topics 41 04-12-2005 05:34 AM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:27 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.