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Old 03-10-2012, 09:22 PM   #41
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
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Given his track record and lack of self-discipline, I don't think you will change him or his behavior. If you rescue him, he probably won't appreciate what you've done. I think you should think about your own family first and not feel obligated to help. If you decide to help, treat it as a gift that you have no expectations of a return from him emotionally or monetarily.
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Old 03-10-2012, 09:48 PM   #42
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
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Originally Posted by Twinkle Toes View Post
I don't see any upside for anyone in this. You buy "his" house for $75,000 and Dad's going to say you took his equity. You sell it and he has no where to live. You set up a trust that will give him 3-4% per year...he still has no where to live and the trust distribution won't be enough money to live on, and oh yes...you took his equity. You let him "rent" the property from you and...he doesn't make payments. You, as owner, will be responsible for upkeep (M&R, taxes, etc.) on the house and if he doesn't pay rent, you have the option of booting Dad out of "his" house.
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Old 03-10-2012, 11:04 PM   #43
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
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Seriously?

If Dad were losing his house because an illness wiped him out or even if he had made an all too common mistake like giving a scam artist much of his money I would help in a second. However your father has a long history of bad judgement in the money department.

If it were me I wouldn't give him a penny but you need to do whatever makes you feel right regardless of what anyone else thinks.
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Old 03-11-2012, 12:04 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Nords View Post
The only real "help" that you can offer is to leave him alone to work out his own problems.
I have to agree with this. He's dug himself in too far and there are no good options left.
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Old 03-11-2012, 12:40 AM   #45
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I am in the 'let him figure it out' camp....

Or the 'you can't fix stupid' camp...

But I think they overlap a lot here....



He had a way out... by selling the property... he let that one go... how stupid is that.... I will not waste my time or money on someone like him....
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Old 03-11-2012, 04:52 AM   #46
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I agree with Ally.
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Originally Posted by Ally View Post
Given his track record and lack of self-discipline, I don't think you will change him or his behavior. If you rescue him, he probably won't appreciate what you've done. I think you should think about your own family first and not feel obligated to help. If you decide to help, treat it as a gift that you have no expectations of a return from him emotionally or monetarily.
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Old 03-11-2012, 06:32 AM   #47
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Another +1 for Ally.
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Old 03-11-2012, 06:44 AM   #48
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This is a tough group. Maybe Mrstop senior has a problem with his wiring and just cannot make the "right" choices in life. I would not advise OP Mrstop to enable or subsidize his father in any way, and it is not clear his father would even cooperate with any of the options being discussed here. But if his were my situation I would try go get the $100k equity out of the house, help the Mrstop senior get into a senior home of some type, and use that money to help support him. It is possible Mrstop senior will not (or can not) cooperate and end up losing everything.

I would also contact county health and senior care departments to see what support programs are available. Housing options as well, because Mrstop senior will soon be homeless and need a place to stay.
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Old 03-11-2012, 07:40 AM   #49
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I 'know' this type of guy.

He's spent his entire life jumping from one scam to another and has made it work thru wile, deceit and denial.

Nowhere in the OP's original message do I see dad making a serious plea for help other than for them to co-sign. All I see is another way to keep the scam going for a few more years until another idea comes along.

Been there. Done that.

Don't want to be harsh, so I'll say this: the ol' man did you a favor by keeping his distance. Read into it what you wish.

Good Luck!
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Old 03-11-2012, 08:13 AM   #50
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I'm with Ally and the other "tough love" campers.

We have a similar issue with FIL, five years ago I spent 7 months and not inconsiderable expense doing major painting and mold removal on his house so he could sell and get into a situation financially sustainable.

Then he decides he "can't move".

Okay, fine. I'm done with it.
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Old 03-11-2012, 08:17 AM   #51
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How do you know losing the house is "bad" in the bigger scheme of things?

Another choice to add to your list:

Let the course of natural consequences give him yet another chance to learn - and a motivation grow up and change his behavior.

Think of the lost of equity as "tuition." Some people require more tuition than others to "get it".

Having said that, I would like to acknowledge that it is very hard, but likely very necessary, for you to keep repeating, "I'm sorry you are going through this, but I can't help you financially."

Kindest regards.
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Old 03-11-2012, 10:42 AM   #52
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This is a tough group. Maybe Mrstop senior has a problem with his wiring and just cannot make the "right" choices in life. I would not advise OP Mrstop to enable or subsidize his father in any way, and it is not clear his father would even cooperate with any of the options being discussed here. But if his were my situation I would try go get the $100k equity out of the house, help the Mrstop senior get into a senior home of some type, and use that money to help support him. It is possible Mrstop senior will not (or can not) cooperate and end up losing everything.

I would also contact county health and senior care departments to see what support programs are available. Housing options as well, because Mrstop senior will soon be homeless and need a place to stay.
+1
Agree whole heatedly. There are many people like your Dad. They lack capacity period. I am sure your dad had some redeeming qualities as well, or you wouldn't feel the way you do. I agree not to enable his continuing pattern, but I don't agree not to try and help in some way.
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Old 03-11-2012, 10:43 AM   #53
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This is a tough group. Maybe Mrstop senior has a problem with his wiring and just cannot make the "right" choices in life. I would not advise OP Mrstop to enable or subsidize his father in any way, and it is not clear his father would even cooperate with any of the options being discussed here. But if his were my situation I would try go get the $100k equity out of the house, help the Mrstop senior get into a senior home of some type, and use that money to help support him. It is possible Mrstop senior will not (or can not) cooperate and end up losing everything.

I would also contact county health and senior care departments to see what support programs are available. Housing options as well, because Mrstop senior will soon be homeless and need a place to stay.
Yeh, this group is really tough. I am more in your camp. I think sometimes people forget that as human beings we are flawed. We often blame people for their circumstances without considering that some people may suffer from undiagnosed mental illness, may be handicapped by their limited education, their upbring, their ignorances, their dependence on drugs and alcohol and the list goes on and on. I've lived long enough to realize how fortunate I am because despite my upbringing and influence I saw around me, I turned out right. I didn't turn out right because I made the right choices all on my own. I turned out right because there was intervention in my life and exposure at some point to different values than what I saw around me. Even my choice of career came by what I saw around me. I got my first job in a big company and I saw that the people who made money were all those with the business degrees, especially accounting and I realized my degree in sociology wasn't going to cut it so I went to grad school and got the degree that was more marketable. Let's not be so self righteous because this could have been one of us.
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Old 03-11-2012, 10:47 AM   #54
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Should we help my deadbeat father out of foreclosure trouble?

No. He's the "parent" isn't he, and should take on the responsibility.

I would never ask my son to be responsible for "my sins" in life.

Just my simple POV..
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Old 03-11-2012, 10:59 AM   #55
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I have to agree with this. He's dug himself in too far and there are no good options left.
That is not true. He has negotiated a $75k payoff for his mortgage and he has refused to consider an offer close to $275k for his house. He knows exactly what he is doing. Leave him alone.

I had a neighbour who tried to lean on me for financial support. I just said NO! We are still friends. The people that loaned him money are no longer friends.
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Old 03-11-2012, 11:06 AM   #56
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I am a hardcore meany but I do not see any upside in letting your dad lose the equity in the house. That equity could at some time in the future be inherited by you and your brother. It seems to me that you do need to help him to keep the house but at the same time minimize your exposure. Co-signing would be entirely out of the question IMO. Perhaps you and your brother could pay off the loan and in exchange have your dad sign a loan contract between the three of you with the house as collateral. If he does not make payments you could repossess. With his lifestyle and financial choices he is going to lose the house. Better for him to lose it to you and your brother and you could then help him with living expenses in exchange for the profit you should be able to make on the house.
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Old 03-11-2012, 11:44 AM   #57
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I'm not one for doing the guilt thing. If dad is bailed out this time, give it a year and he'll be back for more. Then you're in way too deep to find an easy way out. And all the money and emotions you put into "saving" him the first time will be doubled and tripled. There's only so much money and emotion to go around and if you give it to someone who has no appreciation or respect for himself or others - and takes advantage of biological relationships - then you're short-selling your own spouse and children.

It's pretty easy to just say no. Then expect the tantrums and the "you owe me" lines and at that point you'll know you made the right decision.

You did right by refusing to co-sign. If a bank requires a co-signer, then the applicant is already in over his/her head financially. If the bank knows enough to be wary about this whole situation, maybe that's a flag for you to also step back.
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Old 03-11-2012, 01:07 PM   #58
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His old age is going to be hell. There is nothing you can, or should, do about it. He will hate you, yell at you, try to throw some guilt trip on you just to get the "fix" for his financial junkie lifestyle. He should have planned his life better. Now, he has to pay the piper. He is 67, there is no reason he can't work for the next 15-20 years to atone will the "retired lifestyle" he has enjoyed since the 70's as per your post.
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Old 03-11-2012, 01:31 PM   #59
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He has already negotiated down the payoff on the loans. It would take a leap of faith and trust on my part, but could I payoff the loans in cash (directly to the bank) to settle the debt then transfer the title afterwards?
I have a certain amount of experience on the subject being a member of a broken family/divorce.

I think that you've given all the reasons why you shouldn't go through with this and just walk away.

I could go on and reiterate all those reasons with my own spin, but I don't think it would be worth the effort. The above statement of yours made me slap my head - because we both have a pretty good guess that dad would then refuse to transfer the title, and then what? You just gave him a house for free.

I cannot see how you could even consider this as you've made clear that it's not like you have the money to simply throw away.

My view isn't harsh at all - I think it's a dose of reality...and I think that you know it already.

Consider your own wife/kids/mother before you are willing to provide even one cent of support to this man. A father means more than the biological donor who brought you into this world.

Good luck with your decision.
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leaving numbers aside for the moment...
Old 03-11-2012, 04:04 PM   #60
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leaving numbers aside for the moment...

This is a difficult place to be -- I know from a similar experience.

One way to try to think your way out of the problem is to play with the scenarios and the numbers -- this will work...that won't... what if I buy this... what if I try to get him to do that...

But in the end, the EMOTIONAL side is the real problem here, in my experience and IMHO. If he were a stranger on the street, there wouldn't be an issue -- not your problem. A stranger couldn't guilt or shame or beg you into helping, because you have your core family to care for and protect first.

Your father seems like a semi-stranger in many ways, but at the end of the day, it's your tenuous tie to him that's causing the distress. The real problelm is your fear of the guilt and shame you'll experience if you do nothing and the worst happens.

So... what I do in these cases is try to live for 24 or 48 hours with that reality. What if you do nothing, and your father loses his house, and is forced to live on social security in low-income housing? Can you live with that? Can you say, THEN, that he made his bed? Or will you be eating your heart out wishing you'd done something different? Will his NEW demands for your assistance (and there WILL be new demands), cause you to step in then, or hate yourself anew for not doing so?

Everyone has a different threshold for this type of manipulation -- understanding yours is probably the best way to solve this difficult problem.

As an aside, and without going into my own situation, I had a relative who was "going to live in abject poverty" because I refused to give her tens of thousands of dollars. She was SO unbelieveably demanding that all guilt and shame disappeared for me. BUT... once she could see that I was unmoveable she solved her own problem quite handily... and has a better sense of her own abilities since she pulled herself up by herself.

Don't be TOO sure that your father is at the end of his rope -- he's got this far under his own steam -- you're only one of many schemes he's probably cooked up to handle his latest challenge.

Whatever you decide, trust that it will be right for YOU. And good luck!
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