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Old 01-22-2013, 08:44 AM   #261
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I was about to create a Suze Orman thread when I saw this one! It was going to have the same tone too.

I am constantly amazed that she wants people to work until age 67. Yes you'll have more money if you do that, but that's not what life is about for many people.

Sometime within the last few days, she had a woman on who was 56, and her husband was 57, and it was their plan to retire when he turned 65. They already had $750,000 (or so) in retirement accounts, NO debt at all including a paid for house (worth ~$190,000 if I remember correctly), and they were putting $1500 away each month into those retirement accounts.

$1500 a month is $18,000 a year. With a paltry 6% return over the next 8 years, their portfolio would be worth $1.3 million dollars. At 4% it would be $1.17. Let's go with that.

He's 65. They take 4% of 1,170,000 and that's $46,800 which is not a ton of money, but they have NO debt at all. AND they get to add Social Security if they want. Assuming he is making $50,000 a year now (which isn't that much), if he retires at age 65, he'll get $21,696 and then a year later if his wife never worked at all, they can get half again that for another $10,848.

So, if he retires at 65 like they want, he'll have $68,496 and then a year later when she turns 65, they can have $79,344, and that was assuming a pretty low income for him (and a low rate of return the next 8 years), so it will likely be more.

Good Grief...if you can't make it on that with a paid for house and no debt, then you've got real problems. She wants him to work 2 more years to age 67. I don't understand this mentality at all. She never accounts for people who want to retire earlier than 67. Why should we let the government decide when we retire? Just because max SS is at age 67 doesn't mean we can't get our houses in order to retire earlier. To me those people had done enough, and if the stock market does well the next 4-5 years, they could potentially retire even earlier.
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Old 01-22-2013, 08:52 AM   #262
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Orman's ego is as big as her teeth are white. She'll never admit being wrong, and therefore preaches this working-to-67-or-later thing without being confused by the facts. That's her schtick and she's sticking to it, individual facts and circumstances be damned.
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Old 01-22-2013, 09:47 AM   #263
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I'm not a Suze fan either, but working to 67 with an investing philosophy like hers makes a lot of sense. This old article shows her money is in real estate, cash & very safe bonds with only 4% in stock. With interest rates & yields down dramatically since the article, I suspect Suze is even more conservative than ever.

IOW her retirement guidance fits with her investing philosophy.

And it appears her ego loves the attention, fame & fortune her "schtick" brings her - why quit, ever?

If I was planning on investing that conservatively before and after retirement, I'd probably have worked until I dropped.

http://articles.marketwatch.com/2007...s-stock-market
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Old 01-22-2013, 09:59 AM   #264
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That's weird as she constantly says you should be 10% in international stocks, implying that other investments are in stocks too (the part that isn't in individual bonds which she also likes).

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I'm not a Suze fan either, but working to 67 with an investing philosophy like hers makes a lot of sense. This old article shows her money is in real estate, cash & very safe bonds with only 4% in stock. With interest rates & yields down dramatically since the article, I suspect Suze is even more conservative than ever.

IOW her retirement guidance fits with her investing philosophy.

And it appears her ego loves the attention, fame & fortune her "schtick" brings her - why quit, ever?

If I was planning on investing that conservatively before and after retirement, I'd probably have worked until I dropped.

Outing Suze Orman's portfolio - MarketWatch
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Old 01-22-2013, 10:03 AM   #265
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After reading this thread, I see the comment made several times that she is giving her advice to people who are beginners and not as established as many of us. I might agree that her advice is FOR those people, but she dishes the same advice out to just about everyone. There are people who call her show that have twice the assets now in their late 50s than I will have then, and she tells them they need to work until 67. No way am I working that long.
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Old 01-22-2013, 10:05 AM   #266
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After reading this thread, I see the comment made several times that she is giving her advice to people who are beginners and not as established as many of us. I might agree that her advice is FOR those people, but she dishes the same advice out to just about everyone. There are people who call her show that have twice the assets now in their late 50s than I will have then, and she tells them they need to work until 67. No way am I working that long.
If you were invested in CDs and munis only, you might have to work to 67.

This forum and generous pensions notwithstanding, few people can retire early (by saving & investing in a reasonable stock/bond portfolio), fewer still can retire at all with just CDs and munis or the like (you'd have to live WAY below your means for a long time)...
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Old 01-22-2013, 10:42 AM   #267
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If you were invested in CDs and munis only, you might have to work to 67.

This forum notwithstanding, few people can retire early (by saving & investing in a reasonably stock/bond portfolio), fewer still can retire at all with just CDs and munis or the like (you'd have to live WAY below your means for a long time)...
Yeah, I see that some of you have said that, but she always talks about having 10% international stocks (as opposed to Ramey's 25%). Does that mean 10% of 4% in stocks, or 10% of all investments?
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Old 01-22-2013, 12:17 PM   #268
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Eh, I watch Cops on occasion. Doesn't mean I am about to start doing meth and run afoul of the law.
But hey - its always an option if the wrong Firecalc line gets the better of us........
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Old 01-23-2013, 08:59 AM   #269
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The lunacy never ends does it.

Saturday night in either the "Can I Afford It" or the "How Am I Doing" segment a married woman age 61 with $113k liquid, $625k investments and $527k in retirement was berated to either not pay off her son's $40k student loan debt if it was the "Can I Afford It" segment or to not retire if it was the "How Am I Doing" segment. Sorry I'm forgetting which it was, I think it was the "Can I Afford It" segment. I wrote the numbers down as I was watching it so I know those are correct. I think her numbers are great to either pay off the loan or retire.

Also it was another rant about not owning bond funds but rather buy bonds to another caller. No mention about what type of bonds or the high cost to diversify a bond portfolio of actual bonds or how expensive they are if you were to buy them in the secondary market. Nope, just avoid those nasty funds and get the actual bonds.

I'm surprised she didn't suggest looking at the sun.
I watched this episode last night, and I thought what she said makes sense. Keep in mind that all the callers have to fill out a complete financial profile in order to get on the show, so there are details that we aren't aware of. That said, a couple in their 60s with $1-2MM in net worth and high monthly expenses (income = 8k/mo, expenses = $8k incl. 2 car leases) needs to be conservative with their finances IMO. Their son can work and pay off his student loans, but they are getting close to retirement and their ability to generate future income is limited. If they don't need the $40k, they can always pass it to their child upon death, but if they need the money they will not be able to get it back if they use it to pay off their son's student loans.

As far as the bond funds, she said that she's not crazy about bonds right now because bond prices are high due to low interest rates. She also said to look at the expense ratio on bond funds, which doesn't seem like horrible advice to me.

While I don't agree with Suze about everything, I don't think she's as bad as some people make her out to be either.
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Old 01-23-2013, 09:48 AM   #270
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Actually she is horrible with investment advice. She said she doesn't like bond funds but like individual bonds. If yields are low, buying individual bonds won't give you more yield without taking additional risk. Moreover, how the hell will most of her viewers know how to pick individual bonds and the commission or spread to buy a tiny sliver of bond will eliminate a chunk of the yield.

She should stick with her savings advice and keep her mouth shut about investing.
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Old 01-23-2013, 10:13 AM   #271
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Probably giving her too much credit, but another thought as to why Suze may seem to encourage everyone to work until age 67. She knows most people won't realistically be able to retire early, and most of her viewing audience would rather hear/think that it's normal to work until 67 or longer. Most people DON'T want to hear "others" can retire early - they want to think they're doing as well as everyone else (who's not doing well). A few of my former co-workers were actually mad that I was able to retire early, one won't speak to me in public he's so angry/presumably jealous. FWIW...
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Old 01-23-2013, 10:22 AM   #272
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Probably giving her too much credit, but another thought as to why Suze may seem to encourage everyone to work until age 67. She knows most people won't realistically be able to retire early, and most of her viewing audience would rather hear/think that it's normal to work until 67 or longer. Most people DON'T want to hear "others" can retire early - they want to think they're doing as well as everyone else (who's not doing well). A few of my former co-workers were actually mad that I was able to retire early, one won't speak to me in public he's so angry/presumably jealous. FWIW...
I might agree with you on her 'sensitivity" toward people who cannot afford to retire early except I have heard her say many times "You can't afford that! I can....but you cannot!"

She is just icky.
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Old 01-23-2013, 10:51 AM   #273
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She should stick with her savings advice and keep her mouth shut about investing.
I agree that her investing advice leaves much to be desired, but then so does Dave Ramsey. I think part of the reason is that they have to appeal to the lowest common denominator within their audience, so they have to make their advice overly simplistic, and they probably cannot dole out specific investment advice due to liability issues.

Could any of us do better if we had to broadcast a weekly TV/radio personal finance show? I cannot begin to imagine the amount of criticism I would receive with the advice that I would provide, so I cannot be too harsh on public PF personalities either. At the very least, they're getting people to think about their finances, and driving a little bit of traffic to sites like this one.
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Old 01-23-2013, 12:23 PM   #274
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It may not be a credit to my character, but I kinda enjoy seeing her knock people down a few pegs when they are being stupid. "I reeeeely deserve a new lexus!!!!" When they are drowning in consumer debt.

Yeah, I'm mean...
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Old 01-23-2013, 12:31 PM   #275
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It may not be a credit to my character, but I kinda enjoy seeing her knock people down a few pegs when they are being stupid. "I reeeeely deserve a new lexus!!!!" When they are drowning in consumer debt.

Yeah, I'm mean...
I think that sort of validation is a perfectly reasonable motivation for watching her show.

After all, some of us (including me) make fun of the particular design decisions on HGTV that we don't like, and validate our own decorating choices ("red walls again? Oh puleeeze!" "That chair is so ugly!" ). So, why not do the same with personal finance choices?
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Old 01-23-2013, 03:01 PM   #276
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It may not be a credit to my character, but I kinda enjoy seeing her knock people down a few pegs when they are being stupid. "I reeeeely deserve a new lexus!!!!" When they are drowning in consumer debt.

Yeah, I'm mean...
And Dave Ramsey can have whatever is left of them when she's finished with them...
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Old 01-24-2013, 06:39 AM   #277
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Probably giving her too much credit, but another thought as to why Suze may seem to encourage everyone to work until age 67. She knows most people won't realistically be able to retire early, and most of her viewing audience would rather hear/think that it's normal to work until 67 or longer. Most people DON'T want to hear "others" can retire early - they want to think they're doing as well as everyone else (who's not doing well). A few of my former co-workers were actually mad that I was able to retire early, one won't speak to me in public he's so angry/presumably jealous. FWIW...
That's a good point, and you may be right about that. I don't have a problem hearing that some people can retire earlier than me; in fact I love it when I hear that. I can see though that maybe most people wouldn't feel that way. Still seems though that if someone has $2 million with no debt at age 62 and wants to retire that she ought to be able to say, "Yeah, you've done enough." She could even tell them to delay Social Security if that's a big deal for her.
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Old 01-24-2013, 06:41 AM   #278
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I agree that her investing advice leaves much to be desired, but then so does Dave Ramsey. I think part of the reason is that they have to appeal to the lowest common denominator within their audience, so they have to make their advice overly simplistic, and they probably cannot dole out specific investment advice due to liability issues.

Could any of us do better if we had to broadcast a weekly TV/radio personal finance show? I cannot begin to imagine the amount of criticism I would receive with the advice that I would provide, so I cannot be too harsh on public PF personalities either. At the very least, they're getting people to think about their finances, and driving a little bit of traffic to sites like this one.
Other than the "make lots of money quickly" infomercial guys, are there any personal finance people who use retiring early as the main goal? Seems that would be a nice niche.
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:43 AM   #279
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Every time I see a Suze Orman thread, or references to Dave Ramsey, I make a mental note to watch/listen to them to see what all the fuss is about.

I still haven't gotten around to it. Maybe one day. I actually don't know where I would find their shows. I guess I could find out.
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:00 AM   #280
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Every time I see a Suze Orman thread, or references to Dave Ramsey, I make a mental note to watch/listen to them to see what all the fuss is about.

I still haven't gotten around to it. Maybe one day. I actually don't know where I would find their shows. I guess I could find out.

Suze is on CNBC Saturday at 9-10 pm ET. Dave Ramsey is on a lot of AM radio stations, wouldn't be hard to find him if you look.
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