clifp
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
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- Oct 27, 2006
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4 things Suze doesn't tell you about Muni bonds
The more I think about her advice the more awful it sounds. Here is my experience with muni bonds.
I started buying individual bonds about 1997, when income+stock option was pushing me into the top bracket (39.6%) some years . The California rate was I believe 9.3% so the combined marginal rate was just under 50%. I first bought CA muni fund, then individual CA bonds, eventually when I moved to Hawaii I bought some Puerto Rico (tax exempt all states) and finally bought some Hawaii muni bonds in 2000.
My primary retirement analysis was hey I can take $2 million buy muni bonds that yield 5% that gives me $100K a year to live which is plenty. Plus I have my IRAs to help me keep up with inflation. I kinda of wonder if a similar mindset isn't why Suze is recommending them.
So here are the 4 things that Suze doesn't say about Muni bonds.
#1 Muni bonds got called, a lot. Of the 8 or so individual issue I bought everyone has been partially or total called before maturity. When bond gets called you are then left with having to find an income replacement in lower interest rate environment. Now of course bonds get called when interest rates go down (muni bonds unlike corporate are typically called par instead of a premium). But Muni bonds will get called even if interest rates stay flat.
Imagine you buy a fairly low rated 10 year with a coupon of 3%. Fast forward to 2018 and say interest rates are the same as they are today. You no longer have a 10 year bond you have a 5 year bond. But 5 year muni rates are only 1%. So the City, or state will call the bond and reissue it as a 5 year and save the state 2% a year.
The only environment were Muni bonds work out some what well is where interest rates raise slowly.
#2 Bonds are illiquid which means high commission. If you buy $10,000 worth of stock you pay maybe $10 for commission plus a spread of about $.01 or $.02 cent or <$20 total. For a muni bonds if you are lucky to the commission plus spread will run $100 and $200 is not uncommon. Not a big deal if you buy 10 to 30 year bonds and hold them to maturity but it adds up if of they get called every 3 to 5 years..
Now #1, #2 have always been true but I didn't know when I started buying the bonds these next two are because the muni bond market changed after the crisis.
#3 Muni bond insurance is pretty much worthless. One of the side effects of the 2008 crisis is that pretty much all of the muni bond insurers, also wrote insurance policy on the junk mortgage bonds. Lawsuits and paying of claims for things like credit default swaps has severely weakened the financial situation of most muni bond insurances. If a large city goes broke I wouldn't count get a lot of money from the insurers they just don't have it.
#4 Many local and state finances are in mess and it is virtually impossible for the average investor to really understand what is going on. Historically rating agencies have been too hard on muni bonds. A medium rated A- muni bond has historically been much safer than an A- rated corporate bond. I am not sure this is going be true in the future.
The net effect of #3, and #4 is that individual investor has to be much more sophisticated than in the past. 10-15 years ago there wasn't much risk buying individuals muni, they didn't default and if they did the insurance company would pay you. So all I worried about was interest rates and maturities. This has all changed.
One example in 1999 about $50,000 worth of Puerto Rico general obligations with coupon rate of 5.5% (not exceptional at the time.) and they were insured. A while ago I mentioned the forum on own some and Brewer said you should be really careful with this bond PR finances are in mess. Now I pay attention when Brewer says stuff like this, but because $35,000 of the $50,000 were already called leaving me with a small $15,000 position I put off doing something about. A month ago I awake to article in the WSJ about the horrible pension and budget problems of Puerto Rico. Now the bonds are trading at $.90, but since the mature in 3 years, I will probably just tough it out. But if was a bigger position it would cause some sleepless night. Now mind you this is a bond that has been dutifully paying 5.5% interest for almost 14 years.. My grandfather held muni bonds for decade and he never had worry about them, that is no longer and option.
TL; DR if you are in a high tax bracket a muni fund may makes sense. But buying individual muni bonds the hassle/risk isn't worth it.
The more I think about her advice the more awful it sounds. Here is my experience with muni bonds.
I started buying individual bonds about 1997, when income+stock option was pushing me into the top bracket (39.6%) some years . The California rate was I believe 9.3% so the combined marginal rate was just under 50%. I first bought CA muni fund, then individual CA bonds, eventually when I moved to Hawaii I bought some Puerto Rico (tax exempt all states) and finally bought some Hawaii muni bonds in 2000.
My primary retirement analysis was hey I can take $2 million buy muni bonds that yield 5% that gives me $100K a year to live which is plenty. Plus I have my IRAs to help me keep up with inflation. I kinda of wonder if a similar mindset isn't why Suze is recommending them.
So here are the 4 things that Suze doesn't say about Muni bonds.
#1 Muni bonds got called, a lot. Of the 8 or so individual issue I bought everyone has been partially or total called before maturity. When bond gets called you are then left with having to find an income replacement in lower interest rate environment. Now of course bonds get called when interest rates go down (muni bonds unlike corporate are typically called par instead of a premium). But Muni bonds will get called even if interest rates stay flat.
Imagine you buy a fairly low rated 10 year with a coupon of 3%. Fast forward to 2018 and say interest rates are the same as they are today. You no longer have a 10 year bond you have a 5 year bond. But 5 year muni rates are only 1%. So the City, or state will call the bond and reissue it as a 5 year and save the state 2% a year.
The only environment were Muni bonds work out some what well is where interest rates raise slowly.
#2 Bonds are illiquid which means high commission. If you buy $10,000 worth of stock you pay maybe $10 for commission plus a spread of about $.01 or $.02 cent or <$20 total. For a muni bonds if you are lucky to the commission plus spread will run $100 and $200 is not uncommon. Not a big deal if you buy 10 to 30 year bonds and hold them to maturity but it adds up if of they get called every 3 to 5 years..
Now #1, #2 have always been true but I didn't know when I started buying the bonds these next two are because the muni bond market changed after the crisis.
#3 Muni bond insurance is pretty much worthless. One of the side effects of the 2008 crisis is that pretty much all of the muni bond insurers, also wrote insurance policy on the junk mortgage bonds. Lawsuits and paying of claims for things like credit default swaps has severely weakened the financial situation of most muni bond insurances. If a large city goes broke I wouldn't count get a lot of money from the insurers they just don't have it.
#4 Many local and state finances are in mess and it is virtually impossible for the average investor to really understand what is going on. Historically rating agencies have been too hard on muni bonds. A medium rated A- muni bond has historically been much safer than an A- rated corporate bond. I am not sure this is going be true in the future.
The net effect of #3, and #4 is that individual investor has to be much more sophisticated than in the past. 10-15 years ago there wasn't much risk buying individuals muni, they didn't default and if they did the insurance company would pay you. So all I worried about was interest rates and maturities. This has all changed.
One example in 1999 about $50,000 worth of Puerto Rico general obligations with coupon rate of 5.5% (not exceptional at the time.) and they were insured. A while ago I mentioned the forum on own some and Brewer said you should be really careful with this bond PR finances are in mess. Now I pay attention when Brewer says stuff like this, but because $35,000 of the $50,000 were already called leaving me with a small $15,000 position I put off doing something about. A month ago I awake to article in the WSJ about the horrible pension and budget problems of Puerto Rico. Now the bonds are trading at $.90, but since the mature in 3 years, I will probably just tough it out. But if was a bigger position it would cause some sleepless night. Now mind you this is a bond that has been dutifully paying 5.5% interest for almost 14 years.. My grandfather held muni bonds for decade and he never had worry about them, that is no longer and option.
TL; DR if you are in a high tax bracket a muni fund may makes sense. But buying individual muni bonds the hassle/risk isn't worth it.