Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-16-2011, 09:10 AM   #41
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NC
Posts: 21,202
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockyj View Post
So, if I have saved and invested enough to sustain my lifestyle while no longer reporting to the office, then by that argument I have done my share of "contributing", and continue to do so via remaining invested and spending the proceeds on the goods and services provided by others- so, no, not being a parasite at all.
I understand, and support your right to that view - I'm on track to follow your advice. But I'm willing to concede that if we all saved and invested AND continued to work as long as we're productive (regardless of FI), the cost to society at large would be significantly less. That's where the parasite dilemma is not clear IMO.
__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 50% equity funds / 45% bonds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 1.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is online now   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 01-16-2011, 09:18 AM   #42
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
RonBoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 6,256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
But I'm willing to concede that if we all saved and invested AND continued to work as long as we're productive (regardless of FI), the cost to society at large would be significantly less.
Significantly! Is there any Math behind this theory? (It is beyond my number skills.)
__________________
"It's tough to make predictions, especially when it involves the future." ~Attributed to many
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is." ~(perhaps by) Yogi Berra
"Those who have knowledge, don't predict. Those who predict, don't have knowledge."~ Lau tzu
RonBoyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2011, 10:52 AM   #43
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
But I'm willing to concede that if we all saved and invested AND continued to work as long as we're productive (regardless of FI), the cost to society at large would be significantly less. That's where the parasite dilemma is not clear IMO.
Perhaps the "horns" of the dilemma may be in confounding continued paid employment with one's best contribution to society. For some that may be the case - having employment in which they find personal reward (not just monetarily) and from which they derive challenge, growth and satisfaction while contributing to something that is indeed of benefit to society. It is good for them to stay on call as long they are willing and able, for their own benefit as well for that of society. But I'm sure there are many (just read through the "Hi I am.." threads on this or similar forums) who do not fit that mold. For them staying too long in an increasingly unproductive situation - whether caused by drift in organizational direction, frustrations with management, outgrowing a job, personal burnout, or whatever - probably isn't their highest and best use to society - even if leaving would mean their departure from the wage tax system. If nothing else, moving on may free up an opportunity for someone likely to welcome the opportunity and be more productive in that position. One could also argue that not all paid work is indeed very beneficial to society anyway (except perhaps, for continued contributions to the wage tax base, which I realize is at the crux of this thread).

On the positive side, and irrespective of prior employment situations or reasons for departure form the workplace, there are so many ways that do not involve paid employment through which individuals can and do contribute to society; there is no need to enumerate them here. Everyone's situation is unique. I think you're right in observing that the "dilemma is not clear".
rockyj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2011, 11:29 AM   #44
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Purron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,596
Beautifully stated Rockyj.
__________________
I purr therefore I am.
Purron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2011, 11:57 AM   #45
gone traveling
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,864
Quote:
Originally Posted by youbet View Post
...and as easily harvestable natural resources dwindle...
Is there some factual basis for this statement? Or just eco-hysteria? We have millions or acres of of renewable forest resources left, millions of acres to to strip mine and vast untapped oil reserves, i.e. the Bakken and the ANWR...and we're dumping milk and paying farmers not to grow crops.
Westernskies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2011, 12:32 PM   #46
Moderator Emeritus
M Paquette's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Portland
Posts: 4,946
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
Interesting post, thanks for taking the time. I guess the "dilemma" is - am I a parasite if I exit the workforce before I "lose [my] capacity at producing" just because I am financially (independent) able? While it may draw emphatic emotional answers - the answer is not crystal clear IMO.
Nah. If we're going to continue being all Randian about this, you're a hero, chock full of enlightened self-interest. Financial independence is a Good Thing, especially if you did it all yourself. It represents the reward you've reaped from being an especially good producer. Bonus points if you mysteriously disappear after getting a court order to fund an incompetent loan applicant...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
I suppose in an ideal world, I guess we'd all work as long as we're productive even if we reach FI before the end of our work days. I'd start a thread, but I've had some bad experiences here with topics along these lines...
Heh, heh...

I don't know if I'd call those bad experiences, as much as they are revelations about the nature of fellow human beings.
M Paquette is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2011, 12:49 PM   #47
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NC
Posts: 21,202
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonBoyd View Post
Significantly! Is there any Math behind this theory? (It is beyond my number skills.)
Seriously? The more people who are working and providing goods & services and the fewer there are receiving social security and other benefits, the less the burden on those working. This is NOT a judgement or comment, just the math. I am only trying to frame the parasite question in terms of the economics - I am NOT pretending to judge anyone's choices (along the lines of rockyj's POV).

I am going to become a parasite this year if it makes you feel better...
__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 50% equity funds / 45% bonds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 1.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2011, 01:18 PM   #48
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
RonBoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 6,256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
Seriously? The more people who are working and providing goods & services and the fewer there are receiving social security and other benefits, the less the burden on those working. This is NOT a judgement or comment, just the math. I am only trying to frame the parasite question in terms of the economics - I am NOT pretending to judge anyone's choices (along the lines of rockyj's POV).

I am going to become a parasite this year if it makes you feel better...
__________________
"It's tough to make predictions, especially when it involves the future." ~Attributed to many
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is." ~(perhaps by) Yogi Berra
"Those who have knowledge, don't predict. Those who predict, don't have knowledge."~ Lau tzu
RonBoyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2011, 01:23 PM   #49
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NC
Posts: 21,202
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonBoyd View Post
__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 50% equity funds / 45% bonds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 1.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2011, 01:23 PM   #50
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Purron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,596
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
I am going to become a parasite this year
That's kinda like a vampire, right?

Attached Images
File Type: jpg draccu cat.jpg (89.2 KB, 1 views)
__________________
I purr therefore I am.
Purron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2011, 02:45 PM   #51
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
GregLee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Waimanalo, HI
Posts: 1,881
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
Seriously? The more people who are working and providing goods & services and the fewer there are receiving social security and other benefits, the less the burden on those working. This is NOT a judgement or comment, just the math.
I don't see any math going on here, at all. And since we're commenting here on a theory according to which the more people retire, the greater the opportunity for the not-yet-retired to find jobs, thus lessening the burden on them, your thesis certainly doesn't seem to be the tautology you think it is.
__________________
Greg (retired in 2010 at age 68, state pension)
GregLee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2011, 03:27 PM   #52
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,038
As long as there are enough people working to pay my Social Security and produce what I need I will be satisfied in retirement.

I don't think the point of life is to produce the most possible over your lifetime. Or to consume the most for that matter.

There was a time when most of the women were not in the workforce and we got by fine.
__________________
In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.
Lazarus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2011, 01:11 AM   #53
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
youbet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 13,151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Westernskies View Post
Is there some factual basis for this statement?.
Yes.
__________________
"I wasn't born blue blood. I was born blue-collar." John Wort Hannam
youbet is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2011, 01:47 AM   #54
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
youbet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 13,151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazarus View Post
As long as there are enough people working to pay my Social Security and produce what I need I will be satisfied in retirement.

.
Then we should reduce FRA for SS to a low enough age that there are not enough people working to pay your SS and produce what you need. That would keep a little spice in your life!
__________________
"I wasn't born blue blood. I was born blue-collar." John Wort Hannam
youbet is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2011, 07:06 AM   #55
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Gone4Good's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 5,381
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
I don't see any math going on here, at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB View Post
Economic prosperity happens when more people engage in productive work. More people working @ higher productivity = a bigger economy and everyone is better off.
It is undeniable that at a given level of productivity, a smaller work force results in a smaller economy.

We have a current GDP of $14.7T produced by 139.2MM workers. The labor force is 153.7MM, meaning 14.5MM of our fellow citizens are out of work. Assume we could pay 7MM people to take early retirement and that those jobs would be filled with by the currently unemployed. The unemployment rate would drop to the "full employment" level of 5.1%. Assuming there was no change in productivity and that the pool of unemployed workers seeking work exactly matched the pool of early retirees our GDP would be unchanged. However, our "potential" GDP would decline from $15.5T to $14.7T due to the smaller potential work force.

So in the best case scenario we'd have lower unemployment at the expense of future economic growth. A more reasonable scenario would be one where worker productivity declines, as well matched and desirable employees are replaced with second choice candidates. It is also likely that some skilled workers will retire where no suitable replacement exists, resulting in a less than one for one retirement to new employment ratio. That means lower current GDP, lower potential GDP, and higher than promised unemployment.

The expected price tag (excluding financing costs) of moving 7MM workers to retirement three years early based on the average SS payment is $293B. Add another $206B for medicare. And we have a program cost of $500B over three years.
__________________
Retired early, traveling perpetually.
Gone4Good is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2011, 08:08 AM   #56
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
RonBoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 6,256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gone4Good View Post
It is undeniable that at a given level of productivity, a smaller work force results in a smaller economy.

<and so on>
The biggest problem I'm having with this thread is that solutions suggested in this (and the bulk of previous) Post start from a sufficient number of Jobs (to support the solution) and expect the number of jobs to grow in the future. Yet, here we are, starting with a (greater than?) 11 million deficit and a reasonable expectation that the gap will increase in the future not diminish.


What is 'Watson'? IBM computer wins 'Jeopardy!' practice round - USATODAY.com

(I, also, seen an article a couple days ago that very tiny creatures (Microbes?) are being used to create miniature circuits for the Game Software industry... but I can't quickly find the cite.)

Anyway, we are heading closer to the "Man and a Dog" Era than away from it.

http://www.early-retirement.org/foru...tml#post868992

http://www.early-retirement.org/foru...ml#post1003858
__________________
"It's tough to make predictions, especially when it involves the future." ~Attributed to many
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is." ~(perhaps by) Yogi Berra
"Those who have knowledge, don't predict. Those who predict, don't have knowledge."~ Lau tzu
RonBoyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2011, 08:18 AM   #57
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
harley's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: No fixed abode
Posts: 8,764
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonBoyd View Post
The biggest problem I'm having with this thread is that solutions suggested in this (and the bulk of previous) Post start from a sufficient number of Jobs (to support the solution) and expect the number of jobs to grow in the future. Yet, here we are, starting with a (greater than?) 11 million deficit and a reasonable expectation that the gap will increase in the future not diminish.
14.5 million at last count. Employment Situation Summary

Quote:
(I, also, seen an article a couple days ago that very tiny creatures (Microbes?) are being used to create miniature circuits for the Game Software industry... but I can't quickly find the cite.)
Are you talking about nanites (microscopic robots)? If it's actually microbes, I'd be interested in reading that if you ever find the article.
__________________
"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement." - Anonymous (not Will Rogers or Sam Clemens)
DW and I - FIREd at 50 (7/06), living off assets
harley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2011, 08:23 AM   #58
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
ziggy29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: North Oregon Coast
Posts: 16,483
It's quite a conundrum. On one hand, as the ratio of those working to those receiving public benefits continues to decline, the less we can afford to reduce the retirement age (and skew that ratio even more). On the other hand, with unemployment quite high and looking like it will stay high (north of 8%, say) for quite a long time, reducing the number of people that need to w*rk would reduce the number of people who need a j*b and can't find one.

I for one am not smart enough to figure out how these two seemingly contradictory factors can be reconciled.
__________________
"Hey, for every ten dollars, that's another hour that I have to be in the work place. That's an hour of my life. And my life is a very finite thing. I have only 'x' number of hours left before I'm dead. So how do I want to use these hours of my life? Do I want to use them just spending it on more crap and more stuff, or do I want to start getting a handle on it and using my life more intelligently?" -- Joe Dominguez (1938 - 1997)
ziggy29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2011, 08:39 AM   #59
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
RonBoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 6,256
Quote:
Originally Posted by harley View Post
Are you talking about nanites (microscopic robots)? If it's actually microbes, I'd be interested in reading that if you ever find the article.
I am going to have to stop my habit of reading headlines only. Nevertheless, the article still is appropriate to my belief that "our" desire to avoid w*rk will result in fewer and fewer Jobs until there is only a "Man and a Dog" as the workforce... and the rest of us? Enjoying all that leisure time hopefully.

Living microorganisms used to make video games

Quote:
The biotic games incorporate living cells like paramecia, which are single-celled organisms, with video games in order to allow everyday people to participate in experiments and learn more about biological processes.
Quote:
“We would argue that modern biotechnology will influence our life at an accelerating pace, most prominently in the personal biomedical choices that we will be faced with more and more often,” said Riedel-Kruse. “Therefore everyone should have sufficient knowledge about the basics of biomedicine and biotechnology. Biotic games could promote that.”
__________________
"It's tough to make predictions, especially when it involves the future." ~Attributed to many
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is." ~(perhaps by) Yogi Berra
"Those who have knowledge, don't predict. Those who predict, don't have knowledge."~ Lau tzu
RonBoyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2011, 08:40 AM   #60
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,629
IMO, lowering the SS retirement age is a valid topic for discussion as a short range strategy for dealing with the economic downturn, but it's a bad idea for the long term.

"Conventional" economics says there's a difference between long term and short term forces. In the long term we believe wages are flexible and will adjust so that anyone who is capable of doing productive work and willing to work will find a job at some wage, and will add to the economic pie. But, in the short term wages are sticky, we can get into a vicious spiral of low expectations leading to low results, and we incur a lot of pain while we wait for the long term to get here.

We've borrowed money to extend unemployment benefits, pick up COBRA for unemployed workers, keep state/local workers employed, give tax breaks to businesses and individuals, all to directly reduce the pain and/or try to break the spiral. Maybe early retirement would be a more efficient way of using those borrowed dollars. Gone4Good has a good start at analyzing this idea, the next question is how many of those dollars will go to people who would have retired at 62 without the extra incentive.

Unfortunately, Gailbraith's piece appears to say this is a good long term idea, I can't see the wisdom of that.
Independent is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Do you really need a lower SWR for longer retirement? accountingsucks FIRE and Money 37 07-14-2010 08:37 AM
Diversifying Doesn't Lower Risk, But It Does Lower Potential Gain justin FIRE and Money 44 11-05-2005 04:16 PM

» Quick Links

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:49 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.