Suze, Dave, Rick, et al.

I like the banter on squack box on CNBC every morning. They have a lot of great guests and I feel connected to the financial community watching them. Still......index fund investing for me.
 
I am a money junkie, so I will watch or listen to any of them. Clark is the best all around. But usually its while I am driving or during a quiet evening in. I don't seek any of them out.

I do think Ric might be the sleeziest (except the insurance guys who will rent radio time on weekends). I seem to recall him suggesting a guy roll money out of his TSP. Ah, so the FA can charge an AUM fee?

I can only take Cramer in limited doses.
 
I am a money junkie, so I will watch or listen to any of them. Clark is the best all around. But usually its while I am driving or during a quiet evening in. I don't seek any of them out.

Clark Howard is non-nonsense for pretty much anyone. Suze wants people to work forever; Dave talks like no one can ever be a master of credit (rather than its slave); and Ric? I've never heard of him but from this thread, maybe it's for the better.

Clark doesn't seem to pretend to try to be what he's not: He doesn't say specifically how you should budget, invest, or use debt, but just how to get the best bang for your buck and avoid getting ripped off.
 
I can't stand CNBC for more than 30 seconds.
 
I listened to Dave quite a bit during debt reduction / elimination phase but would not take his investing advice. I never completely follwed his advice as I never stopped my 401k contributions - to give up "free" money via the company match is just plain silly.
 
I can't stand CNBC for more than 30 seconds.

+101

I have a lot better things to do (like cleaning my toilet) than listen to these or any other shills for Wall Street. Bernstein cured me of all that. Listening to CNBC for business news to me is like listening to CNN (or any US mainstream media outlet) for real news.
 
+101

I have a lot better things to do (like cleaning my toilet) than listen to these or any other shills for Wall Street. Bernstein cured me of all that. Listening to CNBC for business news to me is like listening to CNN (or any US mainstream media outlet) for real news.

Yep. I heard CNBC talking about the JP Morgan Chase fine like it was a sudden shakedown for political purposes. But the CEO of the company put $28 billion for litigation and settlements aside when they acquired Lehman, suggesting it was a one-time hit to a transaction which would be profitable long-term. And as it turned out, they paid less than half of that. CNBC was talking as if the Feds were committing armed robbery, even after they came after less than half of what they put away for it!
 
FIRE types are not the main audience of these financial gurus but listening can sometimes be interesting. Of the three I think Suze offers the most constructive help and tackles the most diverse issues, but is the most abrasive of the three. I was surprised by how much of a religious bent Dave's show has, and his repeated "get rid of debt" mantra quickly grows old. Rick's advice is so unconditional as to be reckless IMO. For example, Rick is completely against tIRA to Roth conversion, but so far that has been one of the best financial moves I've ever made.

Here is an interesting, and I think balanced, take on Dave Ramsey by Felix Salmon

The red-blue divide in personal finance | Felix Salmon

Be sure to click through and read the Helaine Olen piece on which he is commenting.
 
I like Bob Brinker. His radio program "Money Talk" is broadcast live 3-6 PM CT on Sundays. He is fiscally very conservative. I think his advice is solid most of the time. He invites his listeners to join the "land of critical mass". He says we have the "best government money can buy".
 
I'm not a big fan of Suze although I sometimes watch her shows on PBS.

I listen to Dave once in a while and wish more people would pay attention to what he has to say. Yes, Dave is not really for the FIRE types as most FIRE types are beyond the need to save and get out of debt. I really liked Dave's Town Hall Meeting back in 2008 (?) - where he discussed how to weather the "economic downturn."

I've read a few of Ric Edelman's books. He has some good ideas but as with anything it has to be considered case by case.

I'm a big fan of Clark Howard. While he covers a variety of topics most of them have a financial slant.

There's a financial planning group in Georgia that host a radio show 9 - 11 AM Eastern Time on Sunday mornings. Check out WSB radio - AM750 for the Wes Moss Money Matters show. It has a rinse and repeat mantra to some extent but there is lot's of good information for FIRE types as well as traditional retirees.
 
Last edited:
I like Bob Brinker. His radio program "Money Talk" is broadcast live 3-6 PM CT on Sundays. He is fiscally very conservative. I think his advice is solid most of the time. He invites his listeners to join the "land of critical mass". He says we have the "best government money can buy".

My late father liked Bob Brinker. He was a bit too market-timey for me, but my dad did pretty well with him, and maybe it was luck or just a good market, but I'm not going to diss him too much because I know Dad did pretty well taking his advice into consideration (never blindly and not going all in/all out, but giving it some thought).
 
Debt is never good for the individual just because it increases personal risk.

So does getting out of bed every morning. Risk isn't necessarily bad, and neither is debt. Not being able to control your debt level is bad.

I have listened to Suze a couple of times, and Dave Ramsey once. Nothing there either to learn or enjoy, IMO.

I got to know Ric Edelman back in the pre-internet bulletin board days, and had a number of conversations with him. He made some sense, and actually introduced me to the concept of indexing, although at the time he was pushing DFA funds. He charges a large fee to put people into index funds, which I guess is better than charging them a large fee then putting them in American Funds or other high cost funds. But I don't personally see why anyone would pay that kind of money to be put into indexes. Plus, he's got the personality of an ex-used car salesman turned politician. I always felt the need to wash my hands after chatting with him. I've never really listened to his show, but occasionally go to Youtube when somebody links something. He makes some sense, then says "pay me to do for you what you could easily do for yourself". Ugh.
 
Here is an interesting, and I think balanced, take on Dave Ramsey by Felix Salmon

The red-blue divide in personal finance | Felix Salmon

Be sure to click through and read the Helaine Olen piece on which he is commenting.

I read both articles. While I agree with Olen in some respects I think that Salmon has the better take on it.

This reminds me of the great divide that existed in social work graduate school in the mid-90s when I was earning my MSW degree. A large contingent (who mostly had the upper hand at the time) felt that social work should take a macro perspective and should focus on systemic issues. So, they would have felt the proper focus was as Olen discussed regarding the overall declines in real income in recent years coupled with rising costs. So, they would have been more inclined to want to do work at a more macro level to help to reduce income inequality. They might have thought community organization work was worthwhile. But, they fairly clearly discouraged working with actual individuals on their individual problems. They discouraged the idea of, say, working as a therapist with individuals because they felt that working with individuals would avoid dealing with the real issues, which they felt were the macro ones. Time spent helping individual people was almost time wasted from this standpoint. So, a Dave Ramsay who focuses on the individual person taking responsibility to deal with his/her own problems it totally anathema to this point of view. It seems that Olen takes this more macro perspective.

On the other hand, the other (smaller) group in the social work school I attended certainly agreed with the first group on the more macro issues. They shared the overall social work perspective. But, they believed in working with individuals from a social work perspective. To be clear, they didn't deny the larger societal issues. They would grant Olen her point about those. But, they would recognize that acknowledging those issues and trying to chance society in response doesn't necessarily help the individual person right now. They were more focused on trying to help the individual person. (Yes, I'm a firm member of this group).

It seems that Salmon largely takes this perspective. I don't think he denies Olen's point. However, her point doesn't do anything to help people get out of debt. If your income has gone down and her expenses have gone up, there may be larger societal forces at play. However, the individual person needs to know how to stay out of debt. One thing I appreciate from Dave is that he often helps people to see things a different way to try to solve a problem. I suspect that while I think Olen is correct from a macro point of view, Dave's way is far more likely to help the individual person struggling financially.
 
I read both articles. . . . I suspect that while I think Olen is correct from a macro point of view, Dave's way is far more likely to help the individual person struggling financially.

I faced this same dilemma when I was in law school eons ago.

At Yale, we had a very strong clinical law program. Among other things, they represented tenants in eviction proceedings. Very intelligent, very inventive and very dedicated law students would appear in court and raise innumerable legal obstacles to the eviction proceeding, with the goal of keeping the tenant in the apartment as long as possible. Failing that, they tried to squeeze a "cash for keys" deal, so that the tenants could afford to move somewhere else. The people involved always justified their actions by saying that they were fighting the slumlords.

I hypothesized that while the students participating in the clinic felt good about what they were doing, they were not actually doing good. So, along with two of my classmates, I researched the state of the rental market in one of the worst slums of New Haven to test my hypothesis. We determined who owned every property in the area and how many other properties they owned, we learned how much each property was worth and the market forces affecting the rents. We interviewed many of the owners and learned their cash on cash returns for the properties. We researched the court eviction proceedings to determine how much the various delaying tactics employed by the law school students were costing the landlords in excess of a typical eviction.

At the end of our research, we learned the following -- 1) that most of the properties in the area were triple deckers, owned by the family that lived on the first floor, with the upper two floors rented out; 2) that the owners generally owned only that one building (i.e. - there actually weren't many slumlords); 2) that the market rents were essentially dictated by the Section 8 subsidies available; 3) that, taking into account mortgage payments, taxes, repairs, and allowance for vacancies, the return to the owners was minimal; 4) that the costs associated with trying to evict a tenant represented by the Yale clinical program would often result in negative returns to owners and that they would often respond by selling the property to one of the small but growing number of real slumlords who could better afford the overhead associated with legal proceedings.

The conclusion of our research was that the clinical program was creating the very monsters they were purporting to slay, and that their efforts would be better directed toward obtaining more government support for affordable housing in the area. We opined that it was unfair to impose the societal burden of housing poor people on a few unfortunate landlords and that all of us should contribute to the solution.

Needless to say, our project was not popular in some quarters. They pointed out that our proposed solution did nothing for those poor people who, absent the efforts of the clinic, would be sleeping in the street that night. And they were right about that.

These issues, just like saving money for retirement, need to be approached from both ends -- individuals need to do what they can, but society as a whole must also address the issues that are beyond the ability of individuals to change.
 
Last edited:
Dave - like
Clark - prefer
Ric - don't know
Suze - the horror, the horror

Pretty much spot on with me also. I did listen to Ric once or twice had no lasting impression.

My favorite is Bob Brinker, who's advice I think is probably most appropriate for forum members. Especially those of you who are also [-]dirty market timers[/-], flexible reblancers.

I don't listen to Kramer every day,more like once a week. But once you realize all the antics are just show business and keep the ratings up. I think the guy does decent (albeit softball) interviews with CEO which I find valuable. Kramer also periodically does some pretty fine educational shows where he discuss individual sectors, or also thinks like fundamental vs technical analysis. If somebody want to start buying individual shares, I think you could do a lot worse than listening to Kramer everyday.
 
Last edited:
Just ignore his comments on investing (expecting a 15% return long-term in a stock mutual fund).....

Yeah, Dave tells people to expect 12% returns and that they can safely withdraw 8% per year in retirement.

Umm, I guess he has never run Firecalc... it's stupid.
 
I haven't had cable for over 2 years. Reading all these comments about Suze, Dave, Ric, etc. makes me think I'm not missing much.

But I do miss Wall Street Week with Louis Rukeyser. We watched that as we first started building our little nest egg in the early 80's. Thoughtful and often funny discussion of the market. :)
 
Yeah, Dave tells people to expect 12% returns and that they can safely withdraw 8% per year in retirement.

Well that explains some of the things I hear at work!

I loved CNBC when they first started. They had a show called Steals and Deals that I watched religiously when I was first married. I learned you could order carpet wholesale from GA and did just that. Had it shipped up north via. Roadway for $27 - dispatched my husband and neighbor to pick it up. I still have the bill of lading - instead of the first dollar I ever earned - it symbolized the first dollar I ever saved.

That was the problem for me and will eventually become a problem for all of the followers of Dave, Suze, etc- the saving came easy but the investing was difficult to learn because there were so few sources of information. Maybe their mailbags are full of "what do I do now?" letters?
 
Gumby that is easily the most interesting thing I've read all week. Thank you very much for sharing it. Your example reminds me a lot of the Freakonomics guys who wrote a lot about unintended consequences of plans that sounded really good at the time.
 
I'm probably more conservative than Dave. Debt is never good for the individual just because it increases personal risk. The only exception could be for a loan necessary to fund a lucrative profession such as being a doctor although from a purely financial standpoint there's probably more money in being a plumber. A home loan is acceptable if it is well within one's ability to pay for it. The home loan still has risk because I once lost a job and faced the possibility of personal bankruptcy because home prices tanked just as I lost the job.

I think Dave's 3 to 6 month emergency fund is too optimistic. I think the typical person needs a 12 month cushion as a minimum.

Evidently more true than most may realize. A Doctor (specialist) I see related to me that he's calculated he'd be better off had he gone from high school to become a California prison guard, than to medical school and practice due to the current business model for doctors. He related that his share of overhead for a multi-doc practice is mid-$100,000s/yr and that he has to see 20 patients a day just to break even. Of course, that doesn't account for whatever med school debt he's paying. Makes me feel privileged to get more than 15 mins a visit.
 
In order of admiration:

Bob Brinker I spent many a weekend afternoon listening to him on "Sunday drives" back in the 90's. He's pretty much the reason I'm primarily an index investor these days. He seems a little off his game the last few years, but I still like to hear his economic insights.

Dave Ramsey I agree his investment advice is weak, but people don't really listen to him for that. He's really good at getting people to think hard about their lifestyles based on debt and concrete ways to fix it. For many folks easy credit is very bad trap that's hard for them to escape.

Ric Edelman I've always been leery of him after hearing him talk about using second mortgage money for investing. He did stop talking about this stuff after the mortgage meltdown...

Suzy Orman The few times I've heard her she kept talking about improving your FICO score. Seemed like the wrong thing to focus on for people having debt problems. Maybe she's the anti-Dave Ramsey?
 
I don't listen to Kramer every day,more like once a week. But once you realize all the antics are just show business and keep the ratings up. I think the guy does decent (albeit softball) interviews with CEO which I find valuable. Kramer also periodically does some pretty fine educational shows where he discuss individual sectors, or also thinks like fundamental vs technical analysis. If somebody want to start buying individual shares, I think you could do a lot worse than listening to Kramer everyday.

OMG, you really think this? Cramer is about the worst thing you could watch if you want to pick stocks. Worse than clueless. Like much of the media, when he starts babbling about a sector I know very well it is truly apalling to see how uninformed he is, yet the minions who watch this crap eat it up and make wildly stupid trades. Many a Cramer-induced wave of buying or selling by the clueless has afforded me wonderful opportunities to take the other side of the trade.
 
I think Dave's 3 to 6 month emergency fund is too optimistic. I think the typical person needs a 12 month cushion as a minimum.

I tend to agree, at least in this economy and this job market. I think 3-6 months was adequate (say) 15+ years ago but many, many people are unemployed longer than 3-6 months these days. In the depths of the mini-depression five years ago, I was paranoid enough to stockpile about 4 years of expenses into savings (and investing the rest). The funny thing is that by the time I started getting less paranoid, I was laid off -- and that stash of cash (combined with DW's new ministry job) made it really easy to sleep at night even with the loss of my income.
 
I faced this same dilemma when I was in law school eons ago.

At Yale, we had a very strong clinical law program. Among other things, they represented tenants in eviction proceedings. Very intelligent, very inventive and very dedicated law students would appear in court and raise innumerable legal obstacles to the eviction proceeding, with the goal of keeping the tenant in the apartment as long as possible ....

I hypothesized that while the students participating in the clinic felt good about what they were doing, they were not actually doing good. So, along with two of my classmates, I researched the state of the rental market in one of the worst slums of New Haven to test my hypothesis. ...

... the costs associated with trying to evict a tenant represented by the Yale clinical program would often result in negative returns to owners and that they would often respond by selling the property to one of the small but growing number of real slumlords who could better afford the overhead associated with legal proceedings.

The conclusion of our research was that the clinical program was creating the very monsters they were purporting to slay, ...

That's a great example of the unintended consequences, and unfortunately probably pretty common.

Needless to say, our project was not popular in some quarters.

Now that is sad. Confronted with facts, these obviously intelligent people just had to stick to their dogma. That's the opposite of 'education', IMO.


-ERD50
 
Back
Top Bottom