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Old 02-28-2016, 12:27 PM   #21
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Agreed

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Old 02-28-2016, 01:05 PM   #22
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Anyone can lie on a survey. I put more faith in the 401K/IRA retirement saving account numbers reported by Fidelity.
I do too, but only with the realization that "account value" is less than "amount of retirement savings". Account value skews low because many people have multiple accounts. How many retirement accounts do people have on average? That's a number I've not seen accompanying results of such reports.
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Old 02-28-2016, 01:26 PM   #23
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I do too, but only with the realization that "account value" is less than "amount of retirement savings". Account value skews low because many people have multiple accounts. How many retirement accounts do people have on average? That's a number I've not seen accompanying results of such reports.

Good point. I seriously doubt those gathering data from account numbers apply due diligence to acknowledge the fact that, for example, DW and I hold three IRAs, two 403b accts, a brokerage acct, and a defined contribution retirement account. That's seven investment/retirement accts for two individuals, each of which individually would paint a much different picture than the aggregate.
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Old 02-28-2016, 03:07 PM   #24
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As I grow older I have become more trusting of govt. It's the population I have lost faith in.
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Old 02-28-2016, 05:03 PM   #25
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As I grow older I have become more trusting of govt. It's the population I have lost faith in.
My thoughts are the opposite. Especially with the FBI/Apple debacle
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Old 02-28-2016, 05:18 PM   #26
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My thoughts are the opposite. Especially with the FBI/Apple debacle
If Americans count that little perturbation, which is very limited in scope and being handled quite well in a very transparent way inside our current system, as a "debacle," then we are truly blessed to be a people with minor problems. The fact that we are exercised about it is a good thing, too.
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Old 02-28-2016, 06:20 PM   #27
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Apple being allowed to appeal a court order and going all the way up to the SC is a debacle?

The US government is not perfect, but far from the worse. One needs to go live in another country, not just as a tourist, to understand how the locals are treated by its government. Usually, foreign tourists bring in money, so are left alone and they do not know how the natives live.

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I do too, but only with the realization that "account value" is less than "amount of retirement savings". Account value skews low because many people have multiple accounts. How many retirement accounts do people have on average? That's a number I've not seen accompanying results of such reports.
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Good point. I seriously doubt those gathering data from account numbers apply due diligence to acknowledge the fact that, for example, DW and I hold three IRAs, two 403b accts, a brokerage acct, and a defined contribution retirement account. That's seven investment/retirement accts for two individuals, each of which individually would paint a much different picture than the aggregate.
For us, it's his and her 401k's (3), his and her IRA at Schwab (2), his and her Roth at Schwab (2), his and her IRA at Vanguard (2), his SARSEP (1). So, that's 10 accounts.

I have after-tax investment accounts, which I definitely consider my retirement savings. That's another 7 accounts, not counting banking accounts.
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Old 02-28-2016, 06:57 PM   #28
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I thought the thread was about how little most Americans had saved. What does this have to do with how many accounts we have?

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Old 02-28-2016, 06:58 PM   #29
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It's because statistics count money in each account, and fail to compensate for the fact that people usually have several.

If they look at only my smallest account, they will say that this NW-Bound is going to eat cat food.
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Old 02-28-2016, 07:05 PM   #30
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Lies, D&mned lies, and Statistics


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Old 02-28-2016, 07:51 PM   #31
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As I grow older I have become more trusting of govt. It's the population I have lost faith in.
Yes, I'm starting to feel this way as well. The people on this forum are smarter and richer than most. Good for us!!
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Old 02-28-2016, 07:56 PM   #32
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As I grow older I have become more trusting of govt. It's the population I have lost faith in.

Funny. I feel more and more nervous about government the closer I get to collecting Social Security. 🤔


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Old 02-28-2016, 08:05 PM   #33
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As I grow older I have become more trusting of govt. It's the population I have lost faith in.
I have always been neutral between the government and the people, generally speaking. Both governments and peoples have been able to commit atrocities like genocide in the past.
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Old 02-28-2016, 08:26 PM   #34
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I'm not sure that this study is so inaccurate as some members of this forum are making out to be. The following is a clip from the report used for this study. Looks pretty well documented to me.

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Old 02-29-2016, 01:19 AM   #35
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The way I see this, at least 3/4 of the population of imminent retirees don't have much, if any, retirement savings. We of this forum would like to think that this is not our problem. For a while, I think it is unlikely to be our problem. However, eventually, if there is some sort of Arab spring here, it might become our problem. I hope it doesn't come to that.

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+1. Absolutely.

There is bound to be some forms of wealth transfer through this process. How it manifests itself is anyone's guess. Kitces talks about the risk of taxation to certain retirement accounts, inheritance tax changes, reduced SS, medical care costs where those who can afford cover those who can not...

It's all a bit ominous knowing someone will want your pile.

As senator said a few weeks ago " booze, lead and guns"
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Slightly more detailed info on how much American retirees have saved...
Old 02-29-2016, 09:18 AM   #36
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Slightly more detailed info on how much American retirees have saved...

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+1. Absolutely.

There is bound to be some forms of wealth transfer through this process. How it manifests itself is anyone's guess. Kitces talks about the risk of taxation to certain retirement accounts, inheritance tax changes, reduced SS, medical care costs where those who can afford cover those who can not...

It's all a bit ominous knowing someone will want your pile.

As senator said a few weeks ago " booze, lead and guns"

Not to be flippant, but in a broader context what exactly do you think the last 8 years, and ZIRP, have been all about? It has been a systematic transfer of wealth of enormous proportions from savers to spenders/debtors. If you have been a saver you have been under attack for years, and if the FED is crazy enough to follow the other fools down the rabbit hole to the land of NIRP, it will be a full-on nuclear war on savers.


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Old 02-29-2016, 10:14 AM   #37
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I'm not sure that this study is so inaccurate as some members of this forum are making out to be. The following is a clip from the report used for this study. Looks pretty well documented to me.
They asked people for the total savings. It's good.

In the past, many articles just used the balance of accounts at a brokerage or a 401k custodian to prove that retirees will be in dire straits.
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Old 02-29-2016, 12:52 PM   #38
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Not to be flippant, but in a broader context what exactly do you think the last 8 years, and ZIRP, have been all about? It has been a systematic transfer of wealth of enormous proportions from savers to spenders/debtors. If you have been a saver you have been under attack for years, and if the FED is crazy enough to follow the other fools down the rabbit hole to the land of NIRP, it will be a full-on nuclear war on savers.


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Except that savers benefited the most as the markets tripled, and companies had records profits and cash holdings. But yeah....


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Old 02-29-2016, 01:10 PM   #39
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Slightly more detailed info on how much American retirees have saved...

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Except that savers benefited the most as the markets tripled, and companies had records profits and cash holdings. But yeah....


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There is a big difference between savers (most) and stock market shareholders. While there is overlap, it is not any where near as great as you might think.

Edit: should also add that the tripling was from the bottom and for most stockholders the relevant benchmark is more like 50% i.e. The market was at 12,000 before plunging to 6,000 then going back to 16s today.

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Old 02-29-2016, 01:18 PM   #40
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As I grow older I have become more trusting of govt.
Exactly the opposite for me. When I was growing up I had a great deal of respect for the US government and I was very patriotic. Not anymore, however after traveling around the world several times, I still wouldn't want to live anywhere else. Read into that what you like.

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It's the population I have lost faith in.
Not me. Hard to lose something I never had.
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