Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 02-27-2009, 05:31 PM   #61
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Gone4Good's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 5,381
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
Ok, here is some data for you. Now explain to me what you mean by "did not work".

When I sum the individual tax collections for the 5 years from 2001-2005 (last year with data), I get:

4,199,276 Million dollars collected.


When I sum the individual tax collections for the 5 years from 1996-2000 , I get:

4,031,692 Million dollars collected.

So tell me, is 4,199,276 not larger than 4,031,692?

What didn't work?


-ERD50
Inflation increased the later period receipts by at least 12%. On a constant dollar basis the 2001-2005 receipts would be more like $3,741,767.
__________________

__________________
Gone4Good is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 02-27-2009, 06:19 PM   #62
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: northern Michigan
Posts: 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
Ok, here is some data for you. Now explain to me what you mean by "did not work".

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/05in05tr.xls

When I sum the individual tax collections for the 5 years from 2001-2005 (last year with data), I get:

4,199,276 Million dollars collected.


When I sum the individual tax collections for the 5 years from 1996-2000 , I get:

4,031,692 Million dollars collected.

So tell me, is 4,199,276 not larger than 4,031,692?

What didn't work?

I think it's a little more complicated than just total tax collections. Here is a link to a 2007 NY Times article by economist Robert Frank that goes into a little more depth on why the trickle-down theory has not worked:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/12/bu...cene.html?_r=1

Quote from the article:

"In the 1950s, American executives earned far lower salaries and faced substantially higher marginal tax rates than they do today. Yet most of them competed energetically for higher rungs on the corporate ladder. The claim that slightly higher tax rates would cause today’s executives to abandon that quest is simply not credible."
__________________

__________________
RAE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2009, 06:20 PM   #63
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 11,036
Quote:
Originally Posted by . . . Yrs to Go View Post
Um, because it's not that dramatic. Someone working 50hrs / week making $250,000 / yr makes $65 / hr after tax at the margin. If he works an additional hour and gets taxed at 40% instead of 35% his after-tax hourly rate for that hour only goes down to $60.
But you also lose deductions once you pass the $250K mark. So the hourly loss could much greater.

At any rates, I will let you work that extra hour for less money if it's no big deal. I'll be fishing. And if really it doesn't make that much difference in the end, then why not increase taxes on everyone? Surely you wouldn't mind working an extra hour for 7% less money.
__________________
FIREd is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2009, 06:31 PM   #64
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 11,036
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronc879 View Post
Okay i'll admite that this is just jealousy because i'll never make a base income of more than $55K, in todays dollars, but if you make over a quarter of a million $ a year you don't have anything to complain about. Even if you have to pay an extra couple percent in taxes you still make more than 90% of the US population where the average individual income is under $50K and the average household income is under $70K. Yes you may work hard for that $250K/yr but I work hard too for 12+ hrs a night and nobody earns 5x what I earn... nobody...I agree that small business owners who take on great risk, those with extensive education(ex-lawyers), and those with special skills(ex-doctors) should be rewarded but they shouldn't make more than twice what any other hard working american makes. I just don't see how an extra couple percent in taxes makes it not worth working towards a $250K+ job.

I have nothing against you Aaron, but I got so confused reading your posts that I had to turn on my GPS just to make sure I was still in America. Last time I was meant to feel ashamed of making a good living was I lived in Europe.
__________________
FIREd is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2009, 06:44 PM   #65
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,971
Quote:
Originally Posted by FIREdreamer View Post
I have nothing against you Aaron, but I got so confused reading your posts that I had to turn on my GPS just to make sure I was still in America. Last time I felt so ashamed of making a good living was I lived in Europe.
I have nothing against you making a good living. I just don't believe there should be such a large difference in income between one hard working person and another. Just because someone is willing to pay you six figures doesn't, in my opinion, mean that you 'earn' that much more than the average hard working american. Being on the end that your on I can see you making the agruement your making. I'm just saying that there are two sides to the agruement. I'm not saying i'm right. I'm not sure there is a "right".
__________________
aaronc879 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2009, 06:46 PM   #66
Full time employment: Posting here.
Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 781
I'm still confused at how 95% of Americans will receive a tax cut when a good portion of the 95% don't pay income taxes.
__________________
Dog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2009, 06:48 PM   #67
Moderator
ziggy29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,612
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronc879 View Post
I have nothing against you making a good living. I just don't believe there should be such a large difference in income between one hard working person and another. Just because someone is willing to pay you six figures doesn't, in my opinion, mean that you 'earn' that much more than the average hard working american. Being on the end that your on I can see you making the agruement your making. I'm just saying that there are two sides to the agruement. I'm not saying i'm right. I'm not sure there is a "right".
But the thing is, that's determined by the marketplace. If someone has a six-figure salary, it's because they can do something businesses have decided they have to pay six figures to get. If a business pays you $200,000 a year, it's because they think you'll add more than $200,000 in value to the business each year through your labor.

That's how all salaries are set. We may think some occupations are way overpaid and some are way underpaid, but it's all based on supply and demand. Why do you think nursing salaries have risen so sharply in the last 20 years? The demand has shot through the roof relative to the available supply.
__________________
"Hey, for every ten dollars, that's another hour that I have to be in the work place. That's an hour of my life. And my life is a very finite thing. I have only 'x' number of hours left before I'm dead. So how do I want to use these hours of my life? Do I want to use them just spending it on more crap and more stuff, or do I want to start getting a handle on it and using my life more intelligently?" -- Joe Dominguez (1938 - 1997)

RIP to Reemy, my avatar dog (2003 - 9/16/2017)
ziggy29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2009, 06:48 PM   #68
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Bikerdude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,901
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronc879 View Post
Okay i'll admite that this is just jealousy because i'll never make a base income of more than $55K, in todays dollars, but if you make over a quarter of a million $ a year you don't have anything to complain about. Even if you have to pay an extra couple percent in taxes you still make more than 90% of the US population where the average individual income is under $50K and the average household income is under $70K. Yes you may work hard for that $250K/yr but I work hard too for 12+ hrs a night and nobody earns 5x what I earn... nobody.
Quote:
Guys (and gals), let's not forget - all Obama is doing here is allowing the Bush tax cuts of 2001 and 2003 to expire, for those workers earning over $250,000 joint income ($200,000 individual). He was very clear during the campaign that he intended to do this if elected, and he is now simply following through. Apparently enough people (me included) thought it was a good idea, because he got elected. You can complain/speculate all you want about how this is going to destroy the entrepreneurial spirit in America, but I don't recall the years prior to 2001 being noticeably lacking in entrepreneurial spirit. Let's face it - the Bush tax cuts did not work. Trickle-down economics has been tried, and it has failed miserably. I support Obama's decision.
"The politician who robs Peter to pay Paul will always have the support of Paul".
__________________
“I guess I should warn you, if I turn out to be particularly clear, you've probably misunderstood what I've said” Alan Greenspan
Bikerdude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2009, 07:21 PM   #69
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 11,036
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronc879 View Post
I have nothing against you making a good living. I just don't believe there should be such a large difference in income between one hard working person and another. Just because someone is willing to pay you six figures doesn't, in my opinion, mean that you 'earn' that much more than the average hard working american. Being on the end that your on I can see you making the agruement your making. I'm just saying that there are two sides to the agruement. I'm not saying i'm right. I'm not sure there is a "right".
There sure are 2 sides to that argument. But there is no line in the sand. Had Obama proposed to increase taxes on those making $1M or more, I'd probably be less inclined to protest. And had he proposed to increase taxes on those making $25,000 or more, you'd probably be more inclined to protest.

I know exactly how people on the other side see things. I am surrounded by people who share your ideas. That's why I never divulge my income to anyone I know in real life and keep a low profile by living way below my means. The last thing I want is to be chastised for having or making too much. And perhaps, I should also guard against revealing income and net worth information on this forum as well from now on.

To be clear, I don't mind paying my fair share of taxes (and, as opposed to many rich people I know, I do not think that the current tax code is terribly unfair to the rich) but I am not going to volunteer for excessive taxation either. I really feel like policy makers have engaged in an overt and unapologetic attack on the "rich". Of course, given the current economic situation, it's the path of least resistance and the popular thing to do. Who doesn't like bashing the rich when the cr@p hits the fan? It's been the mobs' favorite sport since ancient times. And it's easy to understand why people who aren't targeted by the attack feel the way they do: they are getting a pay raise (tax cut) while I am getting a pay cut. So what's not to like? Clearly, we all seek what's most advantageous for ourselves. So this discussion is probably going nowhere and that's my final word on this thread.
__________________
FIREd is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2009, 07:30 PM   #70
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Gone4Good's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 5,381
Quote:
Originally Posted by FIREdreamer View Post
At any rates, I will let you work that extra hour for less money if it's no big deal. I'll be fishing.
Really? So I'll take that comment to mean that you work just enough so as to earn up to, but not over, the 10% tax bracket threshold?

No? You mean you keep working after the government takes 10%, and then 15%, and then 25%, etc. etc?
__________________
Gone4Good is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2009, 07:30 PM   #71
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
HFWR's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Lawn chair in Texas
Posts: 12,964
I'm getting a pay raise? Kewl!!
__________________
Have Funds, Will Retire

...not doing anything of true substance...
HFWR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2009, 07:52 PM   #72
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Gone4Good's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 5,381
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronc879 View Post
Just because someone is willing to pay you six figures doesn't, in my opinion, mean that you 'earn' that much more than the average hard working american.

The sense of entitlement among many high income individuals is breathtaking. The idea that "I earned my 7 figure salary" usually ignores the opportunities and protections given the individual, often due to an accident of birth, that made success possible. This is not to say society shouldn't reward high achievement, it should. But high achievers should display a little humility and recognize that our system and infrastructure, built and maintained through the hard work and sacrifice of countless people, both living and dead, is what made that achievement possible.

No one's success is achieved in a vacuum.
__________________
Gone4Good is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2009, 08:15 PM   #73
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Rustic23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Lake Livingston, Tx
Posts: 3,624
Anyway you look at it, it will take $637B out of private sector spending and put it in government sector spending. Now, seeing as we all know that the government sector is far more efficient than the private sector, we can all sleep tight at night.
__________________
Rustic23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2009, 08:22 PM   #74
Recycles dryer sheets
thefinancebuff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronc879 View Post
I agree that small business owners who take on great risk, those with extensive education(ex-lawyers), and those with special skills(ex-doctors) should be rewarded but they shouldn't make more than twice what any other hard working american makes.
If you think doctors and lawyers, or whoever else who make more than twice what others make, are paid too much, why not become one of them? Figure out what they do and do what they do. Then you will make more money too.
__________________
thefinancebuff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2009, 08:27 PM   #75
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: northern Michigan
Posts: 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by . . . Yrs to Go View Post
The sense of entitlement among many high income individuals is breathtaking. The idea that "I earned my 7 figure salary" usually ignores the opportunities and protections given the individual, often due to an accident of birth, that made success possible. This is not to say society shouldn't reward high achievement, it should. But high achievers should display a little humility and recognize that our system and infrastructure, built and maintained through the hard work and sacrifice of countless people, both living and dead, is what made that achievement possible.

No one's success is achieved in a vacuum.
Well put, ...Yrs. to Go.
__________________
RAE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2009, 09:29 PM   #76
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic23 View Post
Anyway you look at it, it will take $637B out of private sector spending and put it in government sector spending. Now, seeing as we all know that the government sector is far more efficient than the private sector, we can all sleep tight at night.
How did the private sector banks do?

How is the private health care system doing in efficiency? Hint, it costs more than public systems in other countries, which get better results.
__________________
explanade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2009, 10:38 PM   #77
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
dex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,105
Quote:
Originally Posted by . . . Yrs to Go View Post
The sense of entitlement among many high income individuals is breathtaking. The idea that "I earned my 7 figure salary" usually ignores the opportunities and protections given the individual, often due to an accident of birth, that made success possible. This is not to say society shouldn't reward high achievement, it should. But high achievers should display a little humility and recognize that our system and infrastructure, built and maintained through the hard work and sacrifice of countless people, both living and dead, is what made that achievement possible.
No one's success is achieved in a vacuum.
Why would anyone, when asked in a public forum, "Do you earn your 7 figure salary" answer no?

If anyone's boss, regardless of their salary, were asked: "Do you earn your salary?"; Why would they say no? Should this worker show some humility? Who is the person who will determine what is the proper level of humility?

There are high achievers and salaried people in every field; even those in the infrastructure etc. you mention.
__________________
Sometimes death is not as tragic as not knowing how to live. This man knew how to live--and how to make others glad they were living. - Jack Benny at Nat King Cole's funeral
dex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2009, 10:41 PM   #78
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Koolau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Leeward Oahu
Posts: 3,240
Interesting "class envy" discussion. But I have another take on all this.

Does anyone here believe it when the gummint says its new tax "plan" will actually bring in $X? Does anyone here believe that these tax changes happen in a vacuum? Does anyone believe the "evil rich" won't (legally) evade some of these taxes or in some other way reduce their tax burden?

Conversely, does anyone hear actually believe the gummint when they say "we will spend $Y" next year? Does anyone think it won't actually be higher than that?

Unless you can answer (an honest) "yes" to all these questions then it follows that raising the taxes on those at the $250k income level WON'T bring in enough to cover the gummint's needs. So guess who they will go after next? Sooner or later they will need to get to YOU no matter how much you make. Sooner or later, YOU will be the evil rich who "deserves" to be taxed.

Honestly, I'm not trying to be offensive or trying to defend one "side" or the other. I'm just saying that the same folks who are proposing new taxes on the "rich" are the same folks who got us in this mess in the first place. I'm suggesting that we've been fooled before and I'm guessing nothing much will change in the future except the numbers (always bigger, of course!) And, no, I'm not talking Republican or Democrat. I'm talking "gummint" of whichever or whatever persuasion. (Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss. Now where did I hear that?)

Of course, YMMV
__________________
Ko'olau's Law -

Anything which can be used can be misused. Anything which can be misused will be.
Koolau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2009, 11:02 PM   #79
Confused about dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 5
A friend sent this to me and I found it interesting reading thought I would pass it on for your viewing.

READ THE TRUTH ABOUT SIMPLE ECONOMICS.....NOT POLITICAL BUT ABSOLUTE FACTS

Life is like a grindstone. Whether it grinds you down or polishes you up depends upon what you are made of.

Who ever this boss is he has it nailed down perfectly........read his entire message and the last 3 paragraphs will make total sense to you....and if you are a left leaning socialistic democrat, this type of thinking just may get you

to re-evaluate your sense of direction for this country. Cuba is a prime example of where we could be if we keep heading towards thinking that the government can provide for our every need....but first get clear in your head "WHAT AND WHO IS THE GOVERNMENT"....just what does the government produce, plant,harvest,and sell to earn the money that they so freely give to those that could, but do not produce and contribute to the productivity of this country. Don't remember where it came from...BUT...once everyone is in the wagon there will be no one left to pull it.

A letter from the Boss:

To All My Valued Employees,

There have been some rumblings around the office about the future of this company, and more specifically, your job. As you know, the economy has changed for the worse and presents many challenges. However, the good news is this: The economy doesn't pose a threat to your job. What does threaten your job however, is the changing political landscape in this country. However, let me tell you some little tidbits of fact which might help you decide what is in your best interests.

First, while it is easy to spew rhetoric that casts employers against employees, you have to understand that for every business owner there is a Back Story. This back story is often neglected and overshadowed by what you see and hear. Sure, you see me park my Mercedes outside. You've seen my big home at last years Christmas party. I'm sure; all these flashy icons of luxury conjure up some idealized thoughts about my life.

However, what you don't see is the BACK STORY:

I started this company 28 years ago. At that time, I lived in a 300 square foot studio apartment for 3 years. My entire living apartment was converted into an office so I could put forth 100% effort into building a company, which by the way, would eventually employ you.

My diet consisted of Ramen Pride noodles because every dollar I saved went back into this company. I drove a rusty
Toyota Corolla with a defective transmission. I didn't have time to date. Often times, I stayed home on weekends, while my friends went out drinking and partying. In fact, I was married to my business -- hard work, discipline, and sacrifice.

Meanwhile, my friends got jobs. They worked 40 hours a week and made a modest $50K a year and spent every dime they earned. They drove flashy cars and lived in expensive homes and wore fancy designer clothes. Instead of hitting the Nordstrom's for the latest hot fashion item, I was trolling through the discount store extracting any clothing item that didn't look like it was birthed in the 70's. My friends refinanced their mortgages and lived a life of luxury. I, however, did not. I put my time, my money, and my life into a business with a vision that eventually, some day, I too, will be able to afford these luxuries my friends supposedly had.

So, while you physically arrive at the office at 9am, mentally check in at about noon, and then leave at 5pm, I don't. There is no "off" button for me. When you leave the office, you are done and you have a weekend all to yourself. I unfortunately do not have the freedom. I eat, and breathe this company every minute of the day. There is no rest. There is no weekend. There is no happy hour. Every day this business is attached to my hip like a 1 year old special-needs child. You, of course, only see the fruits of that garden -- the nice house, the Mercedes, the vacations...you never realize the Back Story and the sacrifices I've made.

Now, the economy is falling apart and I, the guy that made all the right decisions and saved his money, have to bail-out all the people who didn't. The people that overspent their paychecks suddenly feel entitled to the same luxuries that I earned and sacrificed a decade of my life for.

Yes, business ownership has is benefits, but the price I've paid is steep and not without wounds.

Unfortunately, the cost of running this business, and employing you, is starting to eclipse the threshold of marginal benefit and let me tell you why: I am being taxed to death and the government thinks I don't pay enough. I have state taxes. Federal taxes. Property taxes. Sales and use taxes. Payroll taxes. Workers compensation taxes. Unemployment taxes. Taxes on taxes. I have to hire a tax man to manage all these taxes and then guess what? I have to pay taxes for employing him. Government mandates, regulations, and all the accounting that goes with it, now occupy most of my time. On Oct 15th, I wrote a check to the US Treasury for $288,000 for quarterly taxes. You know what my "stimulus" check was? Zero. Nada. Zilch.

The question I have is this: Who is stimulating the economy? Me, the guy who has provided 14 people good paying jobs and serves over 2,200,000 people per year with a flourishing business? Or, the single mother sitting at home pregnant with her fourth child waiting for her next welfare check? Obviously, government feels the latter is the economic stimulus of this country.

The fact is, if I deducted (Read: Stole) 50% of your paycheck you'd quit and you wouldn't work here. I mean, why should you? That's nuts. Who wants to get rewarded only 50% of their hard work? Well, I agree which is why your job is in jeopardy.

Here is what many of you don't understand ... to stimulate the economy you need to stimulate what runs the economy. Had suddenly government mandated to me that I didn't need to pay taxes, guess what? Instead of depositing that $288,000 into the Washington black-hole, I would have spent it, hired more employees, and generated substantial economic growth. My employees would have enjoyed the wealth of that tax cut in the form of promotions and better salaries. But you can forget it now.

When you have a comatose man on the verge of death, you don't defibrillate and shock his thumb thinking that will bring him back to life, do you? Or, do you defibrillate his heart? Business is at the heart of America and always has been. To restart it, you must stimulate it, not kill it. Suddenly, the power brokers in Washington believe the poor of America are the essential drivers of the American economic engine. Nothing could be further from the truth and this is the type of change you can keep.

So where am I going with all this?

It's quite simple.

If any new taxes are levied on me, or my company, my reaction will be swift and simple. I fire you. I fire your co-workers. You can then plead with the government to pay for your mortgage, your SUV, and your child's future. Frankly, it isn't my problem any more.

Then, I will close this company down, move to another country, and retire. You see, I'm done. I'm done with a country that penalizes the productive and gives to the unproductive. My motivation to work and to provide jobs will be destroyed.

So, if you lose your job, it won't be at the hands of the economy; it will be at the hands of a political hurricane that swept through this country, steamrolled the constitution, and will have changed its landscape forever. If that happens, you can find me sitting on a beach, retired, and with no employees to worry about...


Signed, THE BOSS

__________________
OU812 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2009, 11:06 PM   #80
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
dex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koolau View Post
Does anyone here believe
Welcome to the dark side.
__________________

__________________
Sometimes death is not as tragic as not knowing how to live. This man knew how to live--and how to make others glad they were living. - Jack Benny at Nat King Cole's funeral
dex is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Harvesting tax losses this year? roger r FIRE and Money 19 10-30-2008 07:50 AM
Tax Question: 1st Year of Desig Roth Contrib TromboneAl FIRE and Money 1 02-04-2008 08:09 PM
End of year tax planning for wage slaves.... maddythebeagle Young Dreamers 22 12-22-2006 09:39 AM
Dory, i'd like to bring up... brewer12345 Other topics 27 03-19-2005 08:11 PM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:45 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.