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Re: Stock Market Valuations and Entry Point.......
Old 12-22-2004, 06:49 PM   #21
 
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Re: Stock Market Valuations and Entry Point.......

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Regarding the hispanics wanting to enter the US, I purpose we do an exchange program...since so many liberals want to leave, I say we do an exchange program on a one to one basis with Mexcio....the liberals leave, and the Mexicans come in.

Billy
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Yup, I think the U.S. will start to look a lot like Mexico or other Latin American Nations. A few very, very rich and a lot of very, very poor.

Your suggestion will accelerate the process.
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Re: Stock Market Valuations and Entry Point.......
Old 12-22-2004, 08:06 PM   #22
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Re: Stock Market Valuations and Entry Point.......

Hey, CT I pay my help $10 per hour ..... what are you
doing to help the local economy?

Cheers,

Charlie

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Re: Stock Market Valuations and Entry Point.......
Old 12-22-2004, 09:14 PM   #23
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Re: Stock Market Valuations and Entry Point.......

Some of you guys can't see beyond your own noses. And if you could, you wouldn't know what to make of what you see.

Mikey
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Re: Stock Market Valuations and Entry Point.......
Old 12-23-2004, 05:30 AM   #24
 
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Re: Stock Market Valuations and Entry Point.......

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Hey, CT I pay my help $10 per hour ..... what are you
doing to help the local economy?

Cheers,

Charlie
I am not saying that you are doing anything wrong with giving the poor guy $10 an hour. I just don't see any reason to be so gleeful and hopeful about it. I understand that it is a great deal for you.

Put yourself in this guy's shoes. We all say, that $20K per year would not sustain us. So how can it sustain anyone else?

If this is the future of the U.S. , it's not something that I look forward to. Our ancestors fought hard for Union rights and Benefits. This made the middle class strong and is what I believe built the U.S.A. These institutions are being dismanteled one by one and to me it does not look like a pretty picture.

We seem to be sacrificing the average workers for executives at the top, that make an ever increasing amount of money.

I've seen these other countires in the world, and I just don't like where we are headed. It bothers me deeply.
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Re: Stock Market Valuations and Entry Point.......
Old 12-23-2004, 06:10 AM   #25
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Re: Stock Market Valuations and Entry Point.......

>>If this is the future of the U.S. , it's not something that I look forward to.

The future is here already...today in my local paper I read about a division of Danaher closing down (or really threatening to close down) one of the last manufacturing companies in the Springfield, MA area...UNLESS the plant (i.e. the workers) can come up with $7,000,000 in costs savings, or they added, if the state is willing to essentially cough up that money and give it to the company in exchange for keep the 330 jobs, with an average wage of $14 per hour, in the state...otherwise they are going to Texas where they can pay people $7/hour.

Last year alone, the CEO was paid $57,000,000 in total compensation. If you figure 2500 hours per year, thats about $22,800 PER HOUR.

If *somehow*, the CEO could have managed to scrape by on "just" $50,000,000 (or $20,000 per hour) all those 330 jobs could stay, and the company would be just as profitable that year.

This isn't about free markets, its about exploiting workers...pitting the $14/hour Mass workers against the $7/hr texas workers, and probably the $7/hr texas workers against the $2/hr mexicans and the $2/hr mexicans against the $0.50/hour Chinese....

The american worker has a lot to look forward too...at least the top 5%...and screw everyone else.

Obviously its the greedy union workers here living high on the hog at $14/hour that are the problem...not the CEO who gets paid more than that every 3 seconds.

Oh, and it was very nice of the company to announce this 1 week before christmas...nice touch.

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Re: Stock Market Valuations and Entry Point.......
Old 12-23-2004, 07:32 AM   #26
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Re: Stock Market Valuations and Entry Point.......

CT, I should have added that he already has a full
time job elsewhere. I only employ him about 14
hrs per week. I am not "gleeful" at only paying
him $10 per hour ..... you make it sound like I am
"exploiting" him. That is more than a fair wage for
janitorial work in my area. I am "hopeful" that my
laundry will recover its profitability. Why do you
insist on making everything fit your political bias?

Charlie
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Re: Stock Market Valuations and Entry Point.......
Old 12-23-2004, 08:46 AM   #27
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Re: Stock Market Valuations and Entry Point.......

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I say we do an exchange program on a one to one basis with Mexcio....the liberals leave, and the Mexicans come in.
Billy
website *www.geocities.com/ba264
It'd never fly. Mexico's standards are too high!
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Re: Stock Market Valuations and Entry Point.......
Old 12-23-2004, 09:06 AM   #28
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Re: Stock Market Valuations and Entry Point.......

I view the stock market as having a current price, the earnings yield. It is neither 'overbought nor oversold'. The return may come as a slow stable return or as a current loss leading to a higher expected return, or a current gain leading to a lower expected return.

Generally I would expect stock earnings yield (real due to reinvestment of earnings) to equal bond yields (nominal since no internal reinvestment) due to differences in investing costs and maturity. Unfortunately, I'm can't tell which side will adjust to re-establish the relationship.

I'd also like to point out that few companies actually miss their earnings estimates, while many analysts can't get their estimates right. The comapny actually had to do something, not just talk about it. (personal pet peeve)
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Re: Stock Market Valuations and Entry Point.......
Old 12-23-2004, 09:46 AM   #29
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Re: Stock Market Valuations and Entry Point.......

[quote]

I am not saying that you are doing anything wrong with giving the poor guy $10 an hour. I just don't see any reason to be so gleeful and hopeful about it. I understand that it is a great deal for you.

Put yourself in this guy's shoes. We all say, that $20K per year would not sustain us. So how can it sustain anyone else?

Cutthroat: You are way out of line here!
Charly is 70 years old, operates a laundromat to supplement his income, and pays a guy $10.00 an hour for clean-up work. (Seems damn reasonable to me).
I think one of your trips to a warm climate may be in order
Jarhead

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Re: Stock Market Valuations and Entry Point.......
Old 12-23-2004, 01:12 PM   #30
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Re: Stock Market Valuations and Entry Point.......

I really don't think Cut-Throat is talking about whether Charley's worker is adequately paid or not. As Charley pointed out, his laundromat is not doing all that well, and he porbably could not afford to pay more anyway.

I think Cut-Throat is talking about something broader, whether this 2-tier society that we are building augers well for our future as a nation. I believe he thinks that it does not, and I agree completely. It doesn't matter that I am one of life's winners, as are my children and everybody in my family. I still think it is exploitave, and if anyone has any balls left eventually they will tire of it.

You know, a free market at base means that if your product is tradeable, your wages will tend toward those of China.

Terrific idea! Then ask young men and women to go to Iraq and get blown up to preserve this.

America is a nation, not a cafeteria where anyone can come and take whatever is there for him to take, figure out how to avoid or minimize taxes on his haul, and then go back home.

I realize this is not currently fashionable sentiment, but if we are to prosper as a nation it will have to become so.

Mikey
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Re: Stock Market Valuations and Entry Point.......
Old 12-23-2004, 01:21 PM   #31
 
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Re: Stock Market Valuations and Entry Point.......

Thanks Mikey! - You completely hit the nail on the head and said it much better I.

It was not targeted at Charlie or any individual, just an observation of what has been going on in this country for the last 25 years.
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Re: Stock Market Valuations and Entry Point.......
Old 12-23-2004, 01:33 PM   #32
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Re: Stock Market Valuations and Entry Point.......

I think Cut-Throat is talking about something broader, whether this 2-tier society that we are building augers well for our future as a nation.

I worry about the squeeze on the middle-class worker.
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Re: Stock Market Valuations and Entry Point.......
Old 12-23-2004, 04:50 PM   #33
 
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Re: Stock Market Valuations and Entry Point.......

Cut_Throat and Mikey, back into political discourse again? . Mikey, your post (in spite of Cut-Throat's attaboy) is mostly all liberal bleeding-heart crap. You guys need to get a grip. Normally I might cut you some
slack (CHPs?) but you are getting out into Bizarro World. I say, hire whoever you want for any reason you want. Pay them whatever you wish. If they don't like it they can go elsewhere. Pure capitalism. It used to be that way in this country. So, Cut-Throat, listen to
Jarhead and take Mikey with you And BTW, although I am royally P.O.ed with the inflow of Hispanics, if Mexico
would just take our liberals, I would welcome the Mexicans with open arms. I am quite serious about that.

JG
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Re: Stock Market Valuations and Entry Point.......
Old 12-23-2004, 05:59 PM   #34
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Re: Stock Market Valuations and Entry Point.......

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Cut_Throat and Mikey, back into political discourse again? *. *Mikey, your post (in spite of Cut-Throat's attaboy) is mostly all liberal bleeding-heart crap.*
Way to go, Johhny Boy. Spoken with a deep understanding that must be part of your Mensa-Man training.

Keep it up, man.

Mikey
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Re: Stock Market Valuations and Entry Point.......
Old 12-23-2004, 07:37 PM   #35
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Re: Stock Market Valuations and Entry Point.......

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You know, a free market at base means that if your product is tradeable, your wages will tend toward those of China.

Mikey
Mikey,

I understand where you and Cut-Throat are coming from, but artificial preservation of an economic way of life for one class (i.e. the middle class) is contrary to the capitalist model. The goal of companies is to minimize expenses and maximize profits. They are not engines for social engineering.

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Re: Stock Market Valuations and Entry Point.......
Old 12-23-2004, 08:20 PM   #36
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Re: Stock Market Valuations and Entry Point.......

Where to begin...I agree that a strong middle class is likely to be good for the nation's future. Unlike some however, I don't believe the "two tier" society we are supposedly developing is due to some dark conspiracy of exploitative capitalists. I do think the rest of the world has figured out how to make "stuff" as well and cheaper than we in the USA. The jig is up.

History shows how nations have traded places as the dominant economic power, as the basis for wealth changes. Why should the USA be any different? The "invisible hand" of economics will have it's way with us, sooner or later.

Life isn't fair, never has been, never will be. No amount of legislation will make it so. And anyone who goes to "WallyMart" to save a buck is as much a part of the problem as "corporate greed".

Er, I'm going back to my egg nog now :P

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Re: Stock Market Valuations and Entry Point.......
Old 12-24-2004, 12:51 AM   #37
 
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Re: Stock Market Valuations and Entry Point.......

Hey Mikey! Just like Rush Limbaugh, when I deal with
libs, I have half my brain tied behind my back, just to make it fair

JG
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Re: Stock Market Valuations and Entry Point.......
Old 12-24-2004, 04:16 AM   #38
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Re: Stock Market Valuations and Entry Point.......

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Where to begin...I agree that a strong middle class is likely to be good for the nation's future. Unlike some however, I don't believe the "two tier" society we are supposedly developing is due to some dark conspiracy of exploitative capitalists. I do think the rest of the world has figured out how to make "stuff" as well and cheaper than we in the USA. The jig is up.
So is the goal of a nation to be a continuous engine of innovation, and commensurate with such innovation, encourage (if not mandate) education for its workforce? The days of graduating from high school (whatever that education is worth) and taking a job in a manufacturing plant for the next 30 years are over. Computer skills are absolutely critical, even for the guy/gal on the manufacturing line. It would seem that a reluctance on the part of the American worker to learn the skills necessary to either drive the engine of innovation, or at least help keep it repaired and running smooth, is exacerbating the desire of companies to offshore their operations to countries such as India that have educated workforces. Yes, the individuals in such countries will work for half the wage demanded by American workers (and the cost of living is half or less than it is here), but companies might consider those extra costs acceptable (or be given tax incentives to offset them) if they could find a comparable workforce in America.

Quote:
History shows how nations have traded places as the dominant economic power, as the basis for wealth changes. Why should the USA be any different? The "invisible hand" of economics will have it's way with us, sooner or later.
Agreed. America had a tremendous advantage at the end of World War II, in that its economy and manufacturing sector was the only one left standing. Having such a head start allowed America to remain dominant through the 1970s, at which point countries like Japan and Germany had repaired their economies and manufacturing sectors to such a degree that they could compete with (if not surpass) the quality and cost of American goods. Although we do not want to end up like any number of world powers (empires) that rose and fell within a few hundred years, that is the fate we face unless there is significant change in the next couple of decades. Simply preserving the status quo to satisfy a large voting block (such as the Baby Boomer generation) as they retire and move into the politically-active senior citizen class is not going to do it.

Quote:
Life isn't fair, never has been, never will be. No amount of legislation will make it so. And anyone who goes to "WallyMart" to save a buck is as much a part of the problem as "corporate greed".

Er, I'm going back to my egg nog now :P
True, we FIRE types are always looking to save a buck or two, and we do shop at stores where the goods are manufactured cheaply overseas. Yet why shouldn't we? The whole idea of "Buy American" for the mere sake of doing so is economic isolationism without purpose that, while in the short term may preserve American jobs, will likely cause America to fall behind those countries that are not so isolated in their buying habits. One need only look at the former Soviet Union to see how restricting access (although in our case it is for now voluntary, but may be enforced by the government) to domestic goods leads to a lack of quality and/or innovation on the part of domestic manufacturers, while the rest of the world flourishes.
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Re: Stock Market Valuations and Entry Point.......
Old 12-24-2004, 05:19 AM   #39
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Re: Stock Market Valuations and Entry Point.......

Our firm has a client that employees about 100 people in manufacturing certain specialized clothing. The owner is a long time friend of mine. He strongly believes in our community and cares about his employees. He pays as much as he can and still manage some growth and pay the bills. He has been approached a number of times the companies he purchases fabric from and they have tried to get him to move his manufacturing to China--saying that is the road to growth and he could make much, much more money. He isn't going to do it. This has got to be rare. In the end, it might destroy his ability to compete as others begin to more cheaply manufacture and sell the same products. I have no idea what we can do about it.

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Re: Stock Market Valuations and Entry Point.......
Old 12-24-2004, 06:09 AM   #40
 
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Re: Stock Market Valuations and Entry Point.......

Most of you seem rather pleased here at the demise of the middle class. Let me remind you, we are a democracy first and capitalist country second.

When the masses wake up, there will be a politician to offer a solution. *

Don't confuse a great form of government with a great economic engine!
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