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Re: Tax-Reform and the Housing Market.
Old 10-22-2005, 08:39 AM   #101
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Re: Tax-Reform and the Housing Market.

Hi Guys!

Fascinating subject. *Want to put in my 2 cents worth. *I think some of this is comparing apples and oranges. *In our situation, DH and I own a piece of commercial rental property that has dramatically increased in value over the last couple of years and looks to do even better in the next couple of years due to local development projects. *When we sell (this is our plan) we will pay the capital gains at that point. *The money left over (NET) will be what we invest to live upon for our ER. *Now, not figuring in any capital gains on top of that NET amount - i.e., what if DH and I drop dead (God forbid) the next day after that - our two daughters will end up paying an inheritance (estate) tax on that money that has already been taxed. *[Yes, I plan on figuring out an "esate" plan prior to all this to avoid this scenario.] *Hypothetically, this could happen to a family and really is a double taxation. *

Granted, DH and I do not want or plan to just hand over a sum of money to our kids that they may not be ready to handle, but right now if we both went tomorrow it would be a mess for them. *[Additional note - FYI, my dad and sister are capable of helping a lot in this case. *Dad is executor of our wills.] Luckily we have always been real estate poor (money on paper but not in hand), so they (kids) *have always worked for what they want and have seen how hard we (mom & dad) work for what we have - so I guess they would do better than the average as stewards of their money. But still, back to my original point, is it fair for a family to pay taxes twice on the same money? *I think not.

Interested to hear replies and rebuttals! *

Jane

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Re: Tax-Reform and the Housing Market.
Old 10-22-2005, 10:41 AM   #102
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Re: Tax-Reform and the Housing Market.

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Originally Posted by Martha
And as I said before, I would rather pay the tax when I am dead than pay a higher rate now when I am alive.*
But if everyone in the US died at the same time, what would we do with all the estate taxes?
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Re: Tax-Reform and the Housing Market.
Old 10-22-2005, 12:30 PM   #103
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Re: Tax-Reform and the Housing Market.

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Originally Posted by . . . Yrs to Go

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Re: Tax-Reform and the Housing Market.
Old 10-22-2005, 12:48 PM   #104
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Re: Tax-Reform and the Housing Market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martha
I understand that conservatives want less taxes. But first you will have to reduce your spending and pay for what you already bought. Again, I would rather address spending needs through an estate tax than a higher tax on wage earners.

One other point on the estate taxes. The increase in value over the basis in assets that are inherited get a stepped up basis. Thus this increase is never taxed except through the estate tax, and only to extent the value of the estate exceeds the unified credit. Therefore the point about double taxation isn't really correct.
Good points,

I too, am a fan of less taxes, but I don't think anyone on this board is fooled into thinking they got a tax cut over the last half decade, right? Until we cut spending, all we are doing is tax defferal. So many people here are into personal responsibility, yet are strangely mute when it comes to pushing the cost of our benefits/lifestyle on to future generations. If you don't want higher taxes now, show me where to cut spending now.
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Re: Tax-Reform and the Housing Market.
Old 10-22-2005, 12:59 PM   #105
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Re: Tax-Reform and the Housing Market.

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Originally Posted by Laurence
I too, am a fan of less taxes, but I don't think anyone on this board is fooled into thinking they got a tax cut over the last half decade, right? Until we cut spending, all we are doing is tax defferal. So many people here are into personal responsibility, yet are strangely mute when it comes to pushing the cost of our benefits/lifestyle on to future generations. If you don't want higher taxes now, show me where to cut spending now.
I'm seeing the Feds cut taxes and spending in certain areas.
I'm seeing the Feds push the responsibility for some programs down to the state level here in Minnesota.
I'm seeing the state push the responsibility for some of these programs down to the local level.
I'm seeing less fed taxes, more state taxes and more property taxes!
It maybe a wash. :
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Re: Tax-Reform and the Housing Market.
Old 10-22-2005, 01:03 PM   #106
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Re: Tax-Reform and the Housing Market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurence
I too, am a fan of less taxes, but I don't think anyone on this board is fooled into thinking they got a tax cut over the last half decade, right?* Until we cut spending, all we are doing is tax defferal.* So many people here are into personal responsibility, yet are strangely mute when it comes to pushing the cost of our benefits/lifestyle on to future generations.* If you don't want higher taxes now, show me where to cut spending now.
We don't have a post req system so I just have to post my req. Unfortunately, I don't ever hear the "no tax is a good tax" proponents answer this question.
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Re: Tax-Reform and the Housing Market.
Old 10-22-2005, 06:29 PM   #107
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Re: Tax-Reform and the Housing Market.

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Originally Posted by Laurence
Good points,

I too, am a fan of less taxes, but I don't think anyone on this board is fooled into thinking they got a tax cut over the last half decade, right?* Until we cut spending, all we are doing is tax defferal.* So many people here are into personal responsibility, yet are strangely mute when it comes to pushing the cost of our benefits/lifestyle on to future generations.* If you don't want higher taxes now, show me where to cut spending now.
You are kidding right? "Show me where to cut spending now"................
My God man, look anywhere. The waste is obvious and insane, at every
level. You forgot the smiley face. Right?

JG
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Re: Tax-Reform and the Housing Market.
Old 10-23-2005, 05:36 AM   #108
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Re: Tax-Reform and the Housing Market.

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The waste is obvious and insane, at every
level.
That is my impression also. Put me in charge of the budget, and I guarantee myriad cuts. I wouldn't put up with the nonsense.
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Re: Tax-Reform and the Housing Market.
Old 10-23-2005, 09:29 AM   #109
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Re: Tax-Reform and the Housing Market.

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Originally Posted by Have Funds, Will Retire
I suppose we could (and do) argue ad nauseum about taxes and spending...

But in the end, we need to pay for what we spend, so if the government, and the "people", by extension, decide to spend $X trillion, then the revenue HAS to match. End of story, IMHO...*
Uh, SG, I beg to differ...

Although I wouldn't necessarily lump myself into the "no tax is a good tax" group...
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Re: Tax-Reform and the Housing Market.
Old 10-23-2005, 09:59 AM   #110
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Re: Tax-Reform and the Housing Market.

JG, Michael, let me re-phrase, we all know there is a ton of pork in the budget, but it's pork of the party in power's choosing. I was saying, show me some spending you have a snowball's chance in hell getting cut in this Congress, with this President in power. So people can chant, "starve the beast!" all they want, but it's not happening. The vast majority of the budget is made up of SS, Medicare, Military spending, and interest payments on the debt. So tell me, where do you want to cut? The bridge to nowhere in Alaska is a repugnant piece of pork, but it's a drop in the bucket, really. Everybody wants to have their cake and eat it, too.

Now me, I'd repeal the Medicare drug benefit, there is some spending cut, but I'd also raise the ceiling on SS tax above it's current ~80k limit. So there I propose both a spending cut and a tax increase. A non-starter.

So yes, give me specifics, tell me what you would cut, and how much it would save. I'll even give you the assumption of absolute power to get it done. We are over 7 trillion in debt, I'm open to any way you can think of that doesn't involve a tax increase, but I'm not convinced it can be done.
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Re: Tax-Reform and the Housing Market.
Old 10-23-2005, 11:58 AM   #111
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Re: Tax-Reform and the Housing Market.

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Uh, SG, I beg to differ...

Although I wouldn't necessarily lump myself into the "no tax is a good tax" group...
Well . . . you can differ all you want. But once again, all we got on this thread is, "There's plenty of waste. I would be able to cut it." The interesting thing is that the Republican party said this same thing for years. Then they got in office and apparently couldn't really find anything to do but spend more.

Claiming that there is plenty of waste without identifying exactly what it is and how much you would gain by cutting it is BS. Some of the "cuts" people come up with actually end up costing more somewhere else. Some of the "cuts" won't really save very much money. Some of the "cuts"are not enforceable without spending more money than they save. . .

But just in case some of you want to get serious about identifying reasonable cuts, here's where to start. Stop fighting the second war in Iraq that was based on mythical WMDs. We are fighting a real war on terrorism that is expensive enough. Adding this second war was a dumb move that is very expensive.
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Re: Tax-Reform and the Housing Market.
Old 10-23-2005, 12:35 PM   #112
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Re: Tax-Reform and the Housing Market.

Uh, my post said we should tax enough to cover expenditures. Some issue with that?

As far as Iraq, I was duped into supporting it with lies and deception. My bad... I don't see how cutting and running serves the "greater good' at this point.

I'm no expert on every nuance of the federal budget, and frankly I see no one calling for me to fix it, so moot point...

To quote Gene Hackman, from "Mississippi Burning", "Don't go mistakin' me for some whole other person". Not a neo-con; more of a Forbes/Kemp fiscal conservative, with some "ain't none of your business" libertarian thrown in for good measure.
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Re: Tax-Reform and the Housing Market.
Old 10-23-2005, 01:42 PM   #113
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Re: Tax-Reform and the Housing Market.

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Uh, my post said we should tax enough to cover expenditures. Some issue with that?* *
Sorry, I thought you meant to imply that there were people posting ideas about how to cut the budget to match their desire not to pay any taxes.

Quote:
As far as Iraq, I was duped into supporting it with lies and deception. My bad... I don't see how cutting and running serves the "greater good' at this point.
Well . . . that's the conventional TV news wisdom today. You can say that and feel comfortable that there aren't too many talking heads who will question you. But I'm no talking head, so I will. You feel like "cutting and running" won't serve the "greater good". But do you really believe that "staying and losing lives" is serving any "greater good"? And what "good" is it that you see it as serving? I'll admit that withdrawal at this point is not a happy decision. But staying is even worse. We've found ourselves in a hole. The first thing we need to do is stop digging.

Prior to this administration's costly campaign to sell this war, almost no one in the US thought Iraq was a serious problem. Heck, much of the population didn't even know who Saddam was or where Iraq was. The administration tried to sell us on a terrorism-Iraq connection and the public and the rest of the world rejected it. They tried to sell us on a UN violation problem and the rest of the world rejected it. So did the public at first. Then WMD caught on in the US, public opinion in favor of the war grew, and off we go to war. Now we know that WMDs were an elaborate hoax. Saddam is gone. But it seems that after wrapping themselves in the flag and rushing off to kill Iraqis, we can't admit we were duped and just leave. Staying there is like picking at a scab. But we just have to keep picking.

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Re: Tax-Reform and the Housing Market.
Old 10-23-2005, 02:30 PM   #114
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Re: Tax-Reform and the Housing Market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ((^+^)) SG
Claiming that there is plenty of waste without identifying exactly what it is and how much you would gain by cutting it is BS.* Some of the "cuts" people come up with actually end up costing more somewhere else.* Some of the "cuts" won't really save very much money.* Some of the "cuts"are not enforceable without spending more money than they save. . .
It's not really all that difficult SG.* Just cap federal expenditure growth at the rate of CPI and we'll have a balanced budget in about a decade, if not sooner.* Capping it at CPI - 1% would be even better because it would actually force politicians to set spending priorities and seek out efficiencies like the rest of the world does, God forbid.*

I don't know if this is well known but in "Washingtoneese" a reduction in spending GROWTH is called a spending "cut".* So if the spending baseline calls for a 10% increase in education spending next year, reducing the growth to 5% (or 2% above inflation) gets all the news papers and politicians hollering that "we're gutting education spending with these vicious cuts that deprive our children of $x billion over the next ten years.* Blah, blah, blah, crap!"

Take a look at the profligate spending of the Federal government and then try to argue with a straight face that some spending restraint isn't in order:

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Re: Tax-Reform and the Housing Market.
Old 10-23-2005, 02:35 PM   #115
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Re: Tax-Reform and the Housing Market.

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Originally Posted by Martha
Who are the folks receiving the transfer payments?* National defense contractors?* Social security and medicare recipients?* Federal highway projects? My niece's daughter that was born without enough intestine to live, who gets about $500 a month in SSI?* My husband's former tenant who has hundreds of epilepic seizures a year, who gets the same in SSI?*
Yup all of these people and plenty of others. Talk to my mother who worked as an inner city social worker for 15 years (thankfully now retired) about all the "hard luck" cases that walked through her door every day. About all the perfectly healthy people who demanded their entitlements but always had an excuse as to why they were unable to find a job for the last x number of years.

Safety nets are fine as long as there are controls in place that prevent them from being used as hammocks.
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Re: Tax-Reform and the Housing Market.
Old 10-23-2005, 03:13 PM   #116
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Re: Tax-Reform and the Housing Market.

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Originally Posted by . . . Yrs to Go
It's not really all that difficult SG.* Just cap federal expenditure growth at the rate of CPI and we'll have a balanced budget in about a decade, if not sooner.* Capping it at CPI - 1% would be even better because it would actually force politicians to set spending priorities and seek out efficiencies like the rest of the world does, God forbid.*
That's pretty naive and simple minded. I don't think this proposal is put together for any reason other than neo-con spin. They don't even believe or pursue it's imlementation. It would be un-enforceable, it would be dangerous without massive loopholes, it is not politically viable, . . . And of course it doesn't address the question at all. "What do you cut?" is the question. You haven't listed a single item.

Quote:
I don't know if this is well known but in "Washingtoneese" a reduction in spending GROWTH is called a spending "cut". So if the spending baseline calls for a 10% increase in education spending next year, reducing the growth to 5% (or 2% above inflation) gets all the news papers and politicians hollering that "we're gutting education spending with these vicious cuts that deprive our children of $x billion over the next ten years. Blah, blah, blah, crap!"
Making sweeping accusations like this is easy if you are surrounded by people who just want to believe you and don't look at underlying facts. There are balanced, fact driven news sources and government reports that state the facts -- which budgets go up, which go down, and by how much. You should consider following a real news source.

Quote:
Take a look at the profligate spending of the Federal government and then try to argue with a straight face that some spending restraint isn't in order:

Again, we are offered sweeping generalizations without specific ideas. I really do believe that Americans are beginning to see through this kind of neo-con nonsense. Most on this board believe that spending needs to be brought in line with taxation. We need to stop charging future generations for our sloppy financial habits. But so far on this thread, I think I am the only one who has actually offered a specific spending reduction idea.

Now I'll go one step further. I'll offer a tax idea: eliminate the newly instated windfall tax breaks for the wealthiest 1-2% of the population.

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Re: Tax-Reform and the Housing Market.
Old 10-23-2005, 03:34 PM   #117
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Re: Tax-Reform and the Housing Market.

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I was saying, show me some spending you have a snowball's chance in hell getting cut in this Congress, with this President in power.
Oh, there isn't any. The politicians are far too corrupt to drop anything that gives them kick backs. They are so corrupt that they don't even realize that what they are doing is corrupt. Pork is here to stay.
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Re: Tax-Reform and the Housing Market.
Old 10-23-2005, 05:01 PM   #118
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Re: Tax-Reform and the Housing Market.

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Originally Posted by Laurence


Now me, I'd repeal the Medicare drug benefit, there is some spending cut, but I'd also raise the ceiling on SS tax above it's current ~80k limit.
Laurence (jumping up and down in the back of the classroom)," See I gave a specific idea, too SG!"

From http://www.heritage.org/Press/Commentary/ed041405b.cfm

"The April 15 tax deadline provides taxpayers the opportunity to examine how their elected officials will spend their hard-earned tax dollars.

Washington will spend $22,039 per household in 2005 -- the highest inflation-adjusted total since World War II, and $4,000 more than in 2001. The federal government will collect $18,248 per household in taxes. The remaining $3,791 represents the budget deficit per household, which, along with all prior government debt, will be dumped in the laps of our children.

Here’s a breakdown of how Washington will spend that $22,039 per household:

Social Security/Medicare: $7,245. The 15.3 percent payroll tax, split evenly between the employer and employee, covers most of these costs. This system can remain sustainable only if there are enough workers to support all retirees, which is why it risks collapsing under the weight of 77 million retiring baby boomers. If nothing is done, taxes will need to be raised by the current equivalent of $5,200 per household by 2030 and $13,500 per household in 2050 to pay all promised benefits. The unpredictable costs of the new Medicare drug entitlement could add thousands more to each household’s tax bill.

Defense: $4,451. The defense budget covers everything from military salaries to operations in Iraq and Afghanistan to the research, development and acquisition of new technologies. Lawmakers drastically reduced defense spending following the collapse of communism in the early 1990s. The 9/11 attacks reversed this trend, and the $1,500 per household increase since 2001 has returned defense spending to its historical levels.

Low-income programs: $3,559. Nearly half of this spending subsidizes state Medicaid programs that provide health services to poor families. In line with economy-wide health-care trends, Medicaid costs are rising 9 percent per year. Other low-income spending includes: Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF), food stamps, housing subsidies, child-care subsidies, Supplemental Security Income (SSI) and low-income tax credits.

Interest on the federal debt: $1,582. The federal government is $8 trillion in debt. It owes $4.7 trillion to public bond owners, and the rest to other federal agencies (mostly to repay the Social Security trust fund, which lawmakers raid annually). Record-low interest rates have reduced the interest payments by $1,000 per household since 1998. As interest rates rise back to normal levels, so will these costs to taxpayers.

Federal employee retirement benefits: $838. This spending funds the retirement and disability benefits of federal employees, including the military. Interest from federal trust funds covers part of this spending.

Education: $627. Primarily a state and local function, 9 percent of education spending comes from Washington. Federal education spending has surged 100 percent since the 2001 enactment of the No Child Left Behind Act. Most federal dollars are spent on low-income school districts, special education and college student financial aid.

Health research/regulation: $614. Health research spending has doubled since 1999, and nearly all of that growth has been concentrated in the National Institute of Health. This category includes the Food and Drug Administration and dozens of grant programs for health providers.

Veterans’ benefits: $606. The federal government provides income and health benefits to war veterans. Spending is up 51 percent since 2001.

Highways/mass transit: $388. Most highway and mass-transit spending is financed by the 18.4 cent per-gallon federal gas tax. Washington subtracts an administrative cost and sends this money back to the states with numerous strings attached. Some economists suggest it would be more efficient to let states collect this tax and decide how to spend the money themselves.

Justice administration: $361. Justice spending includes federal attorneys and prisons, as well as law enforcement grant programs. New homeland security costs have added $80 per household to justice spending.

Unemployment benefits: $338. Unemployment costs fluctuate based on the number of unemployed Americans. Recent costs have ranged between $220 per household in 2000 and $526 per household in 2003. This year, unemployment costs are decreasing as job growth continues.

International affairs: $284. This includes foreign economic and military assistance, operation of American embassies abroad, and contributions to organizations such as the United Nations. International spending has doubled since 9/11.

Natural resources/environment: $275. This includes national parks, federal lands, water projects and environmental clean-up.

Agriculture: $271. Despite rhetoric about supporting small family farms, the vast majority of farm subsidies are distributed to large farms with average household incomes over $135,000.

The programs listed above cover $21,441 per household. The remaining $598 is allocated to all other federal programs, including social services, space exploration, air transportation and community development.

Taxpayers must decide for themselves if they’re getting their money’s worth."

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Re: Tax-Reform and the Housing Market.
Old 10-23-2005, 05:30 PM   #119
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Re: Tax-Reform and the Housing Market.

SG........it pains me to say this, but you are in danger of losing what little credibility you had. Example: you refer to neo-cons
(it seems you use the tag improperly) and suggest that you are the only one" offering "solutions" What is that? You are
entering a Twilight Zone of political thought. You need to lighten up
and get a grip.

JG
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Re: Tax-Reform and the Housing Market.
Old 10-23-2005, 05:32 PM   #120
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Re: Tax-Reform and the Housing Market.

Quote:
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Laurence (jumping up and down in the back of the classroom)," See I gave a specific idea, too SG!"*

. . .
Sorry, Laurence. You get a gold star and my bad.
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