supporting / subsidizing aging parents

[bssc]

Your In-Laws sound like they have everything under control. In my experience, what messed up my MIL, like Tony Romo holding the ball, was the first time she went into the hospital, she didn't have any supplemental insurance to pay what Medicare didn't. That left her with about 4000 debt.

She got Blue Cross/Blue Shield's plan and when she passed away, all her medical bills were taken care of so I would recommend that. Otherwise, we never had to help her out financially.

 

[2B]

For now, I think we will try to keep the conversations going, and also check in on whether they've got powers of attorney, etc., especially given my father-in-law's shaky health. We recently got our documents in order, which was a nice way to start that conversation, and they were open to suggestions about what they needed to have. Haven't followed up to see that it all got done, though...

Where people screw up (IMHO) with their POA is in naming only one primary (usually their spouse) and one alternate (usually a close by child). That means that when the fan and excrement meet for "Dad," "Mom" is trying to suddenly deal with everything and she is usually not much better off than "Dad" both mentally and physically. She may actually be worse but they had learned how to cover for eachother for years. The alternate POA has to not only get "Dad's" documentation but also "Mom's." (or visa versa) I can assure you that neither of them want to have their "independence" taken away by their snot-nosed kid. "Mom" also doesn't want to admit "Dad" can't be the decision maker he was for the last 58 years.

I would recommend talking with whoever does the paperwork for the in-laws POA about having the primary being one of the children. Since elder care can go on forever or even longer, I would recommend multiple backups and a provision for the ability to assign the POA to or share certain aspects with another person on the list.

My basis for the above comments is dealing with my DW's parents. Everything is a chore. She (we) do not get a break. My wife's sister can't officially do anything. She and her husband do, however, have lots of advice for what my wife can do and how she can do it. My SIL, of course, never has to execute the suggestions but she is very capable of criticizing what does get done. It would be so nice to be able to issue a notarized letter authorizing SIL to take over for the next year. DW has had a 2 year enlistment so far and I'm convinced her parents will live forever (or at least they've seemed to have already lived that long).

For "younger" couples, I don't see the need for a ladder of POA's. A younger spouse may have to deal with a debilitating disease or injury but is probably going to be in a position to deal with it. I do think that when people get into their early 60's the reality of a mutual incapacity should be higher up on the concern list.

 

[Nords]

I was in the Corps. during the Korean War, so I am seriously old

It's only "old" if you act your age!

 

[WM]

You asked some questions that were of a concern to you, and I
apologize for not being sensitive to that.

Thanks, but there's no need to apologize. I can see why my initial post may have seemed a little ridiculous, especially given other people's generally positive experiences with their parents. At 32, I'm still young enough to be foolish, right?

What this discussion made me realize is that although DH has a lot of anxiety about his parents and their finances, his worries are based a lot more on past history than current reality.

Regarding the POA question, I did confirm with my mother-in-law yesterday that all their documents are taken care of, which was great. It seemed nosy to ask who they put down, so I didn't, but maybe I will next time. I doubt that we have much chance of influencing that at this point, but suggesting additional backup people probably can't hurt.

The supplemental insurance point is also a good one, especially given my father-in-law's health. When they have to negotiate the switch to medicare for him it's likely to be a bit overwhelming given the number of doctors he sees. But he is also in the hospital with some regularity so the supplemental will definitely be important.

 

[Jarhead*]

It's only "old" if you act your age!

 

[Jay_Gatsby]

Thanks, but there's no need to apologize. I can see why my initial post may have seemed a little ridiculous, especially given other people's generally positive experiences with their parents. At 32, I'm still young enough to be foolish, right?

Good of you to acknowledge your post being a bit callous, but I'm not sure that it would be in the case of aging parents who are frivolous with their money (which would include letting do-nothing children live off them). Then again, if you were brought up in such a household, it's not likely you would learn how to LBYM. That said, people (including parents) don't often learn a financial lesson until they're forced to by circumstances.

In the case of spendthrift parents (a category into which many Baby Boomers fit), living on Social Security, Medicare and small savings will be a dramatic wake-up call. While it's hard to see your parents in such a situation, it's probably not a bad thing for them to experience the initial pain and go through the necessary adjustment. Likewise, in the case of well-meaning parents, supporting deadbeat children (and their offspring) is something that shouldn't be tolerated by LBYM children who are in a position to help their aging parents.

If LBYM children provide financial help to either of the foregoing types of aging parents, they would be providing the same sort of "economic outpatient care" that the authors of the Millionaire Next Door consider to be problematic. This is not to say that paying the occasional medical bill, utility bill or mortgage installment would be inappropriate, but rather that LBYM children shouldn't continue to enable behavior that makes little financial sense.

FINAL CAVEAT: Each person's family situation is different, but if providing financial support doesn't feel right, it probably isn't.

 

[WM]

Well, I agree generally that "economic outpatient care" is problematic, regardless of who it's going to, but in the case of parents, it seems like it would be awfully hard to draw a line. At that point, unlike with problematic adult children, it's pretty late for them to be getting new jobs or getting financially educated enough to be able to make up for a lack of savings. Tough to save themselves, in other words, even if they made a real effort at it.

In our case, DH watched some bad financial habits growing up and has always kind of assumed that he'd be responsible for helping his parents at some point. It's true that we might not be willing to take that on if they were outrageous spendthrifts, but since they live modestly, even if not always LBYM, we wouldn't feel good about walking away.

I guess when I started this thread, I was expecting that with all the number crunching that goes on around here, there would be plenty of other people who were providing assistance to their parents on a regular basis and could give an idea how much that plays into annual expenses. Something to be planned for, along with college for the kids. I'm kind of surprised that that doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[flipstress]

WM,
I am Asian and where I grew up, it's tradition to support parents. I set aside a monthly allowance and remit every 6 months to my 83-year-old mother and my 57-year-old brother, just because it's easier that way for me. It helps me and them know what the expected cash flow is. I am not retired so their allowance just comes out of my paychecks.

In the back of my mind, I think of what business I can set up to help them out more--something with a sense of ownership for my older brother so that it's not just a dole-out or a pension. I just give up too quickly--I don't think too deeply. Maybe a mini-import business, but it's daunting and much easier to write the checks out.

I don't know if you could set aside a monthly amount and designate it for your parents or in-laws so that when they do need help, you have something accumulated. It could be part of your emergency funds, too.

I've read posts indicating there are quite a few people on this board who help out their parents and even other family members, maybe not with a set budget line-item in all cases but with considerable gifts and on an as-needed basis.

 

[Nords]

I guess when I started this thread, I was expecting that with all the number crunching that goes on around here, there would be plenty of other people who were providing assistance to their parents on a regular basis and could give an idea how much that plays into annual expenses. Something to be planned for, along with college for the kids. I'm kind of surprised that that doesn't seem to be the case.

This board maintains some perennial reciprocated diatribes debates:
- active management vs index funds
- keep or pay off the mortgage
- pay for college or let 'em suffer put their own skin in the game
- the precise SWR to six significant figures
- build a safe financial cushion or suffer from paralysis by analysis
- it's later than you think, what are you saving it for?
- taking Social Security now or later or even later
- whether or not to convert to a Roth IRA
- asset allocation and its volatility risks or other dangers
- financial advisors
- annuities
- tastes great, less filling.

Another debate is whether to help people who may not have hit rock bottom yet actually be ready to change, and who should be motivated enough to seek help without us having to pester them. Whether it's a co-worker, a friend, an in-law, or a close member of the family, the sentiment seems to be that unsolicited advice & unsolicited help is doomed to failure.

We watch our parents-in-law live such a frugal life that Hetty Greene would be envious of their parsimony. But every time we offer to help out or suggest that we spend money for their sake, we not only get an immediate polite dismissal-- we're given the distinct impression that we silly kids are blissfully ignorant wastrels who'll bankrupt their only granddaughter and doom her to a life of poverty.

I'm not saying that there's a pat answer for every situation, or a unique solution yielding from a coldly rational appraisal and logical analysis. But if it makes people sleep better at night knowing they tried, then that's what they should do. So spouse & I look at each other, shrug our shoulders, and say "Eh, we tried." Of course our daughter's relative poverty is her problem!

"Build a man a fire and he'll be warm until the wood runs out, but teach a man to gather wood & build a fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."

A more cynical variant on that is "Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life"...

 

[2B]

A more cynical variant on that is "Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life"...

Cynical. It seems to make the most sense.

My parents were constantly broke and in debt. My father retired on a post office pension. I worried how they would do. My mother died. About 12 years later my father died with a paid off condo and about $150,000 in investments. Where do I think the problem was?

You can't save the world or even change your relatives when it comes to spending. If you support their living above their means you've become an enabeler. Then if you ever cut your contributions, you are the heartless scum depriving them.

I've always taken the position that for elderly relatives that won't control their spending you should let them max out their credit cards and deplete every asset they have. Let them live with their new reality for awhile -- maybe 20 years -- and then look at giving them some edibles for special occasions.

Don't give a drunk a drink and don't give a wasteful spender money.

 

[honobob]

I guess when I started this thread, I was expecting that with all the number crunching that goes on around here, there would be plenty of other people who were providing assistance to their parents on a regular basis and could give an idea how much that plays into annual expenses.

WM

I'm my fathers only child and one of 8 for my mother. As the second oldest and the oldest son I always saw myself as the caretaker.

In 94 I made a deal with my mother. She sold her $50K house in the midwest and used a portion of that as a downpayment on a $110K Vegas house and I make all the payments, taxes and insurance. She used the rest of her house money to fill the place with crap.

I'm out about 13K a year but the property has appreciated 9% a year. She gets 12K ss a year (you can live on $12K a year with no housing expense) and I would pay her when she helped me with my dad. She lives in a much nicer home and her expenses are alot less than if she had stayed in the midwest. I could do more but she seems to have plenty as I'll be able to fill up a couple of dollar stores when she's gone. It did annoy me when she lent a couple thousand to a sister that burned her. Not so annoyed when I see the $25 checks to grandkids. I assume their parents are at least reciprocating at holidays.

Dad was a modest saver and he was on death's door when I got him in 1998. I figured I could add at least 6 more months to his life and actually got him out of a nursing home and living with me for 8 years before he passed. Although he had funds for his daycare, etc. he actually "cost" me more because he had no plan other than to die if no one stepped in. He had remarried and would not make estate plans which allowed his wife's vultures children to jump in and cause the expenditure of tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees. She passed in 2001 and the hijacked probate is still open. (Get a living Trust)

My point here is that if you are going to be the "one" you have every right to be proactive and insist on a plan. Otherwise run away! I was amazed by the number (majority) of people who told me to stick him in a home and not be responsible. I don't understand that thinking for parents but don't blame anyone either. All other family are on their own!

 

[Nords]

I was amazed by the number (majority) of people who told me to stick him in a home and not be responsible.

Well, maybe that depends on the relationship those people had with their own parents when they were growing up. It looks like it was much better for you and your father.

There's a good reason that many nursing-home residents don't get visits from their kids... and I'm pretty sure the employees of those homes would agree with the "kids".

Yeah, yeah, "Honor thy father and thy mother". But respect is also a two-way street.

 

[lazygood4nothinbum]

Well, maybe that depends on the relationship those people had with their own parents when they were growing up....But respect is also a two-way street.

i totally lucked out. i had the best mom in all the universes so of course i would have done anything for her.

a friend of mine had a nasty mom. and during alzheimer's she got even worse. my friend took such good care of her mother, even while siblings did nothing. her mom would scream & curse at her while she fed her mom, bathed & changed her. i was so happy for my friend when her mother died. it just beat the crap out of her and she still suffers depression which i hope she will be able to overcome.

i have the utmost respect for my friend. i remember how difficult i was during adolescence but my parents never gave up on me.

i think there's a lot to be said for taking care of your own. wherever you look, you will find those who help each other living better than those who don't.

 

[2B]

There seems to be a difference of opinion on what people should do with their parents. I'll say what I want my kids to do for me should I be unfortunate enough to come down with Alzhemiers' or anything else where I need continuous care.

I want them to have a life. I want them to put me in a nice, safe place when I need it whether I fight them or not because by then my mind will be gone. I want them to come visit me but not so frequently they can't still go and do.

I don't want them to spend many years trying to keep me from hurting myself and dealing with my outbursts. I never want one of my own children to change my diaper.

I hope to have enough residual savings to put me in a nice place. If I don't, I want them to go for Medicaide unless they're so rich they won't notice the hit.

I'd be interested in knowing if anyone really wants their kids to devote 10 years of their life to round the clock care of them.

 

[kaudrey]

Hi 2B,

My parents will both be 70 this year. They have told my sister and I that if/when they can't take care of themselves, they want us to find them somewhere nice and visit once in a while, just like you said. There is longevity in our family, so hopefully they'll have many more years before that is an issue.

But, they also know that my sister and I would do anything for them - which is probably why they firmly insist that we don't. We would also help them financially if they needed it, but they retired early at 57 and there's pretty much no chance they will run out of money. After 12 years of retirement, my dad said that they have more money than when they pulled the plug.

Karen

 

[WM]

flipstress and honobob, thanks for the good ideas.

2B, my mom agrees with you exactly. After seeing her grandmother and now her mother go through years of dementia (non-alzheimer's, so thankfully no hostile behavior) she figures that's where she's eventually headed. My parents are great savers but if there's not much left she says it won't matter where she's at since she won't know the difference or recognize any of us anyway - go for medicaid. I see what she's saying, but like kaudrey, my sister and I would do anything we could for my parents so I doubt that we will follow those instructions. Even if she doesn't know what's going on, we will.

 

[2B]

The replies to my post are what I've gotten from everyone that is in control of their senses. No one wants their children to lose years off their life to take care of them. Of course, aged people lose control of their reasoning and "they are fine" even though you know they are not. My FIL (with Alzheimers') is ready to move home (up for sale) and take his wife (broken hip/confined to wheel chair or bed/ diapers) with him. They're fine in his mind.

 

[Nords]

I never want one of my own children to change my diaper.

Kids go through thousands of diapers before they successfully graduate from toilet training. I didn't help out with the breastfeeding so I picked up more than my share of those diapers.

With that perspective, we tell our kid that it's more than fair to expect her to change a few of ours.

I think she's going to leave home as soon as she graduates from high school-- and never come back!

 

[flipstress]

I have a friend who's in IT like me, but he started off with a psychology major and decided he didn't want to go for a master's or PH.D. in that field.

Anyway, one of his earlier jobs was at a nursing home, and he considered that the most meaningful job he had--helping those elderly folks, specifically changing their diapers! He was serious, too.

He was also a Headstart teacher in another job, and then he said he got tired of being always poor and broke and took computer classes to become a programmer.

 

[lazygood4nothinbum]

while mom lived impeccably clean in life, during alzheimer's she became afraid of water. we were pretty creative in keeping her clean. on weekends i'd take her swimming and help her shower with her bathing suit on & wash her hair. during the week we had help in the house who would lead her to the shower. but she became clever and she'd wet the shower, wet the towel, but not get wet herself.

at one point she developed a problem under her breasts and fortunately my sister-in-law helped with that because if i had to put cream on my mother's breasts i wouldn't have been able to have sex again for about another five lifetimes. also fortunate for us mom did not become incontinent until 2 years before death. by then we had her safe in an alzheimer's unit.

i don't see this as a matter of giving up part of your life for your parents. i see this as a gain, as part of life.

while we were going through alzheimer's, a family south of us was undergoing the same thing only their solution was to leave their mother in her wheelchair at the dogtrack where i couldn't even imagine abandoning a dog.

just because we didn't even rely only on mom's paid-up insurance right away but used hers & our own resources to maintain mom's standard of good living for as long as we could, just because we didn't rely on the state from the word go, who am i to say anyone should do whatever they can to at least try to maintain their own for as long as they can. i realize not everyone can do this & i have no problem paying my taxes so that our community will come to their mother's rescue.

 

[brewer12345]

I feel an obligation to help parents and in-laws in need, so I would be writing checks, etc. if it came to that. As it is, I already manage portfolios for MIL, FIL, my parents, and I am the executor of my parents' will (although they have been forewarned I will not pull the plug). I'm not worried about MIL, since she has a pension from the state taht is easily worth $1.5MM, plus a debt free home and a low 6 figure IRA. My parents should also be fine, snce they have oodles of assets. The big question mark is FIL, who has never been a big earner. He is pretty frugal, has a younger wife who works, and they stand to get a significant inheritance from her parents, so I suspect he will be OK.

 

[Martha]

I have a friend who's in IT like me, but he started off with a psychology major and decided he didn't want to go for a master's or PH.D. in that field.

Anyway, one of his earlier jobs was at a nursing home, and he considered that the most meaningful job he had--helping those elderly folks, specifically changing their diapers! He was serious, too.

He was also a Headstart teacher in another job, and then he said he got tired of being always poor and broke and took computer classes to become a programmer.

My niece recently got a job in a nursing home/assisted living facility and she feels like your friend feels. She enjoys helping care for the old people, including cleaning up and changing them. There sure is a need for people working in that field and will be for years to come.

My parents and inlaws are all dead. Wish they were around. I would have loved to have any of them stay with us and be cared for by us. When I was a kid my dad had a lot of health problems. His kids helped as needed. I mentioned once learning how to drive at 14 so I could drive my father and do the family errands. We had a number of harrowing drives down country roads to the hospital to get his heart shocked back into rhythm.

I have a brother who is disabled with autism. He lived with Greg and I for a while years ago. It did not work out well at all and was very stressful. He now lives independently, in subsidized housing. One of my former partners has a son who is disabled with schizophrenia. Very very difficult. He has had his own harrowing car trips to rescue his son from one jam or another. With state hospitals out of the picture and no good long term care solutions for the mentally ill, the future for his son does not look good.

 

[Brat]

I have a sister with the same problem as your former partner. She drives daily ~150 miles RT to make sure he takes his meds. The impact on her own mental health is huge. She is now in her mid-60s. I don't see how she can keep that up long term.

 

[2B]

I feel an obligation to help parents and in-laws in need, so I would be writing checks, etc. if it came to that. As it is, I already manage portfolios for MIL, FIL, my parents, and I am the executor of my parents' will (although they have been forewarned I will not pull the plug). I'm not worried about MIL, since she has a pension from the state taht is easily worth $1.5MM, plus a debt free home and a low 6 figure IRA. My parents should also be fine, snce they have oodles of assets. The big question mark is FIL, who has never been a big earner. He is pretty frugal, has a younger wife who works, and they stand to get a significant inheritance from her parents, so I suspect he will be OK.

It's not all about money or achieving a feeling of "meaningful" bliss. The reality is that elder care will go 24-7 on you real fast. DW (and a little me since I got to leave to w**k) tried taking care of her father in the early Alzheimers' mode. He was (and still is) fully mobil and thinks he can still drive so watch the keys to anything and keep an sharp ear for the door opening. He wanted to go to his usual places but where he volunteered didn't want him there because of his condition. He really wasn't able to contribute and they didn't have people to watch him although I thought that could have worked out well.

We weren't changing diapers. We were essentially watching the mental equivalent of a 7 year old that thought he could drive. I can't really point to any one thing that made it so stressful but we couldn't ever relax or let down our guard. It was next to impossible to get anything done.

We lasted about six weeks and realized we were going to die long before he was. He's now in assisted living where he can putter aimlessly with 20 or so people taking turns watching him. There's also well over 100 people to listen to his stories. We visit and it's a lot more pleasant.

I'm glad they have the money to afford a decent place. Would DW and I be chipping in if they were broke? I'm pretty sure we would but the quality of the facility might suffer a little. It's a little easier to look at their assets and say they have enough for 10 to 15 years versus I'll be working another 10 to 15 years to support them in a high cost facility. Their place is definitely in the upper quartile as far as the Houston facilities are concerned.

My FIL and MIL are in the same facility so he's happier being able to putter into the skilled nursing area to visit her. In their conditions, they are not real cognizant of what's really happening and remember very little of what they were told minutes earlier. Overall, being together, interacting with others and having a stable routine is probably better for them then being "home cared."