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Re: Ten Things to Stop Doing in 2006
Old 01-05-2006, 01:32 PM   #41
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Re: Ten Things to Stop Doing in 2006

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Originally Posted by HaHa
... 49 cents pound frozen chicken wings...
Ha, you're getting screwed paying those kind of prices. I can get 'em wholesale for half that.

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Re: Ten Things to Stop Doing in 2006
Old 01-05-2006, 01:59 PM   #42
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Re: Ten Things to Stop Doing in 2006

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Originally Posted by HaHa
You apparently don't get it. This board is full of people who will move away from their families and friends, move away from parents, leave nice climates in attractive cities, eat 49 cents pound frozen chicken wings, so they can "retire early" and go pick up pennies in some woebegone rural redoubt. For most people, this is not normal behavior, borne of normal attitudes.
Ha,

You apparently don't get it. People relocate all the time for economic or social reasons. Migrate from one country to another, one city to another, or one state to another. That's been the case during the last few hundred years at least. Historically, it hasn't been to retire early. It's been to survive, put food on the table, squeak out an existence. Now, as standards of living have risen to a sufficiently high level, people move for "quality of life issues" - better weather, culture, amenities, public services, religious acceptance, lower cost of living.

Some move from Rural America to SoCal, Hollywood, the big apple, Florida, etc. because that is where there are jobs. Others from these big city areas want to slow it down a notch and move to Small Town America to live, work and raise a family.

Dave implied that he doesn't see how an average person in Florida can make a decent living let alone save anything for retirement, early or not. When questions like that arise, it's either time to figure it out for yourself or question why you live in such a place.

You stated "For most people, this is not normal behavior, borne of normal attitudes". I would suggest relocating for economic reasons is a very normal and common behavior, borne of normal attitudes. It happens all the time to people all over the socioeconomic ladder. Deprivation, taken to extremes, is not common in the U.S. But I'm not suggesting deprivation is a necessary course of action. Rather, a self-evaluation is needed of why one lives in a particular place. What does it cost, what are the benefits (good jobs, family/friends nearby, etc.).

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Re: Ten Things to Stop Doing in 2006
Old 01-05-2006, 02:27 PM   #43
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Re: Ten Things to Stop Doing in 2006

There I go, shooting off my mouth, and I learn once again that I am wrong on all counts.

What's a peckerwood like me to do?

I guess just be grateful that I can get all this information for free.

Ha
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Re: Ten Things to Stop Doing in 2006
Old 01-05-2006, 03:12 PM   #44
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Re: Ten Things to Stop Doing in 2006

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Originally Posted by WhodaThunkit
And it must be right, because you read it on the Internet!
At least you can rest assured that the advice is worth every penny you paid for it.

Opinions are like a$$holes. Some stink more than others
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Re: Ten Things to Stop Doing in 2006
Old 01-05-2006, 03:14 PM   #45
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Re: Ten Things to Stop Doing in 2006

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Originally Posted by WhodaThunkit
How about an even better price on some used ones [chicken wings]?
Uh oh. Sounds like 'ol You-Know-Whoda's been hanging around the back door of Hooters again. :


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Re: Ten Things to Stop Doing in 2006
Old 01-05-2006, 07:21 PM   #46
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Re: Ten Things to Stop Doing in 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterBlaster
Regarding US versus international tax rates:

The studies along these lines that I have seen convieniently ommit the additional US tax burden of state, property, social security, and medicare taxes. When those are included US tax rates don't seem so low anymore.

Keep in mind who is publishing the study and what their political agenda is.

Still, Since US medical care is paid for outside of the government (for many people) then US tax rates would tend to be much lower than other industrialized countries.
Rather than reference mysterious "studies" why not look at actual tax rates?
A family of 4 with 2 dependent children living in "high tax" NY state earning $50K per year will pay approximately the following in taxes:

Income $50,000
Federal Tax $2,715
FICA $3,563
NY State $1,558
NY Sales tax $1,350
Total Tax $9,185

Total tax as a % of income 18.4%.

As far as medical care, most people get insurance through their employer so you should include that as income rather than as an increase in the tax burden.
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Re: Ten Things to Stop Doing in 2006
Old 01-05-2006, 07:30 PM   #47
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Re: Ten Things to Stop Doing in 2006

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Originally Posted by davew894
I was responding to the posters comments that "Anyone in the middle class can retire early if they choose to do without some of this stuff." (emphasis not added)

That statement is totally out of touch with reality. *
Do the math my friend. For a 20 year old if we assume 3% inflation, 4% spending growth, 5% wage growth, and 8% market returns an initial savings rate of 15% of income will result in a 4% SWR situation by his/her 55th birthday. These are not crazy assumptions. Early retirement is perfectly achievable for almost anyone who wants it and plans for it early enough. That people don't do it is irrelevant to the question of whether or not they can, or could have.
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Re: Ten Things to Stop Doing in 2006
Old 01-05-2006, 07:33 PM   #48
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Re: Ten Things to Stop Doing in 2006

Yrs2Go:

I'm not sure what your point is from your post.

You should probably throw in some property taxes as well to your example.
However from your numbers the Federal tax only represents 29 % of their total tax burden. So be careful when you compare US tax rates to other countries.

Also it might be interesting to do the same for a single NYC professional making $200k/year. I'll bet that person has a much higher average tax rate.

I have no data, but I read that the total tax bite for most people is around 40-50 percent when you add it all up.
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Re: Ten Things to Stop Doing in 2006
Old 01-05-2006, 07:51 PM   #49
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Re: Ten Things to Stop Doing in 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterBlaster
Yrs2Go:

I'm not sure what your point is from your post.

You should probably throw in some property taxes as well to your example.
However from your numbers the Federal tax only represents 29 % of their total tax burden. So be careful when you compare US tax rates to other countries.

Also it might be interesting to do the same for a single NYC professional making $200k/year. I'll bet that person has a much higher average tax rate.
The point of my post is that for average folks total taxes are pretty low.* Property taxes would add to the total probably by a few % points but mortgage interest deductions could further lower the federal tax burden.* This family may also rent.*

Even for high income folks the tax burden isn't the 60+% we've seen thrown around here.* A NY resident making 200,000 without itemizing or using any tax deferred accounts would pay something like:

Income* * * * * * * * * $200,000
Federal* * * * * * * * * * $43,292
FICA* * * * * * * * * * * * * *$6,413
State* * * * * * * * * * * * $12,091
Sales Tax* * * * * * * * * * $3,749
Property Tax* * * * * * *$10,000
* Total Taxes* * * * * * *$75,544

Taxes as a % of total income 37.8%.

Any guess as to what someone making $200,000 in France might pay?


I'd like to see the calculation behind the claim that "most" people pay between 40-50% of their income in taxes. It simply isn't true. Look at your tax returns for last year and tell me what you see. Use those tax tables to calculate what an "average" family would pay and see for yourself.
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Re: Ten Things to Stop Doing in 2006
Old 01-05-2006, 07:53 PM   #50
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Re: Ten Things to Stop Doing in 2006

I'm not sure, but I'd bet the people making 200k a year surrender faster than the guys who make 50k.
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Re: Ten Things to Stop Doing in 2006
Old 01-05-2006, 08:34 PM   #51
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Re: Ten Things to Stop Doing in 2006

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Originally Posted by davew894
You need to include taxes your employers pays on your behalf... another 7.65%, as this money would go to you if your employer didn't have to pay the feds or this money would be returned in the form of lower prices overall.* Also be sure to include property taxes, gas taxes, landline and cellphone telephone taxes, electricity taxes, alcohol taxes, toll road expenses, vehicle registration taxes, homeowners insurance surcharges and taxes, water and sewer taxes, cable TV taxes and the like.* Health insurance premiums really should be included as well if you are comparing the US tax burden to another industralized country.* You should also consider the expenses you incur in the production of income that are not deductible.* Anyone with a job has them.* It's an expense that wouldn't be there if you weren't working (ie - a second car, lunches out, dry cleaning, extra haircuts, etc)... making it essentially function as a de facto tax.* The rate is 50-60% for most.
Dude, most of this stuff is trivial in the US . . . certainly not enough to drive the 18% rate I calculated to 60%. *Do you really think the average family pays $20K on miscellaneous charges like vehicle registration taxes? *Do you really think any of this stuff is lower overseas with an 18%+ VAT and gasoline taxes that push the cost of petrol to something like $5 per liter? *

And as far as the 50% of FICA and health insurance that companies pay, you can just as easily look at that as income.

Do people overseas not have expenses incurred in the production of income? *

I know you are trying to make your point but you are really stretching with a lot of this stuff. *
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Re: Ten Things to Stop Doing in 2006
Old 01-05-2006, 08:54 PM   #52
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Re: Ten Things to Stop Doing in 2006

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Originally Posted by davew894
* No one has a right to benefit from the fruits of one's labor more than the laborer himself.*
Jeez, just when you had me supporting some of your arguments, you came up with this. Have you heard of capitalism? This statement is just flat out
false. Was this a CHP??

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Re: Ten Things to Stop Doing in 2006
Old 01-05-2006, 08:57 PM   #53
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Re: Ten Things to Stop Doing in 2006

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Originally Posted by davew894
REWahoo, I sure hope not. They are both a little young to tell right now, but they show a lot of promise. I just want to make sure that every opportunity is afforded to them that is rightfully theirs. Labor and working seem to be taxed more and more as the years go by. It's probably going to get worse with the baby boomers entering retirement. No one has a right to benefit from the fruits of one's labor more than the laborer himself....
For a second there I was sure your next sentence was going to contain the phrase "dictatorship of the proletariat". My apologies for making such an inappropriate assumption.

BTW, some of us old leeches boomers, even those of us with outdated respect for concepts like honor and integrity, have children and grandchildren and share you concern for the tax burden on future generations.

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Re: Ten Things to Stop Doing in 2006
Old 01-05-2006, 08:59 PM   #54
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Re: Ten Things to Stop Doing in 2006

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Originally Posted by davew894
Thanks Ha.* I don't mind the jabs and punches when I post something like this.* Saying something about the USA that is different than what is reported on the rah-rah! nightly news always generates a stir.* It's great though when someone wakes up and some of this stuff I ramble on about starts making some sense to them.

I'm writing a book about government, capitalism and how these two powerful forces impact each and every American and how these forces actually help those who can make it to FIRE.* I got motivated to write it when they arrested my Libertarian presidential candidate, on the ballot in all 50 states, for showing up at the Presidential debates (not to create a stir, but just to debate with Bush and Kerry).* He tried for months to be included and was repeatedly rejected.*

I have 30 pages so far. * Maybe that will bring me a couple years closer to FIRE if I can find a publisher with the guts to print it.
I wish you luck with the book idea, truly. I don't detect any particularly
impressive writing skills, but many many people get published without
any, so it could happen.

JG
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Re: Ten Things to Stop Doing in 2006
Old 01-05-2006, 09:52 PM   #55
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Re: Ten Things to Stop Doing in 2006

I am a European living in Asia and taxes for sure are on the rise in EU. Asia will follow. Our governemnts (Incl. the US) will continually increase taxes until revolution/riots overturn the governments and we start all over again. History has shown us multiple times. Typically it has been due to the governemts spending too much on war-fare but I guess no governemt these says would be that silly... :

The "curse " of democracy is that the politicians need VOTES - and will promise ANYTHING and spend ANYTHING to get those. New programmes/support/pension schemes or whatever (blind flat-footed puppy dog support center anyone? ) are created, and old ones rarely closed (bad for those VOTES) until the governemts spend so much that the worker-bees says STOP (while carrying tourches and looking very angry).

It COULD be different this time... Cheers!
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Re: Ten Things to Stop Doing in 2006
Old 01-06-2006, 10:04 AM   #56
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Re: Ten Things to Stop Doing in 2006

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Originally Posted by davew894
Perhaps when we get a week off from sending money to Washington, such a fantasy would be possible.
One possible solution would be to completely withdraw from society. Be self-sufficient, survive from the sweat of your own brow. Then, you'll start to realize the benefits of living in a civilized country with a government.
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Re: Ten Things to Stop Doing in 2006
Old 01-06-2006, 10:38 AM   #57
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Re: Ten Things to Stop Doing in 2006

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Originally Posted by justin
One possible solution would be to completely withdraw from society.* Be self-sufficient, survive from the sweat of your own brow.* Then, you'll start to realize the benefits of living in a civilized country with a government.*
Sort of like the Unibomber lifestyle? We all know how that ended up.
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Re: Ten Things to Stop Doing in 2006
Old 01-06-2006, 10:43 AM   #58
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Re: Ten Things to Stop Doing in 2006

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Sort of like the Unibomber lifestyle? We all know how that ended up.
That's why I personally prefer living in a civilized country with a government with other civilized people willing to share in burden of civilized life.
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Re: Ten Things to Stop Doing in 2006
Old 01-06-2006, 07:46 PM   #59
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Re: Ten Things to Stop Doing in 2006

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Originally Posted by davew894
It absolutely is.* If you don't want to take a detailed look at your personal situation, there are numerous examples on the internet.* You can start with taxfoundation.org.
O.K. I'll do that. And according to taxfoundation.org:

Quote:
Tax Freedom Day is calculated by dividing the official government tally of all taxes collected in each year by the official government tally of all income earned in each year. Governments — federal, state and local — took 30.3% of income in 1980; 30.5% in 1990; 33.6% in 2000; and so on.
Far cry from 60%.
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Re: Ten Things to Stop Doing in 2006
Old 01-06-2006, 08:09 PM   #60
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Re: Ten Things to Stop Doing in 2006

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Originally Posted by davew894
And almost double your estimate.* They don't take into account many other taxes that are built in that I listed earlier (telephone taxes, utility taxes, toll roads, employer portion of FICA, etc.).* The Tax Foundation is relatively conservative in their estimates choosing only 'hard' numbers in their calculation.
Wow. The 18.6% calculation was an esitmate for what one four person family making $50,000 and living in NY would pay. Did you not also see the calculation for the guy making $200,000 with a tax burden around 40%? Considering how the wealthy pay most of the taxes in the US it is not surprising that the average tax burden for all tax payers leans toward the rate paid by higher income individuals. But I still haven't seen any evidence that supports your claim of 60% - even using the references you provide.

Importantly, the average tax burden calculation of ~30% is not reflective of what most people pay because of our progressive tax system - most people will pay less, and in some cases far less, then the average.
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