Should I have Quit? Is it too late for a sanity check?

[obgyn65]

Agree. This is why it is so difficult for me to pull the plug. I will never have the same income level when I FIRE. I can practice medicine a couple of days a week, but not the same. And I am only 47, planning for a 48-year time horizon.

Your previous income will be hard to duplicate, and the stress if you ER in a overvalued market* can be considerable, even with a sub 3% SWR.

 

[FUEGO]

Can be true, but as others have pointed out, few of us can ever hope to leave good well paid professional jobs, and go back to anything even in the same ballpark financially. The more demanding the job, the truer this is.

Of course, ymmv, and you have made clear for many years what your intentions are, and how you view it. My comments were intended more for fence sitters. I'm a little over 70, and I have seen a number of things play out. Few of them were made worse by having more resources. I can think of one situation that perhaps qualifies. If someone is trying to qualify for taxpayer funded benefits, it can help to have less.

I guess I have not reached that "good well paid professional job" in my career. I don't think I ever will. I'm still making well under $100,000, although I could step into a role that paid about that much tomorrow IF I were interested in working a lot more, a lot harder, and not being at home as much due to work load and travel requirements. No thanks! To much to see and do right now that is way more fun than work.

Where I am at now in my career for my current employer, I am about $20,000 above the entry level salaries for new college grads. So worst case, at some point in the future after I stop working, I could back track, go back to the current employer doing something a little different but for a $20,000 pay cut. Still ample money to fund our projected expenses plus a little more to pay taxes, work related expenses, etc. I suppose this is the advantage of never making it into the "good well paid professional job" - I can quit working without throwing away a huge income source that would be difficult to replicate.

From my perspective as a 32 year old, I don't know if I'll make it to 70 (odds must be under 87%). Having the benefit of hindsight, you now know that you did in fact make it to 70 and probably have more years in the future (hopefully many!), so in hindsight you could have worked longer to acquire more financial resources and then enjoyed them over many decades of your retirement. But things could have worked out differently, and no one knows how things will turn out from an ex ante perspective (which is how decisions are made).

My take on life is you have to make the best decisions at the time based on what you know. Things like mortality and portfolio survivability have well researched odds of giving certain outcomes in the aggregate, but those outliers can be killer unfortunately. Then there are black swans that aren't even factored in to either mortality or portfolio performance - but how much of your current resources do you allocate to preventing or ameliorating the unknown unknowns? At the end of the day we all make the best choice for ourselves based on our own weighting of a wide variety of factors (hard numbers and soft, emotional issues). And that is ok.

 

[haha]

How do you suggest we prepare for the subsequent realities?

Money, Honey. As I said above, people do what they want and that is cool. It can be scary when someone realizes that the river of no return has been crossed forever.

Ha

 

[simple girl]

From my perspective as a 32 year old, I don't know if I'll make it to 70 (odds must be under 87%). Having the benefit of hindsight, you now know that you did in fact make it to 70 and probably have more years in the future (hopefully many!), so in hindsight you could have worked longer to acquire more financial resources and then enjoyed them over many decades of your retirement. But things could have worked out differently, and no one knows how things will turn out from an ex ante perspective (which is how decisions are made).

My take on life is you have to make the best decisions at the time based on what you know. Things like mortality and portfolio survivability have well researched odds of giving certain outcomes in the aggregate, but those outliers can be killer unfortunately. Then there are black swans that aren't even factored in to either mortality or portfolio performance - but how much of your current resources do you allocate to preventing or ameliorating the unknown unknowns? At the end of the day we all make the best choice for ourselves based on our own weighting of a wide variety of factors (hard numbers and soft, emotional issues). And that is ok.

From someone who has had a huge health scare and contemplates mortality risk on a nearly daily basis, I can tell you that I lean a bit more towards being willing to take financial risks over loss of time risks - within reason. You still need some level of security, too. All I know is that as soon as we have enough we will be pulling the plug, assuming we can figure out healthcare coverage for me. DH wants to do consulting - doesn't want to fully retire, but wants to be his own boss and decide how much work he takes on - so all we need is a big enough nest egg to take this leap of faith. If it doesn't work out, he will still have marketable skills to return to a regular job b/c he wouldn't be completely quitting and losing his skills. This semi-FIRE plan seems to be a better fit for our finances as well as his desire to stay somewhat engaged in the work world. He doesn't feel full retirement would be a good fit for his personality, at least not yet.

 

[MichaelB]

Money, Honey. As I said above, people do what they want and that is cool. It can be scary when someone realizes that the river of no return has been crossed forever.

Ha

How much is enough, dear? Sure it's scary. A 45 year old has options in case things go bad.

 

[FUEGO]

How much is enough, dear? Sure it's scary. A 45 year old has options in case things go bad.

Some think you can never have enough, others think there is some balancing act of time vs money (although the former are really the latter, just heavily weighting the money vs the time).

It really is an individual decision. I think the OP has figured it out for himself by now. And as for his question, it isn't any longer one of "keeping the good high paid professional position" as it is one of "should I get another good high paid professional position even though I am, by most measures, financially set for the rest of my life".

Let me engage in a little hyperbole for a minute. I always wonder how much more a billionaire can enjoy life's experiences than us commoners. Does a cheeseburger taste better? Is looking at a beautiful work of art any more thrilling? Feeling the warm salty air from the deck of a vessel any more exhilarating? Climbing to the top of a mountain and seeing the entire world at your feet? Drinking beer with good friends and having a good laugh? Does crying when you lose someone you love hurt any less when you are a billionaire? Replace billionaire with hundred millionaire or even 10 millionaire and I think you get similar results as you do if you are a 2 millionaire (as long as you have "enough"). Just IMHO.

 

[FUEGO]

From someone who has had a huge health scare and contemplates mortality risk on a nearly daily basis, I can tell you that I lean a bit more towards being willing to take financial risks over loss of time risks - within reason. You still need some level of security, too. All I know is that as soon as we have enough we will be pulling the plug, assuming we can figure out healthcare coverage for me. DH wants to do consulting - doesn't want to fully retire, but wants to be his own boss and decide how much work he takes on - so all we need is a big enough nest egg to take this leap of faith. If it doesn't work out, he will still have marketable skills to return to a regular job b/c he wouldn't be completely quitting and losing his skills. This semi-FIRE plan seems to be a better fit for our finances as well as his desire to stay somewhat engaged in the work world. He doesn't feel full retirement would be a good fit for his personality, at least not yet.

I like your take on it - you are healthy and good to go one minute, then something bad happens that makes you realize your time may not be as infinite as you thought. Career decisions aren't irreversible in general, although extended absences from the labor market can adversely impact your employability.

After all, you spend wisely and save for your retirement so you can pursue whatever life you want. This is harvesting the fruit of your hard work accumulating wealth. Nothing wrong with realizing you may need to get more wealth later.

 

[NW-Bound]

I am just glad I found this forum when I was already in my 50s, working part-time, wife already quit her work out of despair and disgust with her job, children in college and on their way, having some money in the bank, and enough in the stock market to make it interesting to run Quicken several times a day for stock quote update.

If I had come here earlier, I would be tormented with the same question. Should I stay or should I leave? It is difficult to tell anyone what to do, because I am not in their situation, nor have their feeling about life and work.

 

[haha]

How much is enough, dear? Sure it's scary. A 45 year old has options in case things go bad.

No desire to argue. Like I said, whatever suits me. As a general point though, I believe that the world has changed, and that very early retirement by people who are not also very wealthy -most of whom have no interest in retiring anyway- will turn out to be a fin de siècle phenomenon.

Hard to make a case that one has more flexibility with no job than with one, and flexibility might become a much sought after value.

No doubt many people’s jobs really stink, but quitting is not the only approach to that.

Ha

 

[eytonxav]

Most working persons in their 40s are in a job that is not easily replaceable. I'm not kidding myself, once I leave, there's a slim chance I could ever get anywhere near the income level I am at now.

This was and is undoubtedly true today for folks that are 55+, at least middle management types, but its disheartening to hear that this is also the case for folks in their 40s who should have many productive years ahead of them.

 

[HFWR]

Money, Honey.

Ha

Joey Ramone - Maria Bartiromo - YouTube

 

[haha]

Joey Ramone - Maria Bartiromo - YouTube

Love that song, that woman, and that whole CD. I believe that was written after Joey was already sick. Good pic of The Honey as Matron.

My Money, Honey reference is this one: Clyde McPhatter & The Drifters Money Honey - YouTube

It's been one of my lifelong soundtracks.

Ha

 

[Fermion]

This was and is undoubtedly true today for folks that are 55+, at least middle management types, but its disheartening to hear that this is also the case for folks in their 40s who should have many productive years ahead of them.

It isn't true in tech. At microsoft there are plenty of people in their 50s that get hired as contract developers making $80/hr or so. I personally know about 5 devs and testers who left the company, did a few things, then came back several years later on contract...one guy is 59!

This is why I think our plan of doing odd year contract work across the new year (to generate Roth contributions for each year while having 18 months off) is going to work out. It isn't full retirement, but will allow our nest egg to grow from age 45 to 55. You can do a lot in 18 months of not working that will make it seem like you are retired.

 

[eytonxav]

It isn't true in tech. At microsoft there are plenty of people in their 50s that get hired as contract developers making $80/hr or so. I personally know about 5 devs and testers who left the company, did a few things, then came back several years later on contract...one guy is 59!

While there are always some areas that may be exceptions, getting a contract position isn't the same thing as finding an equivalent full time employee position once your beyond 55, especially if you got layed off. And I know several IT folks that have suffered that fait and struggeled or failed to get anything close to what they had previously.

 

[FUEGO]

While there are always some areas that may be exceptions, getting a contract position isn't the same thing as finding an equivalent full time employee position once your beyond 55, especially if you got layed off. And I know several IT folks that have suffered that fait and struggeled or failed to get anything close to what they had previously.

But if you can find something, even a temp gig, and make some decent money at it, you don't need to replicate your old salary. Say you used to make $150k/yr in IT or whatever. You only have $60k in expenses. Now you find a temp gig that only lasts 6 months, but may have extensions, and pays a similar hourly rate plus a little to compensate you for your overhead expenses. Maybe you clear $75k for 6 months of work, or a little more. That is 1.25 years of your living expenses.

You could do exactly this for six months, then take 9 months off, six months on, 9 months off. Forever. All the while you aren't touching your investment portfolio.

In my professional life, I spend many millions a year on professional contractors and consultants, many of which are IT-y businessy type people. For those type people the absolute lowest rate I pay to an independent consultant is $120/hr. The typical rate is $150-175/hr with some getting much more. And this isn't typically small numbers of hours. 500 hrs up to full time (2000 hrs) is typical. It is in a very niche market, but definitely lucrative if you have the appropriate skills. The labor market in this niche is filled with individuals that quit their W-2 jobs (paying $100-300k/yr) and hung their own shingles. Most are in there 40's and 50's, maybe some young 60's.

 

[cardude]

In my professional life, I spend many millions a year on professional contractors and consultants, many of which are IT-y businessy type people. For those type people the absolute lowest rate I pay to an independent consultant is $120/hr. The typical rate is $150-175/hr with some getting much more. And this isn't typically small numbers of hours. 500 hrs up to full time (2000 hrs) is typical. It is in a very niche market, but definitely lucrative if you have the appropriate skills. The labor market in this niche is filled with individuals that quit their W-2 jobs (paying $100-300k/yr) and hung their own shingles. Most are in there 40's and 50's, maybe some young 60's.

fuego

Where/how does one acquire the skills for this type of career? Reason I ask is because I have a son who is a HS sophomore, and I wanted him to major in accounting and minor in spanish in college, but he thinks accounting will be boring. I want him to graduate with a universally marketable skill-- I have a BA in finance but wish I would have gotten an accounting degree instead after being in business for 20 plus years.

He is good but not great in math (all As in advanced classes but has to work at it), and enjoys his Spanish class. Has As in all his other subjects as well. English is his least favorite. I've never thought about any IT related careers because I just don't know that much about it. I want him to be able make enough money and combine LBYM so he can become FI at a young age. Maybe not ER, but FI certainly. He is interested in working out of the country also, using his Spanish minor. Would an IT career be a possible fit?

 

[Desire2Retire]

It is in a very niche market, but definitely lucrative if you have the appropriate skills. The labor market in this niche is filled with individuals that quit their W-2 jobs (paying $100-300k/yr) and hung their own shingles. Most are in there 40's and 50's, maybe some young 60's.

What niche is that?

I'm still in the "accumulation stage", but looking to semi-retirement in a few years. My definition of semi-retirement is to be technically FI (i.e. don't need a for-pay job to make ends meet), but still working just enough to cover expenses. The idea is to find a balance between always worrying is my nest egg big enough and the frustration of working too much to enjoy my family. That way my nest egg can continue to grow---maybe it will grow big enough that I can completely dismiss the "do I have enough" worry. Or maybe I'll find part-time/consulting work will be enjoyable enough that I virtually stop thinking about my nest egg. Either way, I'll figure it out when I get there.

But in the meantime, I do think about this future part-time/consulting gig. It's a vague and nebulous idea right now, but I'm interested in learning about what kind of opportunities are out there.

 

[Mulligan]

Money, Honey. As I said above, people do what they want and that is cool. It can be scary when someone realizes that the river of no return has been crossed forever.

Ha

I certainly agree with your observations. Many people reflect and worry about the proper withdrawal rate, but rarely reflect on the possible destruction of working/career "capital" that is blown to near zero in some careers in ER. This is especially important for the very early retirees. Although, I feel fairly comfortable with the stability of my pension, I was totally not 100% at ease due to my age at retirement (45). I have continued working part time in my career field because quite frankly it is better pay than what I would get out on my own. I have taken advantage of my network of friends who are still working, but are winding down fast too. Although I complain a little about doing it, it really is worth the time. I have doubled my nest egg in the past 3 years and have really increased my since of security. I hope by age 50, though I have become convinced that I don't need to save for the worse case scenario anymore.

 

[Fermion]

But if you can find something, even a temp gig, and make some decent money at it, you don't need to replicate your old salary. Say you used to make $150k/yr in IT or whatever. You only have $60k in expenses. Now you find a temp gig that only lasts 6 months, but may have extensions, and pays a similar hourly rate plus a little to compensate you for your overhead expenses. Maybe you clear $75k for 6 months of work, or a little more. That is 1.25 years of your living expenses.

You could do exactly this for six months, then take 9 months off, six months on, 9 months off. Forever. All the while you aren't touching your investment portfolio.

Now we are cooking with gas! This is our plan in a nutshell (although as mentioned, going to try to take off 12 to 18 months at a stretch, but have at least enough earned income every year for Roth contributions (and savers credit!...50% annual return guaranteed!)

 

[FUEGO]

fuego

Where/how does one acquire the skills for this type of career? Reason I ask is because I have a son who is a HS sophomore, and I wanted him to major in accounting and minor in spanish in college, but he thinks accounting will be boring. I want him to graduate with a universally marketable skill-- I have a BA in finance but wish I would have gotten an accounting degree instead after being in business for 20 plus years.

He is good but not great in math (all As in advanced classes but has to work at it), and enjoys his Spanish class. Has As in all his other subjects as well. English is his least favorite. I've never thought about any IT related careers because I just don't know that much about it. I want him to be able make enough money and combine LBYM so he can become FI at a young age. Maybe not ER, but FI certainly. He is interested in working out of the country also, using his Spanish minor. Would an IT career be a possible fit?

I don't want to disclose what industry because it wouldn't take much sleuthing to figure out who I am and where I work and live given the small size of the industry.

But I imagine there are ample other industries out there. It isn't anything glamorous. Just a particular line of business where things need to be done correctly and hardware and software and people intersect. I imagine there are lots of niches out there just like mine. Big companies like IBM have consulting arms that provide and configure hardware and software and wrap it up with business acumen (but we don't deal with IBM as I'm pretty sure they aren't active in our niche).

I don't really have any good advice to get into fields like these. Go to college, network and figure out what people do and what industries are like. What are careers like in different fields? Do the highly paid have horrible work lives?

 

[sundance]

I retired at 48 w/pension & health care (dumb luck, don't hate me) . Did volunteer work. Got involved in politics and made some meaningful changes in our town. I even got a bull sh... part time job. The only thing my husband & I don't bicker about is money.. I am looking for a meaningful part time job to fill a huge missing void.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

If you are alive and run out of money, there are options.

Indeed. I'm completely available as a male prostitute, 24x7. Ehhh...just women though, and my minimum price is a buck.

Over the last couple of weeks, several very early retirees on this board have expressed regrets over their decision to quit the rat race in their 30s or 40s.

This is quite alarming for me (retired at 36) so it may be wise to question your decision.

Yep, I was burned out and just planned to take a year or so off from work. Not having to get up early and be somewhere every day was quite alluring. Too young for me to stop working, and I'll probably go back to work in a couple of years when my 5 geriatric pets go to kitty and puppy heaven and my son is older. I do miss the camaraderie and work friends and that aspect of a social life.

But this really has nothing to do with it. Retiring will not extend life, or likely, cut it short. If you die, you die. Is your current way of going about living so bad that it is not considered life? Is emptying septic hoses while touring around the country a totally different realm of existence from going to the office, having colleagues, having lunch with work friends?

Judging from my own life, I was burned out. But I believe changes within the world of work might have worked as well or better than quitting- and I have had a pretty successful retirement of~25 years. It certainly would have been financially better and with greater scope for changing course.

My idea is do whatever you will, whoever you are, however much money you have and whatever your responsibilities are. That is what people will almost always do.

But the board is biased. How often has someone said, "this is an early retirement board after all". To me, this is a warning- don't go to a surgeon if you want advice to wait, and don't go to an early retirement board if you want advice regarding the desirability of retiring early. Most of us have crossed that bridge, and time has burned it behind us. Commonly, divorced people recommend divorce, people with kids recommend having kids, religious people recommend church-I think we all know about this. I just had the funny experience of googling "León, Nicaragua". A piece by Catherine or Kathleen Peddicord popped up. She definitely recommended retiring to León. Cheap, very safe, blah, blah. The very next article was from an Australian consular travel advisory "Exercise a High Degree of Caution".

Now let me see, who is likely to be more biased, a woman who works for a newsletter with many RE affiliates in lots of third world places, or an agency of the Australian government?

You're throwing off a lot of gold in this thread!

 

[sundance]

What I was trying to say was "its not always about money".

 

[midlifeguy]

I am also 42 and just retired last month. I had a high-paying job for the past 2.5 years where I had 90% of my 280k annual paycheck automatically deposited into my brokerage account every month, while ALSO having 5k per month automatically deposited FROM my brokerage account into my checking account. I did this as basically a "test" of retirement to see if I could live off the withdrawal rate, etc,. and it worked very well so gave me a lot of confidence that full retirement would be fine. The OP has already left work, but for others who are at the same age and considering pulling the trigger, you may want to try a test first and see how it feels.

My assets are about 2.3M in stocks and 1.1M in real estate with no debt. My partner also has a full pension for the rest of his life.

I would also echo what someone said about not retiring FROM work, but retiring TO something else. I have always been a creative writer, and want to spend all my time writing, submitting, teaching part-time and doing other writing-related things. That gives me a sense of purpose and ambition that many early retirees may not have. I suggest you find your passion and cultivate it before or immediately after retiring.

I have always wondered how these rich CEO's can work into their 80's, and the best response I ever heard to that question was "lack of imagination." I love that. Imagine your dream life and then live it.

 

[dtbach]

I am also 42 and just retired last month. I had a high-paying job for the past 2.5 years where I had 90% of my 280k annual paycheck automatically deposited into my brokerage account every month, while ALSO having 5k per month automatically deposited FROM my brokerage account into my checking account. I did this as basically a "test" of retirement to see if I could live off the withdrawal rate, etc,. and it worked very well so gave me a lot of confidence that full retirement would be fine. The OP has already left work, but for others who are at the same age and considering pulling the trigger, you may want to try a test first and see how it feels.

My assets are about 2.3M in stocks and 1.1M in real estate with no debt. My partner also has a full pension for the rest of his life.

I would also echo what someone said about not retiring FROM work, but retiring TO something else. I have always been a creative writer, and want to spend all my time writing, submitting, teaching part-time and doing other writing-related things. That gives me a sense of purpose and ambition that many early retirees may not have. I suggest you find your passion and cultivate it before or immediately after retiring.

I have always wondered how these rich CEO's can work into their 80's, and the best response I ever heard to that question was "lack of imagination." I love that. Imagine your dream life and then live it.

I think you are significantly in better financial shape than the OP (by 33% or so) and that is a pretty nice cushion. Don't want to be a doom and gloom guy but can you count on any income from your partner if you 2 split? i.e. any kind of contract? Otherwise, I wouldn't really count on that income. But if the 3.4 million is all yours, I think you are in pretty great shape. Sounds like you have done some good testing and have lots to keep you busy. Glad you went for it.