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Old 02-29-2016, 01:21 PM   #41
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There is a big difference between savers (most) and stock market shareholders. While there is overlap, it is not any where near as great as you might think.


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Investment, by definition, is saving.


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Old 02-29-2016, 01:35 PM   #42
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Investment, by definition, is saving.


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Please. I am certain you understand the distinction for purposes of this discussion.


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Old 02-29-2016, 01:43 PM   #43
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Please. I am certain you understand the distinction for purposes of this discussion.


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You claimed savers are getting screwed by these policies. My market driven mortgage rate was locked at under 3%, my retirement savings in the markets have ballooned, all in the time frame you outlined. These are market driven and therefore public outcomes. I'm not a bondholder, but those guys did ok too.

The car company bailouts did ok, etc. I'm not seeing compelling evidence to support your point.




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Old 02-29-2016, 01:47 PM   #44
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Investment, by definition, is saving.
Saving is adding to your resources. Investing may or may not add & can reduce them.
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Old 02-29-2016, 01:52 PM   #45
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You claimed savers are getting screwed by these policies. My market driven mortgage rate was locked at under 3%, my retirement savings in the markets have ballooned, all in the time frame you outlined. These are market driven and therefore public outcomes. I'm not a bondholder, but those guys did ok too.

The car company bailouts did ok, etc. I'm not seeing compelling evidence to support your point.




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It is not a claim. It is a fact. When interest rates are driven artificially low to stimulate growth a DIRECT byproduct of that policy is transfer of wealth from savers to borrowers. That is a large aspect of the policy efficacy based upon the fact that borrowings dwarf savings in terms of impacting the economy.


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Old 02-29-2016, 02:19 PM   #46
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When interest rates are driven artificially low to stimulate growth a DIRECT byproduct of that policy is transfer of wealth from savers to borrowers.
I'd venture to say that the primary benefactors of such policies of governments worldwide is not to transfer wealth from Jane Saver to Joe Blow down the street but rather to reduce the real value of the massive government debts owed. Increasing inflation and fighting deflation is all towards the same end.

At any rate, I think this argument misses the point of this thread, which is "how much does my neighbor (probably) have saved and should I stock up on firearms and ammunition to a) protect my stash or b) take over his/her stash."
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Old 02-29-2016, 03:50 PM   #47
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I'd venture to say that the primary benefactors of such policies of governments worldwide is not to transfer wealth from Jane Saver to Joe Blow down the street but rather to reduce the real value of the massive government debts owed. Increasing inflation and fighting deflation is all towards the same end.

At any rate, I think this argument misses the point of this thread, which is "how much does my neighbor (probably) have saved and should I stock up on firearms and ammunition to a) protect my stash or b) take over his/her stash."

As I have already written, but will repeat, it is a consequence (byproduct) of the policy. The primary purpose is to "benefit" the economy by creating growth, and inflation, which will in-turn make it easier for massive debts to be repaid with cheaper dollars. Finally, the lowering of borrowing costs to government is also a dangerous byproduct.

The other writ large issue being played out through Central Bank interest rate intervention is a sub-rosa currency war. By driving interest rates lower than the next guy, you drive your currency lower, which in turn makes your exports cheaper. This is just plain old competitive currency devaluations of yore being played out with the absurdity of now negative interest rates by some players to get a devaluation advantage.

Honestly, this is all out of the basic Central Banker play book.

Nice little summary in this piece in The Economist: http://www.economist.com/blogs/butto...04/investing-0




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Old 02-29-2016, 04:23 PM   #48
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The period since the Great Recession of Ought-Eight has been pretty good for folks who already had savings and who understood the statistically favorable actions to take, but not so good for folks just starting out saving or who sold stock and stayed out of the market since then.

Bonds and CDs haven't done all that well since then.

For us boring old asset allocation and regular rebalance index fund investors, the time since the Great Recession has been pretty good, I think. If one also took advantage of tax loss harvesting in taxable accounts, it's been really good. (I can offset capital gains for HOW MANY DECADES)

For folks who didn't bother to save for retirement, well, maybe they have a pension, or perhaps they just plan to work until they can't and then shop the cat food sales. Planning ahead works better than denial.
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Old 02-29-2016, 05:06 PM   #49
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Yes, I'm starting to feel this way as well. The people on this forum are smarter and richer than most. Good for us!!
Very true... if your net worth is over $1, you are worth more than the poorest 40% of all Americans combined.
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Old 02-29-2016, 05:14 PM   #50
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True, according to the report that says "41% of these households have no retirement savings whatsoever." Zero times 100 million is still less than $1.

But it only applies to retirement savings. Counting other assets, it's a different story. All together, how many smartphones they have bought and owned, compared to my used and obsolete iPhone 3? How many cars and homes? And when they draw SS, what does that add up to?

Speaking of my iPhone 3, it's abandoned by Apple and I cannot update iOS. Quite a few apps no longer run. What the hell? I am pissed. It works well enough for me, and I do not care to carry a new phone as big as a tablet. Have I said I am pissed?
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Old 02-29-2016, 05:15 PM   #51
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Exactly the opposite for me. When I was growing up I had a great deal of respect for the US government and I was very patriotic. Not anymore, however after traveling around the world several times, I still wouldn't want to live anywhere else. Read into that what you like.

I actually came from the opposite direction. Not a flag waver, but have come to realize the great opportunities available.
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Old 02-29-2016, 05:20 PM   #52
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Speaking of my iPhone 3, it's abandoned by Apple and I cannot update iOS. Quite a few apps no longer run. What the hell? I am pissed. It works well enough for me, and I do not care to carry a new phone as big as a tablet. Have I said I am pissed?
I've never been able to get my iPod to make calls.
Lol!
I have a three on dresser for four years. Can't bear to toss it. Maybe pair it with yours for a six?
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Old 02-29-2016, 06:16 PM   #53
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Speaking of my iPhone 3, it's abandoned by Apple and I cannot update iOS. Quite a few apps no longer run. What the hell? I am pissed. It works well enough for me, and I do not care to carry a new phone as big as a tablet. Have I said I am pissed?
Honestly, you probably wouldn't want to update the OS anyway if given the option. New/updated firmware and apps are much, much, much more bloated nowadays and will likely just hang or crash constantly on older hardware.

Iirc, the 3G only has 128MB RAM and the 3GS 256MB. The iPhone 5 and higher have at least 1GB and even then, there are plenty of complaints about these devices being RAM-starved.
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Old 02-29-2016, 06:28 PM   #54
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Saving is adding to your resources. Investing may or may not add & can reduce them.

No, saving is the delay or forgoing of consumption. This is fundamental finance theory. Investing is just the transfer of consumption and value through time.


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Old 02-29-2016, 06:32 PM   #55
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It is not a claim. It is a fact. When interest rates are driven artificially low to stimulate growth a DIRECT byproduct of that policy is transfer of wealth from savers to borrowers. That is a large aspect of the policy efficacy based upon the fact that borrowings dwarf savings in terms of impacting the economy.


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Sure, in theory, but what really happened was we printed money to move those rates, which displaced the savers in the risk-less asset classes, driving up the value of not only those assets, but also riskier assets. So I say again, assets that that savings end up in, from bonds to high risk stock have all benefited from Zirp.... So far. How it unwinds is scary part.


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Old 02-29-2016, 11:27 PM   #56
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Ever wonder if a thread has gone off the tracks?
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Old 03-01-2016, 06:59 AM   #57
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Last June, the Government Accountability Office released a detailed report on, among other things, the current financial status of households between the ages of 55 and 64. The main goal was to measure the retirement savings for this group. Here's the distribution that researchers found.
From my perspective, I do not place much credence on any statistics coming from the Gummit.
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Old 03-01-2016, 10:24 AM   #58
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Speaking of my iPhone 3, it's abandoned by Apple and I cannot update iOS. Quite a few apps no longer run. What the hell? I am pissed. It works well enough for me, and I do not care to carry a new phone as big as a tablet. Have I said I am pissed?

I find your lack of consumerism to be totally unAmerican; and, it is because of people like you that won't spend to keep the economy moving forward that the rest of us doing our part must suffer through such low yields. 😜

NOTE: should be read while listening to Bare Naked Ladies "Never Is Enough".


http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/baren...risenough.html


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Old 03-01-2016, 12:38 PM   #59
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I find your lack of consumerism to be totally unAmerican; and, it is because of people like you that won't spend to keep the economy moving forward that the rest of us doing our part must suffer through such low yields. ��

NOTE: should be read while listening to Bare Naked Ladies "Never Is Enough".

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/baren...risenough.html
Rub it in! We often feel guilty about it, so we have to give some money away so we can sleep at night.

Just look up on Quicken, and in the past 5 years (3/1/2011-3/1/2016) the category of Gifts & Donations makes up 14.35% of total expenses (income tax excluded). I am not religious, but if there's a God, I hope he/she will have mercy on my soul for not believing.
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Old 03-01-2016, 12:44 PM   #60
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Forgot to mention that this iPhone 3GS came from my children when they upgraded 2 years ago. Prior to this, I had no smartphone. This is still the only smartphone I have ever used.

I decided that the monthly data plan was worth it, just so I could use GasBuddy app when RV'ing. I would save enough money from gas to pay for it, plus tethering the phone to my laptop allows me to check on my portfolio while traveling.

PS. The phone is usually turned off.

PPS. The startup I cofounded with a couple of friends was engaged in helping carriers rolling out the then-new 1G digital phone (GSM). We were just one among many in this cottage industry back then, though we did have up to 20 employees and a few regional offices. This technology came from Europe back in the mid 90s. We were consulting them on the deployment of the wireless network and the testing. I was among the first few in the US who had a digital phone. However, I do not care to be constantly on the phone, so was never interested in the phone as a user, let alone smartphones. It's the same as drug dealers usually not using their merchandise.
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