Stock up on gas now or pay $5 later

Sounds like I need to buy a little USO again to pop this thing.
Now looks like an excellent time for you to buy...

If it is any consolation, I had some feathers singed by following the herd on USO as well. I've been more fortunate with my purchase of USL, making up for my USO losses and then some.
 
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It surely looks like quite a few do dabble in market timing or sector play without openly admitting to it. The truth will out. Heh heh heh...

PS. Uncle Mick has been absent for a while. If he does not log in anymore, I will take over his signature.
 
It surely looks like quite a few do dabble in market timing or sector play without openly admitting to it. The truth will out. Heh heh heh....
I don't want to waste your time or mine by getting into another pissing match about the difference between "market timing" and "rebalancing".
 
Sounds like I need to buy a little USO again to pop this thing.

Seriously, though, the speculators are going to wreck any recovery by dampening it with much higher oil prices. The correlation between oil prices, economic indicators and the stock market has never been higher in my recollection.

I agree. I do however buy the UCO which acts twice as volatile as USO. So I was able to take a little off the table at $12.50 a couple of weeks ago. Plan on picking more up again back in the low 10 range.
 
I don't want to waste your time or mine by getting into another pissing match about the difference between "market timing" and "rebalancing".
It's too bad my joking/taunting was taken as a pissing match.

But that's OK. Maybe I push it too far. So, let me change my earlier post.

It surely looks like quite a few do dabble in [-]market timing or [/-]sector play without openly admitting to it. The truth will out. Heh heh heh...
Is there any write up on how rebalancing involves buying specialized ETFs? ;)

Anyway, it does not really matter to me what it is called. If one sees something that he perceives as a good deal, what is wrong if he wants to buy more of it? Yes, even if he turned out to be wrong sometimes.

Why are people afraid of being "accused" of making judgements on the value of something? I am still trying to figure this out.
 
It surely looks like quite a few do dabble in market timing or sector play without openly admitting to it. The truth will out. Heh heh heh...

Excuse me.... I think you are confusing market timing with a Tactical Allocation. :D
 
I appreciate your pointing out the derogatory meaning of the word. I usually took it in the more lighthearted manner, and I was wrong. I should not use that word.

But, but, but, back to my other question, are we allowed to spot a bargain and load up on it? Or must we tell ourselves all the time that it is just a mirage?
 
REWahoo, maybe I ticked you off because I appeared to pick on you. It is just because we have exchanged a few posts over the years, and I always thought it was on friendly terms. I really was just teasing and did not expect you to get offended. You may not remember, but I first learned of the term "DMT" from an exchange of posts with you. ;)

The heart of the matter is that I do not understand why people are so afraid of making some judgement calls. Now, most of the time, I am not sure I know what the hell I am doing, hence it is better to follow the crowd. But I try to spot bargains all the time, and have had a few successes along with failures. Of course I am always too chicken to load it up on the successful trades, else would be filthy rich.

I fully understand where Bogle and Malkiel are coming from. I have not actually read any of Bogle's books, but I enjoyed Malkiel's "Random Walk". As I have told this story many times, I had friends who loaded up on gold in the late 80s and got burned bad. So, just like most of us, I do not veer too far off the well-beaten path. One feels more secure in the middle of the crowd.

But as it turns out, we all have a bit of risk taking in us, and we do all make some small bets outside of the index. ;) What I do not understand is why people are so ashamed of it? Why is it that the practical way of investing of Bogle becomes a dogma?

And by the way, because I do not "get out" much on the Web. I did not know of the Boglehead forum until I read about it on this forum. However, I do not go there, because it seems to me there are too many hardcore Boglehead types there, who act like religious fanatics. Fanatics of any kind turn me off.
 
But, but, but, back to my other question, are we allowed to spot a bargain and load up on it? Or must we tell ourselves all the time that it is just a mirage?

Let's all play nice here, kids. Man, its not even 5 o clock yet and people are getting touchy.

Back to your question: Many posters seem to want ideological purity in investing. If you claim to be an asset allocator, they get bent out of shape when you talk about your latest speculations. If you make no claims to worshipping at the altar of strict allocation, you get cut a lot of slack (Haha and I make no claims to allocating and don't get yelled at for it) but also see a lot of your posts hang in space. While the insistence on purity may seem silly, I think there is some merit in it. Its extremely difficult to be unemotional with your investments. Those who have gone to asset allocation often did so to take the emotion out of it, correctly realizing that getting tripped up by emotions happens to a lot of people and can cost you a lot of money. If the allocator starts backsliding around the edges, it can be a very slippery slope and one can quickly find themselves back in the alligator pit of making emotionally-driven decisions that prove disastrous. So many of the allocators are quick to cry foul when one of their own starts slipping.

So I think there is a reasonably sound reason for people to cry foul. Does not mean that it is right for your specific situation, but for the average investor it is probably a useful social mechanism to keep them on the "sunny side."
 
The heart of the matter is that I do not understand why people are so afraid of making some judgement calls.
I can't speak for others who do not attempt to time the market, but I don't see my strategy having anything to do with fear of making some judgment calls. My personal experience is that I'm not intelligent, informed or lucky enough to time the market. I learned that lesson the hard way by getting my @ss handed to me by Mr. Market a couple of decades ago. I view my behavior as educated rather than afraid.

But as it turns out, we all have a bit of risk taking in us, and we do all make some small bets outside of the index. ;) What I do not understand is why people are so ashamed of it? Why is it that the practical way of investing of Bogle becomes a dogma?
You are painting with a broad brush.

I do not currently hold any index funds nor did I do so while building my portfolio. One does not have to own index funds or worship Bogle to maintain a "buy and and rebalance to maintain a defined asset allocation" strategy.

Fanatics of any kind turn me off.
I agree. I'm also giving you the benefit of the doubt regarding the implication I am a fanatic.
 
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Hey, thanks for the explanation.

Let's all play nice here, kids. Man, its not even 5 o clock yet and people are getting touchy.
I am still in jesting mood. ;)
Back to your question: Many posters seem to want ideological purity in investing. If you claim to be an asset allocator, they get bent out of shape when you talk about your latest speculations.

If you make no claims to worshipping at the altar of strict allocation, you get cut a lot of slack (Haha and I make no claims to allocating and don't get yelled at for it) but also see a lot of your posts hang in space.
Ah! So, it is like a religion after all. Say, some religions do not allow alcohol, and if you drink, you get expelled. But if you never belong, then they do not care. Is it the same way? :cool:

While the insistence on purity may seem silly, I think there is some merit in it. Its extremely difficult to be unemotional with your investments. Those who have gone to asset allocation often did so to take the emotion out of it, correctly realizing that getting tripped up by emotions happens to a lot of people and can cost you a lot of money. If the allocator starts backsliding around the edges, it can be a very slippery slope and one can quickly find themselves back in the alligator pit of making emotionally-driven decisions that prove disastrous. So many of the allocators are quick to cry foul when one of their own starts slipping.
Fully understood.
...for the average investor it is probably a useful social mechanism to keep them on the "sunny side."
Of course! I was too dumb to realize that. I guess my staying out of the Boglehead forum is the right move. By your post, you and Haha would not be welcome there either. :greetings10:
 
$5 a gallon? You guys crack me up. Please point us Europeans at anywhere we can get gas at less than $6.50 a gallon today (that's about the price in Luxembourg or Spain; more like $8.00 in France and Germany). And we drive pretty much the same cars you do nowadays too, unlike a few years back when y'all were getting 15mpg.

:LOL: I was wondering if any of you guys would chip in.

One thing I noticed when we moved here from England in 1987 was that even though gas was a quarter of the price/gallon that our annual gas bill didn't change much. That was because we had 2 family cars - a Camry and a Corolla, so not gas guzzlers, but I commuted 50 miles round trip
every day instead of 15 miles every 4th day. (The one car we had in England for a family of 4 was a small 1300cc car and I car-pooled with 3 other guys).
 
Market timing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Market timing
is the strategy of making buy or sell decisions of financial assets (often stocks) by attempting to predict future market price movements. The prediction may be based on an outlook of market or economic conditions resulting from technical or fundamental analysis. This is an investment strategy based on the outlook for an aggregate market, rather than for a particular financial asset.

++++

Asset allocation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Asset allocation is the process of choosing among possible asset classes.
A large part of financial planning consists of finding an asset allocation that is appropriate for a given investor in terms of their appetite for and ability to shoulder risk. This can depend on various factors; see investor profile. Asset Allocation is the product of an examination of an investor's needs and objectives. Asset allocation, done well, is a plan to invest in assets or asset classes which will best meet the needs and objectives of the investor. Investors seeking high returns and willing to expose their investments to an elevated amount of risk will allocate to equity(ownership) investments. Investors seeking stability and income will allocate to debt investments. Most investors, particularly personal investors, will find mixtures of equity and debt investments most nearly meets their needs. Asset Allocation can be practised by optimization techniques, minimizing risk for a given level of return or maximising return for a given level of risk. It also can be accomplished as goal based investing.
===============


Asset Allocation is simply a subset of Market Timing.
The technique used is the difference between AA and other market timing techniques. The AA market timers are using price (technical analysis) and their AA as the the timing tool.



An AA market timer makes changes when their AA is out of balance from what they established. When one asset is off (e.g. higher) from the established AA the market timer is saying that that asset is at a high and at a good point to take a profit.

I do not think a person who never changed their investments would be a market timer.
 
Let's see...

How do I stock enough for my RV trip to Alaska? Pulling a tank trailer behind the motor home?

Fill up the black, gray and fresh water tanks, and add a tank to the roof.

I have not tried to see what I can carry on the roof, but your suggested method would give me a mere total of 155 gal. At 9mpg, that gives me 1500 mi. That does not even get me to Banff! The total round trip is going to be around 8000 mi, not including excursions with the toad. At 9mpg, that's nearly 900 gal, and at $5/gal, it's $4500. Of course gas is more expensive in Canada.

I need to jettison the toad and tow a tank trailer. Let's see here... 900 gal x 6lbs/gal = 5400 lbs, not including the weight of the trailer. More than the motor home can tow. Does not work either!

I already have some energy stocks, but it may not be enough. I better up my stakes to mitigate the higher cost of this "lifetime" trip. And then, to Newfoundland too, and who knows where else. How much money do I need to put in energy stocks for this? Maybe leverage up with some LEAP options? :angel:
 
$5 a gallon? You guys crack me up. Please point us Europeans at anywhere we can get gas at less than $6.50 a gallon today (that's about the price in Luxembourg or Spain; more like $8.00 in France and Germany). And we drive pretty much the same cars you do nowadays too, unlike a few years back when y'all were getting 15mpg.

Yes, but don't you have a fairly elaborate public transportation system throughout Europe?

Except for the larger cities, public transportation is non-existent in the US.
Intercity travel is either by airline or private vehicle. Amtrak coverage nationwide is spotty, and no one rides long distance buses anymore except the indigent. For a large portion of the population, owning and fueling a vehicle is a necessity.
 
Yes, but don't you have a fairly elaborate public transportation system throughout Europe?

Yes, paid for by the very high "carbon taxes" on gasoline and diesel. Even large rural countries like Spain (~65% the size of Texas) have very good public transportation.
 
Market timing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Market timing
is the strategy of making buy or sell decisions of financial assets (often stocks) by attempting to predict future market price movements. The prediction may be based on an outlook of market or economic conditions resulting from technical or fundamental analysis. This is an investment strategy based on the outlook for an aggregate market, rather than for a particular financial asset.

++++

Asset allocation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Asset allocation is the process of choosing among possible asset classes.
A large part of financial planning consists of finding an asset allocation that is appropriate for a given investor in terms of their appetite for and ability to shoulder risk. This can depend on various factors; see investor profile. Asset Allocation is the product of an examination of an investor's needs and objectives. Asset allocation, done well, is a plan to invest in assets or asset classes which will best meet the needs and objectives of the investor. Investors seeking high returns and willing to expose their investments to an elevated amount of risk will allocate to equity(ownership) investments. Investors seeking stability and income will allocate to debt investments. Most investors, particularly personal investors, will find mixtures of equity and debt investments most nearly meets their needs. Asset Allocation can be practised by optimization techniques, minimizing risk for a given level of return or maximising return for a given level of risk. It also can be accomplished as goal based investing.
===============

Asset Allocation is simply a subset of Market Timing.
The technique used is the difference between AA and other market timing techniques. The AA market timers are using price (technical analysis) and their AA as the the timing tool.

An AA market timer makes changes when their AA is out of balance from what they established. When one asset is off (e.g. higher) from the established AA the market timer is saying that that asset is at a high and at a good point to take a profit.

I do not think a person who never changed their investments would be a market timer. (color added)

:confused:
The conclusion, which I've highlighted in blue, doesn't follow from these definitions. An investor following an asset allocation plan sells the assets that are above their target level and buys those that are below the target because the overall allocation has been chosen to result in a portfolio with specific characteristics of return and risk, and too great a deviation from the targets for each asset class means that the portfolio will no longer have the desired characteristics. If the amount of stock in my portfolio goes up to 40%, I move some of my money out of stocks and into bonds or cash, not because I think this means stocks are at a top, but because I don't want the extra volatility inherent in a higher equity allocation. An investor whose target allocation was 50/50 would be buying stocks at the same time I was selling, not because s/he thinks that they are due to go up, but to obtain the higher returns that come with a higher percentage of the portfolio in equities. This is not using price as a signal. My "sell signal" for equities is "above 35% of portfolio", not "above some specific price". If each asset class is at or near its target, an investor following an asset allocation plan doesn't move money from one to another—prices moving up or down or hitting a certain level don't enter into the decision. Anyone who has read even a few threads on the bogleheads list has probably seen the admonition, "stay the course", meaning stick to your asset allocation and ignore the siren song of price signals, fundamental ratios or anything else that might divert you from it.

Rebalancing to a target allocation is a response to what the market has already done, not an attempt to predict what it will do in the future. I know I can't predict the future. What I like about an asset allocation plan is that I don't need to be able to, to carry it out successfully.
 
:confused:
The conclusion, which I've highlighted in blue, doesn't follow from these definitions. An investor following an asset allocation plan sells the assets that are above their target level and buys those that are below the target because the overall allocation has been chosen to result in a portfolio with specific characteristics of return and risk, and too great a deviation from the targets for each asset class means that the portfolio will no longer have the desired characteristics. If the amount of stock in my portfolio goes up to 40%, I move some of my money out of stocks and into bonds or cash, not because I think this means stocks are at a top, but because I don't want the extra volatility inherent in a higher equity allocation. An investor whose target allocation was 50/50 would be buying stocks at the same time I was selling, not because s/he thinks that they are due to go up, but to obtain the higher returns that come with a higher percentage of the portfolio in equities.
Good explanantion of AA

This is not using price as a signal. My "sell signal" for equities is "above 35% of portfolio", not "above some specific price".

The price change is what changes the percentages. It is a specific price. If the price did not change the % would not have changed.



If each asset class is at or near its target, an investor following an asset allocation plan doesn't move money from one to another—prices moving up or down or hitting a certain level don't enter into the decision. Anyone who has read even a few threads on the bogleheads list has probably seen the admonition, "stay the course", meaning stick to your asset allocation and ignore the siren song of price signals, fundamental ratios and anything else that might divert you from it.


Rebalancing to a target allocation is a response to what the market has already done, not an attempt to predict what it will do in the future. I know I can't predict the future. What I like about an asset allocation plan is that I don't need to be able to, to carry it out successfully.

"target allocation is a response to what the market has already done" and an expectations for the future for the market - e.g. the risk above 35% is above your risk level meaning the fear of a market decline. If these expectations for the market were not there; there would be no need to rebalance. See the bolded words in the first quoted section.
 
I'm also giving you the benefit of the doubt regarding the implication I am a fanatic.
Eh, we both know there is no point in discussing with a fanatic.

Asset Allocation is simply a subset of Market Timing.
The technique used is the difference between AA and other market timing techniques. The AA market timers are using price (technical analysis) and their AA as the the timing tool.

At the risk of beating this to death, I second Dex's post above. While people claim not to make a prediction of where the market is heading, they are actually making a bet on the "reversion to the mean", which is still a prediction of where prices are going.

Yes, it is true that the normal rebalancing is using pure price or technical analysis. P/E ratio and any other fundamental measure are not used, even when the latter offer some more insight. I can think of an example. In the 2000 tech bubble, many analysts warned of the impending burst. They said that the "information technology" stocks had grown to become too large a percentage of the S&P 500, in fact way larger than it used to be (I do not remember the actual numbers). Proponents of the tech stocks said that it was a new paradigm. It was the "new economy". I remember thinking to myself that we still needed more than just silicon chips. Don't we still need potato chips? Of course we knew how it turned out. Then, in the years leading to the housing bubble and the subsequent financial burst, I remember someone also noted that the financial sector was getting too big for its britches. Yes, same disastrous results.

Now, if someone rebalances by slicing and dicing the sectors based on P/E, do you call them market timing? If someone got out of the 2000 tech stocks with high P/E or actually negative E, was he market timing too? Or avoiding buying a new home in bubble areas in 2006? Note that he made the decision based on fundamentals, while the normal portfolio balancers only use prices. Perhaps that is the main discrimination between mainstream rebalancers and the "market timers"; the former use price and price only with no regards to fundamentals. It is curious as to how one becomes a DMT if he looks for more signals than price to rebalance.

Following dex's link to Wikipedia, I found the following excerpt that corroborates what I tried to say in some long-ago past posts. Note that the underlining below is mine.

When such backward-looking approaches are used to forecast future returns or risks using the traditional mean-variance optimization approach to asset allocation of modern portfolio theory, the strategy is, in fact, predicting future risks and returns based on past history. As there is no guarantee that past relationships will continue in the future, this is one of the "weak links" in traditional asset allocation strategies as derived from MPT.

Excuse me.... I think you are confusing market timing with a Tactical Allocation. :D


Ah! I have heard that term before, but did not know that is what people call what I have been doing all these years. I don't get out much on the Web, and just fumble around to do what I think is right. It's amazing that I survive all these years without knowing what people call me: a [-]DMT[/-] Tactical Asset Allocator.

So, by it being given a formal name, what I do is now legitimate and respectful within mainstream investor cycles. Hey, all I could come up with before was the term "clean market timer", because I could not see why trying to look at a stock or a sector fundamental is a dirty deed.

Here's another excerpt from Wikipedia.

There are three basic types of asset allocation strategies based on investment goals, risk tolerance, time frames and diversification: strategic, tactical, and core-satellite.

Strategic Asset Allocation - the primary goal of a strategic asset allocation is to create an asset mix that will provide the optimal balance between expected risk and return for a long-term investment horizon.

Tactical Asset Allocation - method in which an investor takes a more active approach that tries to position a portfolio into those assets, sectors, or individual stocks that show the most potential for gains.

Core-Satellite Asset Allocation - is more or less a hybrid of both the strategic and tactical allocations mentioned above.

Systematic Asset Allocation is another approach which depends on three assumptions. These are-

The markets provide explicit information about the available returns.
The relative expected returns reflect consensus.
Expected returns provide clues to actual returns.


It seems like nowadays, the buzzword Asset Allocation will give legitimacy and respect to anything anyone wants to do. It's great!

But I will let this subject rest. As I said before, who the hell really cares what something is called. It is just semantics, but I was curious. There are more than one way to make money (and many more to lose it). I believe the most important thing that everyone needs is diversification.

Happy New Year. Cheers!
 
What happened to the high gas price discussion :confused:

Oh well. I'm off to the RV forums where the gas prices have everyone talking about "The Death of RVing" :nonono:
 
This sounds like another Goldman Sachs oil bubble being talked up. They bid it up to $149 a barrel last time, before they pulled the short lever. I think they will go for $199 a barrel this time. Just a guess.
 
Looks like I might have an opportunity to sell some oil-related positions and buy a new V8-powered tow vehicle on the cheap in the next couple of years...
 
According to this site
http://autos.msn.com/everyday/gasstations.aspx
folks in Hana HI are already paying $4.59 per gallon.
To be fair, that's like making Schenectady drivers go to Ballston Spa for their gas. On the "back" roads. I'd sure hate to be driving to Hana on the road behind the gas truck, too.

Costco is consistently rumored to be Hawaii's largest gas seller, both by volume and revenue. They even undercut the military bases, and more telling, I've seen them sacrifice parking-lot space to put in additional gas pumps. So $3-$3.50 seems to be a trading range.

Looks like I might have an opportunity to sell some oil-related positions and buy a new V8-powered tow vehicle on the cheap in the next couple of years...
You could buy a cheap used Prius now and sell it for a tidy profit when you're ready to "trade up" to the V8!
 
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